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Is Chaosium going to support BRP anymore?


danbuter

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Kyle, I don't quite see your point, Chaosium is the business after all? And have been for decades. They have the knowhow to produce game books, and indeed they seem to do so very well (CoC).

"Chaosium" is just a company, which produces nothing; people produce the books. The people involved in 1980 are not the people involved in 2009, so the experiences of those in 1980 don't help the people of 2009.

I don't see why we can't offer our opinions and advice, even if many of us have never produced a single book? We have years of gaming under our belts, and we know what we want and like, wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely. But now we're talking about a different thing.

I was responding to the people bitching that Chaosium was taking ages to put things out; it's hard to produce a finished product, and that's a thing most gamers don't recognise.

Now you're talking about the quality of the products once published, which we as gamers, however lazy or disorganised we may be, are certainly able to judge.

If people were saying, "Chaosium has published X, and it's crap because of Y" then whether those people had produced anything themselves would be irrelevant. But people aren't saying that, they're saying, "those lazy bastards haven't produced anything, why if they gave me, some anonymous geek online with no experience, an office and a stack of cash, I could produce brilliant stuff quickly! It's easy!"

if Chaosium is going to have the staff to fully support all of the fan based work and fully support the BRP they need another money making product. My idea, which some are calling advise, is to license a known, popular set of works and apply the BRP system to it. Something that already has a following to draw upon.

This requires a large spending of cash, and taking a big risk with that money. By the time the book is ready the fad for the license material may have passed (see Starship Troopers, Jericho), or the licenser may pull the plug (see Stargate), or it may just flop (see Hercules and Xena).

Depending which license you go for, it might cost $10,000 or more. Then there's the salary for the people working on it, and the marketing, and so on, which could all easily run to $50,000 for the first book, and $5,000 per book thereafter. Optimistically they make $5 a book sale in profits, so must sell 10,000 copies to break even. You offering the cash? What's that? Take a loan? The bank wants collateral, will you risk your house for this game?

It's a lot simpler and less risky to come up with original material. And that takes time. You can get it done quickly but then you have to pay people for that. The 1-10c a word most rpg writers get (2c/word at Mongoose, for example) isn't really an incentive for them to give up their day job and write full-time.

That's the way things go in real life, everything from your home groceries to an rpg company - you have to invest some combination of money and time. If you don't have a lot of money, well then you'll have to put in time. Which means they take ages to put their books out.

Honestly, if rpg writing is so easy then you don't need to wait for them to publish stuff, do you? You can write it yourself. What's that? You have other things to do? You have to earn a living as well? Guess what, so do they. Most people involved in rpg companies don't have it as their full-time job. Basically you have a few hundred people employed at Wizards, then you have Steve Jackson, Sean Punch, Kev Sembieda, a few people at WW, and everyone is doing it part-time and out of sheer love for the hobby.

There just isn't a lot of money in rpgs. And writing a complete product is a bloody difficult thing to do.

Tiwesdæg Clíewen - adventuring in a world where magic is magical, and monsters are monstrous

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Yeah, sure, I don't expect everyone at Chaosium was around 20 years ago. Maybe none of them were. But that wasn't exactly what I meant. Surely people at Chaosium would have transferred their knowledge and experience, to their successors (at least parts of it), so that they wouldn't each have to invent the wheel again, so to speak? Companies usually do this, in my experience.

And by producing I didn't mean that Chaosium stuff actually writes everything they print, I know full well they commission writers to do the actual writing and drawing etc, just like any publishing house. I could indeed start writing them material, if they commissioned me. Getting paid for your writing is part of the deal, you don't suggest all those writers work for free just for the love of gaming, do you? So yes, writing is really that easy, if you get your commission. (Note that I didn't say anything about the QUALITY of my writing...:))

And finally I'd liek to correct you that I wasn't talking about criticising a published product, I was saying that as experienced gamers we know what kind of games/books we'd like Chaosium to write, so we can offer them advice and ideas. And we have bought one RPG product after another (and played them to pieces), and have seen game systems raise and fall, so I think we're pretty damn qualified to advice Chaosium which ideas would work, and what they should go publishing. And I'd go even so far as to say that our experience allows to criticise Chaosium for sitting on their hands and doing very little about making BRP a success (as far as any RPG can be a success these days).

And speaking of experince, in my opinion it's pretty much an established fact that no game licenses based on a movie or a TV series (most of them suck bigtime anyway) will carry very far, I can't really remember any that would have lasted long. Many novels have done very well, some not. But they could go licensing an existing RPG campaign, which is what I was talking about earlier with my d20 rambling. Other than that, I'd agree it is best to come up with your own original game world. But they're the hardest and most time consuming to develop.

Edited by Verderer
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It actually a very simple matter.

If they dont make books the system will strangle itself out and cease its run. BRP will falter, it will go away and people will go to Mongoose or other systems instead of buying BRP, afterall why put $40 into a book that sees no support and the only publications come from fans who submit work to be published by Chaosium?

Its not like Steven King is writing Mongographs, or even Dan Abnett. Its god damn CS Barnhart, whoever that is. (Thats me btw).

Whereas I can go buy MRQ, they still make books, they have a OGL so other companies make books for them and its nearly 100% compatible with BRP and CoC games (and if you think not, then you probably dont think water and ice are compatible either).

Of if the make books, or lease the system, they risk losing money as well as making money. If by some means they make Star God of Anchorage Alaska: The Role Playing Game! and they sell a bazillion copies an dit is only half decent, they make a fortune and are considered industry geniuses and collect an Origins Award (afterall, who really cares about the Ennies?).

But if they get the license to Terminator: War of Tomorrow (A RPG of Man against Machine) and it is well written, beautiful books and it totally flops, then they are considered a horrible company.

So they either die without a fight or they die a gruesome horrible death with a fight, but just might come out on top.

So the issue isnt a licensed title or not, its any title. Something unique that will get books sold. Not Cthulhu in Space or Cthulhu and the Holy Grail, or Cthulhu Steam Punk, or Cthulhu Cyber Punk, or Cthulhu Civil War or even Cthulhu Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer.

Something new, something unique. And I dont think Fantasy is going to cut it, after all Stormbringer, Elric, Elfquest, and others havent made it for Chaosium in years. However, Planetary may be the way to go. A lite Sci-fi setting based on the 1920s style of that genre. Heck yeah, I am still waiting for that book to come out.

But I also think the vagueness of BRP is hurting the sales or new material. Sometimes you want hard defined rules, sometimes you dont, BRP really never gives you any.

But only time will tell, and im here waiting to see what goes next.

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I was responding to the people bitching that Chaosium was taking ages to put things out; it's hard to produce a finished product, and that's a thing most gamers don't recognise.

Were people bitching? I didn't see that. I saw that people were concerned that BRP was already dying due to the non-publication of source material, but that's a different thing, isn't it?

If people were saying, "Chaosium has published X, and it's crap because of Y" then whether those people had produced anything themselves would be irrelevant. But people aren't saying that, they're saying, "those lazy bastards haven't produced anything, why if they gave me, some anonymous geek online with no experience, an office and a stack of cash, I could produce brilliant stuff quickly! It's easy!"

Were they? Again, I can't remember anyone saying that.

That's the way things go in real life, everything from your home groceries to an rpg company - you have to invest some combination of money and time. If you don't have a lot of money, well then you'll have to put in time. Which means they take ages to put their books out.

But, if the supplements have already been written and submitted and are not being released, then where is the delay?

Honestly, if rpg writing is so easy then you don't need to wait for them to publish stuff, do you? You can write it yourself. What's that? You have other things to do? You have to earn a living as well? Guess what, so do they. Most people involved in rpg companies don't have it as their full-time job. Basically you have a few hundred people employed at Wizards, then you have Steve Jackson, Sean Punch, Kev Sembieda, a few people at WW, and everyone is doing it part-time and out of sheer love for the hobby.

Mongoose seem to be churning out product at a fast rate ...

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But, if the supplements have already been written and submitted and are not being released, then where is the delay?

Is that the case? Has anyone submitted a finished monograph and is still waiting for it to be released? Or do they not have any finished ones read to go?

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The board ate my last, lengthy reply to this, so I'll try a shorter one.

1. Yes, I submitted one (ATA). It still isn't out in print, just pdf.

2. Reasons have been:

a. Chaosium's new printer is a PITA.

b. Ability of remaining staff to deal with them (in LW's absence) has been challenging. I finally had to do it (now waiting to hear. They wanted a very precise format that they were not communicating well and that was not easily compatible with modern MS Word 2008. I had to redo the whole thing as a Word 2003 document and then buy Acrobat Pro to get the document just right. (This is a change from prior monograph practice).

c. Monographs don't generate enough revenue to merit outsourcing art and/or layout.

d. Outsourcing art and layout is expensive (moreso than some of the commenters seem to realize).

e. Professional level layout and art is so expensive that to merit it, a book needs to be able to sell in the thousands of copies, not the hundreds. ATA is one of the best selling monographs and in six months, has sold just over 100 copies. My last CofC one got a favorable mainstream review and, notwithstanding this bump, has sold about 150. The market just isn't that big.

f. To generate about 500 copies for direct sale of a softcover gaming book with good layout and decent art/cartography is about a $5,000-$7,000 proposition. At $20/book you need to sell 500 copies to clear a few thousand dollars. Monographs start making money after about 20 copies.

g. Prior licensees (e.g., old days Pagan) that were able to put out books

that were well laid out, well written (.03/word) and well-illustrated heavily relied on the fact that some of the authors were the same guys as the artists and layout people. When they were busy, products sat idle.

h. Bottom line: In my experience, for licensees to put out quality books and not take a bath, layout and art cannot be outsourced for money up front. Money up front to outside people for these services jacks up the necessary sales of books to turn a profit into the thousands, because of how expensive it is.

3. Chaosium was going to push the BRP line at last summer's cons but didn't go due to travel costs. Cons are the place for a small publisher to do a cost effective rollout. Hence, it fell down the priority list.

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Now this doesn't need to be a major exercise for them. if you go back through the various incarnations of BRP a lot of Monsters have been produced. Problem is that they're scattered across a lot of different products many of which are long since out of print. Thinking of RQ3 alone there's a good few that haven't made it into the BRP rulebook, compile them together with things from other supplements and thats a start. Now veteran BRP players here will be saying " hey I've got all that stuff already, why do I want to buy it again " The point is though a newcomer won't have that stuff, and isn't going to want to fork out $30 for an out of print copy of a RQ3 product just to get a stats block for a panther....

Got to go, so I'll talk about magic'n'stuff when I get back

I agree that some generic BRP supplements would be awesome. Monograph or actual print, either would be cool, though I'd prefer an actual book (I realize the difficulties in such). Heck, they could do a monster book like HERO did its beastiary-real world creatures, then various fantasy tropes like undead, intelligent races, dragons, etc, then move on to mutants, sci-fi beasties, and more.

I think that would be a great idea.

In addition, I think any generic BRP supplements would be good. I am not bothered by settings... I'm so pressed for time these days, I only run one setting, my own homebrew. I do raid other settings for material but I much prefer crunch to fluff, personally. I'd like to see more generically useful supplements, rather than ones tied to a specific setting.

As for magic, well... that's what my Monograph is all about... :thumb:

Edited by Tywyll
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not easily compatible with modern MS Word 2008. I had to redo the whole thing as a Word 2003 document and then buy Acrobat Pro to get the document just right.

This is why we use only OpenOffice and Adobe products. No Micro$oft Incompatibleware :D

Monographs start making money after about 20 copies.

Maybe some more if some of the artwor is commissioned, but your point is correct.

In my experience, for licensees to put out quality books and not take a bath, layout and art cannot be outsourced for money up front. Money up front to outside people for these services jacks up the necessary sales of books to turn a profit into the thousands, because of how expensive it is.

In any case, third parties can produce books that are more ambitious than a monograph without incredible expenses. Quality is lower but still acceptable (do not forget that we old RQers have a Mystic Word of Power to make our artwork look nicer: DOBISKY)

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Also, I recall at least Jason has some

issues with Chaosium that needs straightening out before Interplanetary

goes further.

You know, I've been biting my tongue for a while, but it's become obvious to me at this point that things aren't going to get straightened out.

Barring a miraculous change in the current situation, Interplanetary will not be proceeding as a BRP project.

I've done everything I can to try to work with Chaosium, but the lack of communication and financial issues are insurmountable obstacles.

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You know, I've been biting my tongue for a while, but it's become obvious to me at this point that things aren't going to get straightened out.

Barring a miraculous change in the current situation, Interplanetary will not be proceeding as a BRP project.

I've done everything I can to try to work with Chaosium, but the lack of communication and financial issues are insurmountable obstacles.

That blows.

Any other systems in particular? Perhaps you can do it as a MRQ OGL book? :D

I hope someone picks this up, I really want to buy this game.

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You know, I've been biting my tongue for a while, but it's become obvious to me at this point that things aren't going to get straightened out.

Barring a miraculous change in the current situation, Interplanetary will not be proceeding as a BRP project.

I've done everything I can to try to work with Chaosium, but the lack of communication and financial issues are insurmountable obstacles.

Really sorry to hear that, Jason. You'd have probably had a sale to me on that one.

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It is situations like the above that make you wonder how serious Chaosium is about BRP. If they really are having issues you would think that they would be scrambling to put out product and talking to people about supporting the line. CoC might be a big seller, but it will obviously always outsell a game with little or no support, especially when the company isn't working with people willing to support the game.

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Barring a miraculous change in the current situation, Interplanetary will not be proceeding as a BRP project.

I've done everything I can to try to work with Chaosium, but the lack of communication and financial issues are insurmountable obstacles.

That's a real SHAME :(

Anything we can do about this? Kidnapping Charlie at Castle Stahleck and feeding him vegetarian food until he publishes the book?

Does this mean that it is going to see the light under another system? Perhaps another publisher? Or that it is cancelled?

Have you considered self-publishing? It is a viable option nowadays, as several people (including me) pointed out.

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Any other systems in particular?

Haven't decided as of yet.

I have informed Chaosium of my intent and am waiting to see if they're going to try to salvage the business relationship.

Perhaps you can do it as a MRQ OGL book? :D

Umm.... no.

I hope someone picks this up, I really want to buy this game.

I really wanted to finish it and publish it for BRP.

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Does this mean that it is going to see the light under another system?

Probably, with an existing system or perhaps under the %-based system I've been working on inspired by what I learned from writing BRP.

Perhaps another publisher?

Either someone else or self-published.

Or that it is cancelled?

It was never officially announced. `

Have you considered self-publishing?

Yes.

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You know, I've been biting my tongue for a while, but it's become obvious to me at this point that things aren't going to get straightened out.

Barring a miraculous change in the current situation, Interplanetary will not be proceeding as a BRP project.

I've done everything I can to try to work with Chaosium, but the lack of communication and financial issues are insurmountable obstacles.

Ouch, this is worrisome. Like most of us long term Chaosium fans, I expect delays, and am not surprised if things are released "sluggishly". Just look how long it took for BRP to get released, and some people bought "zero" out of fear that the book might never be published.

But when the author of BRP is having problems communicating with the company, let alone getting something published, I start to worry that Chaosium might be shooting itself in the foot again.

If you are having problems working something out with Chaosium, and you wrote BRP, what is it going to be like for others?

Very worrisome.

Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself.

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First Deadlands and now Interplanetary, this doesn't look good. Deadlands I'm not too worried about, the whole zombie thing has never really floated my boat ( though I probably would of bought it, because I'm anal when it comes to collecting BRP related stuff :D )

Interplanetary though, well, I was really looking forward to that. Financial wrangles ? I'm not qualified to comment. But communication problems? How long does it take to email someone.

EDIT: Jason ,are you at liberty to discuss the issues further ? I mean if we all mailed Charlie Krank and went " Hey, sort it out ! we want to spend our money on your product " would it help ?

Edited by Agentorange
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I can't speak about the problems Interplanetary has had. I've had hit and miss with Dustin, but my most recent communication resulted in a response the very next day. *shrug* Granted, I was just touching base so that might have had something to do with it.

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I can't speak about the problems Interplanetary has had. I've had hit and miss with Dustin, but my most recent communication resulted in a response the very next day. *shrug* Granted, I was just touching base so that might have had something to do with it.

Dustin is almost always prompt in replying to emails or phone calls.

I've known him personally for years (he even crashed at my place for a few days while on a road trip through Seattle when I lived there), and I consider him a friend.

He is, unfortunately, not the problem, and is so geographically removed from the home office that his role as a problem-solver is somewhat limited.

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It would be very sad if all the effort that went into making BRP a reality took a nosedive through lack of 'official' support. Monographs are all well and good, but something straight out of the Chaosium stable door would be much better all-round.

I don't think a licensed property is the way to go. The world has changed a great deal since Chaosium blazed the trail back in the 80s. Film and computer game rights make RPG licensing difficult and costly, and I doubt Chaosium's in the financial position (bank loan/no bank loan; credit crunch/no credit crunch) to pursue the option. To make a licensed property work you need collateral, a sound business model, some industry clout and the ability to churn-out supporting product at a decent and steady rate to please both fans and licensor. Its not easy.

A new, Chaosium-brand setting is the way to go, I feel, and Chaosium was interested in using Gwenthia. That never took off because the group behind Gwenthia never received promised proposals and contracts, despite having several talks with Charlie K. I'm honestly not sure if there's mileage in revisiting that as an angle, given Jason's comments on Interplanetary. Gwenthia, as a project, has stalled owing to other commitments elsewhere, but there's a huge amount of material that could, in the right circumstances, be easily prepped and handed to Chaosium for production. It all boils down to communication, commitment and evidence on both sides to make it all work.

I'm going to ponder on all of this. I talk to Charlie quite regularly, but I need to talk to the Gwenthia Design Mechanism too. I know that everyone in the Design Mechanism is a big BRP fan, and although a consensus had been reached to use the RQ SRD, things have changed, so maybe its high time we thought again. But everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, would hinge on some solid commitments from the Chaosium side.

There's always hope.

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I don't think a licensed property is the way to go. The world has changed a great deal since Chaosium blazed the trail back in the 80s. Film and computer game rights make RPG licensing difficult and costly, and I doubt Chaosium's in the financial position (bank loan/no bank loan; credit crunch/no credit crunch) to pursue the option. ...

I've been busy at work so missed a few days of responding.

I don't disagree, though I do think that if as you say "...a sound business model, some industry clout and the ability to churn-out supporting product at a decent and steady rate to please both fans and licensor.", a licensed product can work to bring new people to your brand, the BRP. I've already made a case and theres no need to re-state it.

It does seem though that Chaosium is not any of those things right now, so a push like this would likely fail. I'd go as far to say that even an original setting would likely fail because of a lack of... well, you fill in the blank here.:ohwell:

I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread that I was open to doing some layout and design, and even find and work with new artists to help out in a re-launch of the BRP. Even with this recent news I'm still interested, but I will take a wait and see kind of approach for now. I mention this again because this is one thing that I really think will help BRP compete in this new market. Poor delivery (design in this case) really does make a difference, and good design is worth every penny spent.

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I'm going to ponder on all of this. I talk to Charlie quite regularly, but I need to talk to the Gwenthia Design Mechanism too. I know that everyone in the Design Mechanism is a big BRP fan, and although a consensus had been reached to use the RQ SRD, things have changed, so maybe its high time we thought again. But everything, and I mean EVERYTHING, would hinge on some solid commitments from the Chaosium side.

Well Loz, you know I'd rewrite all the existing creatures, stats and rules in a flash to get Gwenthia published by Chaosium... but I'm not hopeful they'll be able to truly commit themselves.

Its been ten months since I submitted Rome, and since you helped edit the final manuscript you know exactly how much material it contained and its state of readiness for the final step of art and layout. It was tightly proofed and should have been ready to roll. Granted it was big, but they've still not contacted me to clarify whether they want me to strip it down, or even if they actually want it.

After much deliberation I'm now looking at withdrawing my submission and self publishing, although I'd much prefer for it to be released by Chaosium. To whit, I've trawled the net for as much royalty-free art as I could find. Unfortunately that'll mean a distinct bias towards neo-classical 18th C b/w illustrations. My biggest frustration is rewriting all the elegant rules I came up with for magic, chariot racing and the monsters/creatures, which were designed specifically for BRP.

I'm no layout editor, and I'd still love to see the little Chaosium logo on it... but I've reached the point where I want to (need to) see two years of research and hard work actually get into print.

Hey Jason, if you're going down the same road perhaps we could collaborate to produce our own line of d% compatible supplements, sharing the same style of book layout and POD distributer? PM me if you are interested!

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