Is Chaosium going to support BRP anymore?

[Dredj]

This is a perfect strategy, and I subscribe your opinion. But there is a non-trivial point: licenses for successful franchises cost money. Does Chaosium have enough bucks to buy a fresh franchise? Maybe yes, maybe no. Most, if not all, authors do not give away their intellectual property out of love. They usually like to get paid for it.

It makes me wonder how much cool public domain stuff is out there that has yet to be mined. Or how many authors from other countries would love to sell their intellectual property for a wider audience.

Edited January 30, 2009 by Dredj

[Aycorn]

It makes me wonder how much cool public domain stuff is out there that has yet to be mined. Or how many authors from other countries would love to sell their intellectual property for a wider audience.

All of the worlds of myth/legend and history are public domain. GURPS/d20/et al have done Greece, Egypt, China, Japan, Celtic, Norse/Viking (okay, we know about Mythic Iceland), Biblical, "Swashbuckler," Pirate, Arabian Nights (man, I would LOVE a BRP Arabian Nights setting), American Civil War...

No, these aren't as hot as say, "Lord of the Rings" or whatever, but they're all ultra-viable.

[Dalmuti]

This is a perfect strategy, and I subscribe your opinion. But there is a non-trivial point: licenses for successful franchises cost money. Does Chaosium have enough bucks to buy a fresh franchise? Maybe yes, maybe no. Most, if not all, authors do not give away their intellectual property out of love. They usually like to get paid for it.

I know the risks of investment, and I know how hard it can be to come up with capital to start a project, but the rewards of success are real and that investment will pay off in future opportunities. Look at the crappy system used for Serenity and the BSG RPGs. They convinced the owners of the BSG franchise that they could make their game, even though the Serenity RPG tanked. Why, because they took a chance and sold them on a good design, not a good system, but a good visual design and had a slick product they could point to to seal the deal. Imagine if these games were done with the BRP? Did it cost them $$$, sure but their still in business and likely to get the next SiFi Channel hit, even though their game system sucks. If Chasioum had designed the BRP with this in mind they would be sitting in a potential gold mine, but as it stands, it was released without a a plan for the future and it's sinking like a stone.

(self help terminology alert)

Look, Chaosium needs to move out of their mother's basement, so to speak, and start to open themselves up to the possibilities of real success. They have a great product in the BRP system, that is presented like an 80's re-tread and their too risk averse to step up to the plate and swing for the fence. Find a great franchise, take out a big fat business loan and go for it. 80% of the work is already done with the BRP so most of the money will go to paying for the licensing, design, printing, and marketing (lots of marketing). Plan on loosing money for the first product but walk in with a proven success for the next one. (hell they have a proven success in CoC, it just needs a face lift) This is business 101.

If I owned the BRP I'd mortgage my mother to get the money to make this work. In fact, if they ask me I'll design and layout a mock up, and the next set of books, and they'll have a product design to compete with anything on the market today. All they would have to do is prove to me that they are serious by taking out that huge business loan, hiring a real pit bull sales person with literary/film & TV contacts to get a decent franchise when the work is ready to go, and get a decent a lawyer to seal a good deal. All I'd ask in return is a bit of cash for equipment and software, and a contract for a reasonable return off the back end (and I mean reasonable fair, not outrageous). Seriously, really, they can contact me any time.

~Dalmuti

Edited January 30, 2009 by Dalmuti

[Dredj]

All of the worlds of myth/legend and history are public domain. GURPS/d20/et al have done Greece, Egypt, China, Japan, Celtic, Norse/Viking (okay, we know about Mythic Iceland), Biblical, "Swashbuckler," Pirate, Arabian Nights (man, I would LOVE a BRP Arabian Nights setting), American Civil War...

No, these aren't as hot as say, "Lord of the Rings" or whatever, but they're all ultra-viable.

All that you said did cross my mind. But people seem to gravitate towards "name brands". Hence all the licensing.

[vagabond]

Wow, some misconceptions and misinformation here.

Chaosium did not lose RQ. As a matter of fact, RQ the system is still

there's (as much as a system can be owned). Now, if you mean

Glorantha, Chaosium did not lose it either since it really wasn't their's

to begin with. It was Greg Stafford's, and he took it with him when

he left.

Elric was sold off to a) generate some much needed revenue, and

to avoid a drawn out dispute with Moorcock.

Treating an RPG company like any old business is fraught with peril.

CoC is their cash cow, the loss leaders did lose money. I highly doubt

that they broke even with Elric!/SB5. Look how much stock they have

left and are trying to sell off.

-V

[Thalaba]

Seriously, really, they can contact me any time.

I don't think they read this forum. You might have to contact them. Well said, though.

All that you said did cross my mind. But people seem to gravitate towards "name brands". Hence all the licensing.

My personal preference would be so see original settings rather than the BRP version of the Belgariad, but I think I'm in the minority when it comes to franchises. And since people are always talking about franchises, I've got to imagine that there's some kind of statistic that shows they pay off.

I'd be happy if they's just get Rome on the shelves, though - I've been looking forward to that for 6 months now, but it seems to be lost in limbo.

Thalaba

[Dalmuti]

All that you said did cross my mind. But people seem to gravitate towards "name brands". Hence all the licensing.

The name brand is needed to re-start the company brand to compete in the market, not because I really care about the Serenity RPG or whatever. Once the re-start happens all the other opportunities mentioned are possible. But right now Chaosium seems too broke to do a proper job of marketing their product. Thats not to say I don't want good non-licensed games, I do, but I want the BRP to succeed and if that means a couple of high profile franchises then so be it.

~Dalmuti

Edited January 30, 2009 by Dalmuti

[Dalmuti]

I don't think they read this forum. You might have to contact them. Well said, though.

Thanks, I didn't think they did :ohwell:

My current contract is for the rest of the year, and keeps me pretty busy, but I seem to have more time in the Spring and Summer for other projects. I think I will contact them when the snow starts to melt, but I have a feeling that they are a very insular group and are afraid of loosing control of any part of their baby, even if it means smothering it. So my expectations are low.

~Dalmuti

[Dalmuti]

Treating an RPG company like any old business is fraught with peril.

CoC is their cash cow, the loss leaders did lose money. I highly doubt

that they broke even with Elric!/SB5. Look how much stock they have

left and are trying to sell off.

True enough, but that can be said of any business. My point is that it is time for a second cash cow and that can, should, and probably will, be another licensed product. With a new source of income they can better support original products. Chaosium though seems not prepared to take any risks now and the opportunity created with the release of the new BRP is being wasted.

~Dalmuti

Edited January 30, 2009 by Dalmuti

[RosenMcStern]

it was released without a a plan for the future and it's sinking like a stone.

Too early to say.

take out a big fat business loan and go for it.

Man, this is the WORST moment in the last 80 years to ask for a loan. Don't you read your newspapers? :confused:

If I owned the BRP I'd mortgage my mother to get the money to make this work.

No one prevents you from mortgaging your mother (except your mother, I hope) to buy the franchise and then negotiate with Chaosium for a BRP license for BRP. It costs 100 copies for each 500 copies you plan to sell, so less than 10% of the total revenue you expect from your game.

They expect third parties to publish stuff, not just to give advice. Your ideas are sensible, but if you think it's so easy to go out there and make business, just do it. I bet Dustin will love your products and grant you a license any moment. Ask him if you don't trust me.

[Mechashef]

Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong end.

Is there anyone here who aspires to be an author of fantasy novels?

A successful book with notes at the start that it developed from a BRP campaign, and a link to a website with campaign notes by the author may do wonders.

Of course that just leaves the little peopblems of getting some one to write a book and get it published. And then the big problem of getting the book stocked in shops!

[Dalmuti]

Man, this is the WORST moment in the last 80 years to ask for a loan. Don't you read your newspapers? :confused:

Not really, interest rates are very low now and despite what you may have read in the paper or on-line news, banks are still loaning out money to business at the same volume as they always have, they are just not being as helpful to individuals. :ohwell:

No one prevents you from mortgaging your mother (except your mother, I hope) to buy the franchise and then negotiate with Chaosium for a BRP license for BRP. It costs 100 copies for each 500 copies you plan to sell, so less than 10% of the total revenue you expect from your game.

They expect third parties to publish stuff, not just to give advice. Your ideas are sensible, but if you think it's so easy to go out there and make business, just do it. I bet Dustin will love your products and grant you a license any moment. Ask him if you don't trust me.

Well, I don't have a name in the industry, Chaosium does, nor do I have the contacts they do. A bank is not likely to give me a large enough business loan for a project like this, and a personal loan opens you up to too much liability, but would likely give one to Chaosium. I would have no leverage when attempting to acquire a licensing agreement to make an RPG, Chaosium would. It would be poor business to negotiate with Chaosium after the fact as I would again have no leverage. Nor would it be good for them as they would not own the license. I also am not suggesting a "side" project I'm suggesting adding a real revenue stream aka. CoC and that would require resources (people) that I alone could not provide without starting a company of my own, which would defeat the purpose of my argument. The truth is I can help but am not in a position to go at it alone.

Don't get me wrong, I have no illusions that this is an easy task nor do I miss the potential risks or claim to know everything (or even enough) about this industry. I do know about my industry and I know that Chaosium has some credibly that they can leverage because of CoC and credibility and a good idea can go a long way in any industry.

Expecting others to come up with good ideas, and produce them by themselves, to make money for your company is not a winning business strategy. Sure you will make a few dollars here and there, but none of us (or more accurately those that spend their free time to come up with these pretty impressive monographs), just don't have the time and resources to get the really big fish. No matter how many licenses Chaosium gives out they will not reap substantial benefits until they themselves step up and use their brand to acquire another CoC type license.

~Dalmuti

[rust]

I am not convinced that "big names" really would do much good. :ohwell:

The last attempts to earn money with roleplaying games for Lord of the

Rings, Narnia, Perry Rhodan (a very big name over here), Star Gate and

Star Trek were less than overwhelming successes.

On the other hand, some of the oldest original roleplaying settings, for

example Runequest's Glorantha and Traveller's Third Imperium, are still

doing comparatively well.

It may well be more prudent to invest the money into an original setting

for BRP instead of spending it to buy a costly license, I think.

[skarl]

Rather than big names andfancy licenses I would rather see genre support. Chaosium could roll out a post apocalyptic game like Omega World or a generic pulp era Hollow Earth + Hellboy-esque world, a gritty and a high fantasy world, etc. Big names don't really impress me as much as quality genre work.

[Nightshade]

This is a perfect strategy, and I subscribe your opinion. But there is a non-trivial point: licenses for successful franchises cost money. Does Chaosium have enough bucks to buy a fresh franchise? Maybe yes, maybe no. Most, if not all, authors do not give away their intellectual property out of love. They usually like to get paid for it.

Almost certainly not; and licensed products come with a great degree of other overhead on them normally, too, especially if they're well known (I used to do freelance editing for Eden Studios, so I got to see some of this from the inside).

[SDLeary]

I am not convinced that "big names" really would do much good. :ohwell:

The last attempts to earn money with roleplaying games for Lord of the

Rings, Narnia, Perry Rhodan (a very big name over here), Star Gate and

Star Trek were less than overwhelming successes.

On the other hand, some of the oldest original roleplaying settings, for

example Runequest's Glorantha and Traveller's Third Imperium, are still

doing comparatively well.

It may well be more prudent to invest the money into an original setting

for BRP instead of spending it to buy a costly license, I think.

This is probably the best strategy. The biggest issue I think is that Chaosium is now essentially all Operations and Editorial. They have one creator on staff, and he seems to be mostly a fiction writer (William Jones). Expecting them to be able to pull together/create a world is a long shot. It is literally up to third parties for a world. Could they take a business loan and hire more staff? Perhaps, but I'm not sure the Wizards Attic stuff has cleared their financial liability records yet. I'm not sure they could qualify.

A world would almost certainly have to come from Us or from a third party company. Which would mean a level of polish and creativity in a draft that would be able to convince Chaosium that it would worth it to take a chance on publishing.

SDLeary

[RosenMcStern]

banks are still loaning out money to business at the same volume as they always have, they are just not being as helpful to individuals. :ohwell:

What is your source of info about this? Did you ever take loans as a company manager? In my regular job I have hard everyday evidence that banks are less inclined to give loans to companies, too.

a personal loan opens you up to too much liability, but would likely give one to Chaosium.

Dunno how it works in California, but here banks loan money to companies (at least small ones) only if a) the company's finance is healthy (they don't even know that something like "name in the industry" exists) the CEO or some stockholder signs a liability agreement in case the loan is not repaid.

It would be poor business to negotiate with Chaosium after the fact as I would again have no leverage.

Chaosium does not negotiate licenses. The conditions are already fixed, are rather favorable and are there for anyone to read.

Nor would it be good for them as they would not own the license. I also am not suggesting a "side" project I'm suggesting adding a real revenue stream aka. CoC

Did you check whether CoC started as a side project back in the days?

[NickMiddleton]

Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong end.

Is there anyone here who aspires to be an author of fantasy novels?

A successful book with notes at the start that it developed from a BRP campaign, and a link to a website with campaign notes by the author may do wonders.

Of course that just leaves the little peopblems of getting some one to write a book and get it published. And then the big problem of getting the book stocked in shops!

Chaosium are already in the book trade with their Cthulhu fiction line - but as their various forays in to more game related fiction over the years have shown its a VERY tough market to crack. I think a BETTER approach, especially given that the requirements of a role playing campaign setting and a setting for prose fiction are different, would be to build a decent setting, and then get authors to write stories in the setting...

Nick

[Verderer]

It occurred to me, would there be any idea for Chaosium to co-operate with some of the game companies that were left hanging out there with the d20 license, when D&D 4th edition came out?

For example, Green Ronin has been less than enthusiastic about jumping in the badn wagon with the 4th edition, and their relatively popular campaign Freeport has been moving towards generic statless sourcebooks with companions for various game systems. They haven't made an RQ or BRP one yet, more's the pity, despite there having been some requests on the forum for it. I feel there could be some mutual benefit, if the two companies did produce such a book? GR provides the campaign, and Chaosium the rules, sort of thing?

GR has other campaigns too which might be interesting. For example, Thieves World campaign (the original TW was for various systems, including RQ, I think?) Or maybe the Black Company?

Of course, lots depend on what said company is planning to do in the future, at the moment it seems GR is hanging in a kind of limbo. Lots of game companies are in similar situation, I wager? So why not pick the companies with the most promising and original d20 campaigns (I know at least some exist!), and together with the company convert the campaigns into BRP?

In general, I agree that BRP needs some high profile campaign to lift it from relative obscurity. CoC is too much identified as game of its own, something new is needed.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Verderer

[Kyle Aaron]

I think that before anyone decides to give advice to a game company they ought to write and publish for sale (not free) an rpg book. Pdf is fine. The point is to begin a project and finish it - ideas are easy, complete products hard - and have a significant number of people - not just your friends and family - willing to pay money for it.

It ain't an easy thing. Not everyone can do it, though most gamers seem to think they could. Most of those commenting are like vegetarians offering recipes for steak and kidney pud.

It doesn't require great qualifications or years of experience, but it does require a dedicated effort for hours each day over some months, and an ability to be able to put up with people giving you shit about it all.

Edited January 31, 2009 by Kyle Aaron

[Verderer]

Kyle, I don't quite see your point, Chaosium is the business after all? And have been for decades. They have the knowhow to produce game books, and indeed they seem to do so very well (CoC).

I don't see why we can't offer our opinions and advice, even if many of us have never produced a single book? We have years of gaming under our belts, and we know what we want and like, wouldn't you agree?

Or did I miss your point?

[Agentorange]

It occurred to me, would there be any idea for Chaosium to co-operate with some of the game companies that were left hanging out there with the d20 license, when D&D 4th edition came out?

GR has other campaigns too which might be interesting. For example, Thieves World campaign (the original TW was for various systems, including RQ, I think?) Or maybe the Black Company?

In general, I agree that BRP needs some high profile campaign to lift it from relative obscurity. CoC is too much identified as game of its own, something new is needed.

This has already happened in a very minor way. Goodman Games has acquired a license to produce Call of Cthulhu supplements and has one out already. Certainly it's an avenue that Chaosium should be exploring. However for BRP to prosper they need to get some more in house material out fast. Noticably ( imo ) extra monsters and spells as the BRP rules book was extremely light on both.

Now this doesn't need to be a major exercise for them. if you go back through the various incarnations of BRP a lot of Monsters have been produced. Problem is that they're scattered across a lot of different products many of which are long since out of print. Thinking of RQ3 alone there's a good few that haven't made it into the BRP rulebook, compile them together with things from other supplements and thats a start. Now veteran BRP players here will be saying " hey I've got all that stuff already, why do I want to buy it again " The point is though a newcomer won't have that stuff, and isn't going to want to fork out $30 for an out of print copy of a RQ3 product just to get a stats block for a panther....

....On the other hand a newcomer might well tempted by a BRP companion that gives him new monsters, new magic ec

EDIT just dug out my old copy of the creatures book from RQ3. This alone gives us: Allosaurus, Ant ( giant ), Baboon, Bandersnatch, Basilisk, Beetle ( giant ), Behemeth, Cattle, Chimpanzee, Chonchon, Deer, Elephant, Fachan, Gorgon, Grampus, Harpy, Headhanger, Hellion, Jabberwock, Lamia Lizard ( rock ), Manticore, Nymph ( various ), Octopus, Ogre, Panther, Plesiosaur, Satyr, Sea Serpent, Spirit ( various ), Stoorworm, Toad ( cliff ), Whale ( various ), Wraith, Wyrm, Wyvern.

Now some of these might be considered Gloranthan, simply change the names to Lizard ( giant ) and Toad (giant ) and problem solved.

Bear in mind that RQ was a fantasy role playing game yet all of these could be used in any Real Earth campaign, eg time travel, colonial, swashbuckler, ancients etc etc

These Are all drawn from real earth mythology and so could be used semi historical campaigns where magical creatures exist

See what I mean, thats just one selection from the old RQ book, involving non gloranthan monsters ( no copyright clash, hurrah ! ), get some artwork done for each creature, plunder the old RQ Ninja and Vikings campaign packs for more and you've already far surpassed whatever the BRP rulesbook has to offer.

Got to go, so I'll talk about magic'n'stuff when I get back

Edited January 31, 2009 by Agentorange

[Dalmuti]

I think that before anyone decides to give advice to a game company they ought to write and publish for sale (not free) an rpg book. Pdf is fine. The point is to begin a project and finish it - ideas are easy, complete products hard - and have a significant number of people - not just your friends and family - willing to pay money for it.

It ain't an easy thing. Not everyone can do it, though most gamers seem to think they could. Most of those commenting are like vegetarians offering recipes for steak and kidney pud.

It doesn't require great qualifications or years of experience, but it does require a dedicated effort for hours each day over some months, and an ability to be able to put up with people giving you shit about it all.

I'm not sure what to make of a comment like this. If you are referring to my posts I can only say that I have not suggested creating anything or that it is easy, only that if Chaosium is going to have the staff to fully support all of the fan based work and fully support the BRP they need another money making product. My idea, which some are calling advise, is to license a known, popular set of works and apply the BRP system to it. Something that already has a following to draw upon. Chaosium did this in it's early years and it was successful as we can see with CoC, which is a licensed product that had a literary following before becoming an RPG.

Look, if we take the attitude that no one can speak out unless they have written and sold a successful role playing game, regardless of what other experience they may have, is ridiculous. It's the classic apples and oranges type of argument ~ "I see you can draw an apple, but since I don't see any oranges in your portfolio I going to hire someone else...". It would likely preclude even yourself from commenting...

~Dalmuti

[Dalmuti]

What is your source of info about this? Did you ever take loans as a company manager? In my regular job I have hard everyday evidence that banks are less inclined to give loans to companies, too.

Dunno how it works in California, but here banks loan money to companies (at least small ones) only if a) the company's finance is healthy (they don't even know that something like "name in the industry" exists) the CEO or some stockholder signs a liability agreement in case the loan is not repaid.

I admit I am no expert in this, however, the company I am with is having no problems at all getting loans for projects. The point I was making is that Chaosium is an established company with a credit history. I, as an individual, am not. A bank will loan money to a company with a sufficiently positive credit history and proven income, even in this current economic climate. Of course if Chaosium is a credit risk they will not get a loan.

My comment about getting a loan was to acknowledge that going after a new licensed franchise would be expensive, but that if successful would create the resources required to support the BRP better, which was what this thread was about to begin with.

Chaosium does not negotiate licenses. The conditions are already fixed, are rather favorable and are there for anyone to read.

As I believe I said, the point of this exercise was to create a substantial second cash cow for Chaosium, something they would own directly. I have a plan for myself and it does not include starting a RPG company.

Did you check whether CoC started as a side project back in the days?

Don't have to as it's not relevant. What is relevant is that it was a licensed product that had a literary following before becoming an RPG. I don't know how Chaosium got the license from the Lovecraft people, but I would guess it involved raising some money to purchase it. It is my case in point.

My ideas, as presented in this thread, are with incomplete information about Chaosium as a company. I have no idea whats going on in their offices, in their balance books, or in their minds, only that they are doing a less than spectacular job of marketing and supporting the BRP. Their doing fine with CoC, but its obviously not enough to fully support the BRP as well.

My experience in the creative field tell me that the idea that I laid out has a good chance of working. I could very well be wrong, but I don't think so.

In any case I respect your experience and comments and I think I can say we both hope that Chaosium is able to succeed enough to do a better job of supporting the BRP.

~Dalmuti

[Guest Vile Traveller]

[...] build a decent setting, and then get authors to write stories in the setting..

Nick sums up well what a lot of other posters have said, and it's something I agree with. I have not seen any licensed settings do well for any RPG over a sustained period, CoC seems to be an exception ratherthan the rule in this regard. They seem to be something which companies have to keep rolling out, one after another. I don't know if this is profitable, maybe it is, but it sure isn't fun for anyone who actually buys into that setting only to see it dropped a year down the line for the latest flash-in-the-pan.

As for producing an original setting, a fiction author might be the best way to go. A lot of beautiful things in the real world are designed by artists and made to work by technical people. Give an engineer a bridge to design and 99% of the time it will turn out identical to every other bridge. The same applies to RPGs - too many settings are designed from the system up, which I think is an error. BRP is so marvellously flexible and modular that any setting will work with the system. I have played and run in every conceivable setting I or my co-players have ever thought of in the last 25 years, all with very little work as far as the system was concerned.

So, to sum up: Chaosium, get someone to write up a great, original setting for BRP (fantasy, because that sells, although I prefer SF), and go on from there. Once the world exists, it will be filled.

Oh, yes, it will be filled. :innocent:

Edited February 1, 2009 by Vile