Augments once per session

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

As far as Passions and Rune augments, yes, I'd probably limit them to one per season or per high holy day, respectively.  But then I'd certainly make the buffs more significant - these are basically one-use buffs to be used in meaningful circumstances, to the point of maybe making their use hero-point-ish (to the point of surviving a lethal blow ala "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die").  A rune augment might give you back a rune point to be used only with a spell of that runic association. 

 

OH MY GOD! I really hate to sound like a teen age girl but I just realized that every RPG in the world needs a "My name in Inigo Montoya, you killed my father , now prepare to die" rule!

Otherwise it seems like great points have been made; that skill augments only need a realistic limitation. (use that rare skill Employ Common Sense__% ◻︎) and that  passions and runes should be "usually" limited to once a session (but once again a success roll in Employ Common Sense roll will allow more attempts). Seems to me that is why there is a referee who can make these decisions. I have a feeling that this might become a HR in my my game.

Cheers

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

OH MY GOD! I really hate to sound like a teen age girl but I just realized that every RPG in the world needs a "My name in Inigo Montoya, you killed my father , now prepare to die" rule!

Otherwise it seems like great points have been made; that skill augments only need a realistic limitation. (use that rare skill Employ Common Sense__% ◻︎) and that  passions and runes should be "usually" limited to once a session (but once again a success roll in Employ Common Sense roll will allow more attempts). Seems to me that is why there is a referee who can make these decisions. I have a feeling that this might become a HR in my my game.

Cheers

In most of my games, I clearly point out to players when their character concepts are in danger of being overturned by power-gaming.

Point buy games with advantages and disadvantages are great for that. Nothing spurs a player into action like finding out that his Dark Secret is going to be revealed [with all the in-game consequences thereof] but that you'll also be subtracting all the points he spent on that Dark Secret in character generation from his future character improvement points if he doesn't act within the strictures of his self-imposed build. [GURPS, L5R, Champions, etc.]

In a more open build game like BRP or RQ, the referee can't be so heavy handed, but there still ought to be consequences for not living up to their own build. Yanioth not taking the opportunity to smite the Lunar Empire after she's invested so much effort in her character concept and build in Revenge Daddy [character background story] and Hate Empire [actual percentile number on C-sheet] would be ridiculous.

I can't remember where I got this this phrase, but I've taken to calling your own character concept and build coming back to bite you in the ass as 'The Plot Harpoon'. As in, "That meaty *thwack* sound you just heard was the Plot Harpoon sinking in, 'Bob'..."

Edited March 18, 2019 by svensson

[Mechashef]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

As to the specific question in the top post, I would work a trade-off with players. If they will use Runes to augment one roll a session, the GM can only use their 80%+ Runes to direct character actions once per session at an appropriately dramatic time. That seems reasonable to me.

 

Thst still leaves us with the problem that a character can only “sneak” once (or twice) a session.

 

Sure we can house rule around it, but we shouldn’t have to.

This is not an unusual situation. Sneaking is quite common in many games.

 

I shall raise it in the Core Rules questions thread when I get home tonight.

[Bill the barbarian]

25 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

Sure we can house rule around it, but we shouldn’t have to.

 

Been happily doing it for the past 4 decades, can't see changing for the remaining decade or two. If you are genuinely unhappy, I do not mean to belittle your discontent. I understand and feel your pain.

Myself however, I really like the game and have for awhile. What I don't like,  I home rule. On the other hand you should have seen the amount of home ruling I had to do in the 80s with AD&D by Gygax and Arneson. Gadzooks and zounds, man!

Cheers

[svensson]

53 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

Thst still leaves us with the problem that a character can only “sneak” once (or twice) a session.

No, they can only augment a skill roll once or twice as session. The whole point here is to keep players from circumventing actually training their skills... they shouldn't rely on 'to Hell with it, I'll just make Dark Rune roll' instead of actually spending money training Sneak skill...

I don't like mechanics taking the place of thought, planning, and effort. And as a referee, I don't  put PCs in positions where mechanics have to save them.

Edited March 19, 2019 by svensson

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Mechashef said:

Thst still leaves us with the problem that a character can only “sneak” once (or twice) a session.

 

Sure we can house rule around it, but we shouldn’t have to.

This is not an unusual situation. Sneaking is quite common in many games.

Never had issues with it before, and we didn't have augments available.  Sneaking is Move Quietly. If you fail that, what do you do, e.g. try to Hide.

I'm fine with adding Hide as an augment for that roll if it fits. So far I've generally played that skill-based augments affect one roll, and they can use that skill-based augment once for the affected skill. If I was forcing a character through a sequence of multiple Move Quietly rolls, I'd need to consider why: 1) I feel they need the series of rolls; 2) they need to continue to apply augments. 

Since I play PbP, a "session" isn't relevant.  Specific Rune and passion augments carry through the activity they are applied to or one day at the longest. And they can only be rolled once during that day. Skill-based augments to another specific skill apply once and only usable once during that day (but can be used/applied to another specific skill where applicable).

[Sumath]

9 hours ago, Mechashef said:

Thst still leaves us with the problem that a character can only “sneak” once (or twice) a session.

Other posts have dealt with why this is an incorrect inference, but the other thing I wanted to mention is how long an augment can last.

If you use a Rune affinity there is no reason why the augment cannot cover several rolls. If you are trying to sneak into a stronghold, then augmenting at the beginning could provide a bonus for all subsequent rolls while you're getting past each layer of security. For an example of an extended augment, check the Contested Ground actual play video on You Tube, where Jason Durall confirms that an Air Rune augment provides improves a character's speed and mobility for the duration of a shield contest.

[PhilHibbs]

I've always thought of Rune and Passion augments as long lasting but once per session or scenario, but skill augments as being very brief (maybe just one roll) but can be thrown around like confetti. Maybe. If it becomes a problem, maybe only use it to augment skills that are below 50, or that are likely to be knocked down below 50 by opposed skill contests or other modifiers. And if the players complain that that is unfair, well, just tell them "I never roll augments for NPCs, I haven't got the time, so watch out or I might just..."

[Mechashef]

Ok, perhaps I've missed something here, so someone please point out where I've gone wrong.

 

P189 under the description for the Hide states:

Quote

For use of Hide and Move Quietly simultaneously, the adventurer should use the primary skill being attempted (Hide or Move Quietly), using the other as an augment.

P144 states:

Quote

… an ability can only be used once per session to augment a task being attempted.

 

My understanding that using a skill to augment another skill only works for one skill attempt (though I can't find the page reference atm).

 

So the manual directs player who want their character to use both Hide and Move Quietly to use one of those skills to augment the other.  The skill can only be used to augment another skill once per session, and the duration of a skill augmentation is just one attempt of the skill being augmented.

 

What have I misunderstood?

Thanks again people.

 

 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I've always thought of Rune and Passion augments as long lasting but once per session or scenario, but skill augments as being very brief (maybe just one roll) but can be thrown around like confetti. Maybe. If it becomes a problem, maybe only use it to augment skills that are below 50, or that are likely to be knocked down below 50 by opposed skill contests or other modifiers. And if the players complain that that is unfair, well, just tell them "I never roll augments for NPCs, I haven't got the time, so watch out or I might just..."

Think of invoking a rune or a passion as similar to a low level rune point pool that requires some cool-down for regeneration. Perhaps allow a second invocation at a massive disadvantage (e.g. 40 percentiles lower), which might give all but the most one-dimensional zealots a pause to consider the effects of a failed invocation. (True to my maxim to prefer "yes, but" over "impossible".)

Edited March 19, 2019 by Joerg

[Sumath]

3 hours ago, Mechashef said:

For use of Hide and Move Quietly simultaneously, the adventurer should use the primary skill being attempted (Hide or Move Quietly), using the other as an augment.

Rephrase the last few words to 'like an augment' and you're sorted. 

[el_octogono]

I think the real issue here is that Hide and Move Quietly are two separate skills... I've always found both skills redundant, and often a matter of discussion... The purpose of both skills is to go unnoticed which in real life is a single action. You won't hide behind a rock but steping over a heap of crunchy leaves... it makes no sense.

I would make augments last a scene or the same situation, for example an entire combat, or maybe a long trip overseas. Just a period of time that is narratively apropriate.

[Julian Lord]

"an ability can only be used once per session to augment a task being attempted"

ah --- this means that a single task can only be augmented once per "session" from any particular ability -- so, if you're trying to climb a particular wall, you can't use your Spider magic more than once on that wall if it fails you. But you could still use it some time later on a completely different cliff face, or even on a completely different wall on a completely different building.

It could of course be interpreted more harshly, to suppose that you couldn't use that Spider magic in augmentation more than once per "session", but grammatically that's just not what "a task" means. It means "a particular and specific challenge that needs to be overcome". So really, if climbing that damned wall is a necessary but you can't, even with your famous vaunted Spider charms, then regroup, re-plan, come back in a game session or two with a better plan, then see if it works better next time ...

[styopa]

17 hours ago, svensson said:

As to the specific question in the top post, I would work a trade-off with players. If they will use Runes to augment one roll a session, the GM can only use their 80%+ Runes to direct character actions once per session at an appropriately dramatic time. That seems reasonable to me.

Oooh, I like that.  Well played, sir.

[styopa]

15 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Been happily doing it for the past 4 decades, can't see changing for the remaining decade or two. If you are genuinely unhappy, I do not mean to belittle your discontent. I understand and feel your pain.

Myself however, I really like the game and have for awhile. What I don't like,  I home rule. On the other hand you should have seen the amount of home ruling I had to do in the 80s with AD&D by Gygax and Arneson. Gadzooks and zounds, man!

Cheers

Yeah me too but I sympathize.  Some of us have been cheerfully houseruling for decades...in fact it's sort of a hard habit to break.

But in terms of salability and attractiveness to NEW players, the rules should be effectively complete and functional WITHOUT GM HRs.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, styopa said:

Yeah me too but I sympathize.  Some of us have been cheerfully houseruling for decades...in fact it's sort of a hard habit to break.

But in terms of salability and attractiveness to NEW players, the rules should be effectively complete and functional WITHOUT GM HRs.

It's always seemed to me that if you need a page full of house rules, you're using the wrong rules. Of course, that all depends on the rules you're using. When DnD 3.0 came out, there were some things that had not been dealt with in playtesting [grapple attacks, for one famous example], and almost everybody house ruled something that vexed them. Since then, rules have become more refined and playtesting actively looks for unusual situations to attend to.

And remember folks, our whole hobby is based on 10 or pages of supplementary rules in the back of Chainmail. It can be fairly argued that everything since then has been one big house rule

[PhilHibbs]

20 hours ago, svensson said:

As to the specific question in the top post, I would work a trade-off with players. If they will use Runes to augment one roll a session, the GM can only use their 80%+ Runes to direct character actions once per session at an appropriately dramatic time. That seems reasonable to me.

I can't imagine ever using that mechanic to direct a character action. I'd instantly lose the confidence of my players if I did that, it would be game over.

[svensson]

37 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I can't imagine ever using that mechanic to direct a character action. I'd instantly lose the confidence of my players if I did that, it would be game over.

OK, the Passions rules are pretty clear on that. The mechanical downside of having a Passion [and I realize my typo there, I'll correct it] of 80%+ is that your Passions may overtake your good sense. You may [not 'must'] have your emotions take control of your actions at an appropriate and dramatic moment if the GM rules it necessary. Earth myth and heroic fiction in several genres are rife with such personal turmoil.

Consider this scene from the movie 'Tombstone'... the Earp Brothers are walking down the street when a drunken Johnny Ringo loses his temper and begins insulting them, despite the fact that he is drunk [major negative modifier to Agility and Manipulation skills] and seriously outnumbered. Though Wyatt shows that he's unarmed, both his brothers are armed and Doc Holliday is also present and looking for an excuse to kill him, but shooting down an unarmed man would have major Reputation consequences, though you could legitimately counter that Ringo's Rep is so bad that he can't damage it that much anymore.  This is an example of Passions leading to unwise actions and almost fatal consequences.

[link to video below]

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by svensson

[svensson]

3 hours ago, styopa said:

Oooh, I like that.  Well played, sir.

That should be '80%+ Passions, not Runes, Sty.

[PhilHibbs]

13 minutes ago, svensson said:

OK, the Passions rules are pretty clear on that.

I know what the rules say, I'm just not going to enforce that rule. I'm sure some groups will be fine with it. I know mine would not be.

[svensson]

31 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I know what the rules say, I'm just not going to enforce that rule. I'm sure some groups will be fine with it. I know mine would not be.

Fair enough. Your role as the GM is to play to your audience.

[Mechashef]

6 hours ago, Julian Lord said:

"an ability can only be used once per session to augment a task being attempted"

ah --- this means that a single task can only be augmented once per "session" from any particular ability -- so, if you're trying to climb a particular wall, you can't use your Spider magic more than once on that wall if it fails you. But you could still use it some time later on a completely different cliff face, or even on a completely different wall on a completely different building.

 

Thank you.  That is the nuance I'd missed.

So, for example, an adventurer could use the jump skill to augment their attack skill in multiple combats per session, but a specific Rune or Passion could only be used to augment an ability once per session.

But the jump skill will only augment one attack per use, while the Rune or Passion use to augment an attack would continue to provide its benefit until the end of the battle.

 

I presume it is a GM's decision as to whether the jump skill could be used to augment an attack skill only once per combat, or once per opponent (I'd probably lean towards just once per combat).

 

[Bill the barbarian]

19 minutes ago, Mechashef said:

But the jump skill will only augment one attack per use, while the Rune or Passion use to augment an attack would continue to provide its benefit until the end of the battle.

Or scene/activity. That is how I read it,