Is Chaosium going to support BRP anymore?

[Nightshade]

Whether they paid Jason or Loz is their business, and only theirs (Jason's or Loz's I mean). If anybody suggested we should buy BRP to help Jason get his money, he was wrong. Jason will get what is due to him because Charlie & Co. are honest guys. Period. In what timeframe they get it is another story, and I'll not hold my breath. Sorry.

Whether we should buy more BRP is not linked to this problem. We buy games because we like to play (or simply own them). We like BRP because it is a good game, not because Charlie or Greg are good people (they are). I am sure Gary Gygax was a splendid person - I am on good terms with one of his former employees in another Internet community, and he never complained about the salary he got. This does not make me like D&D.

You're assuming a false symmetry here. While one doesn't usual buy a game because of the people who put it out, its perfectly legitimate to not care to purchase products that will put money in the hands of people you don't want to put it into. That's fundamentally what most boycotts are about.

[rust]

I am sometimes amazed at how easy it is on the net for someone ( in this in case me ) to say one thing and for people to interpret it in a totally different manner....

Sorry if I did misunderstand you, sometimes my English fails me.

[Agentorange]

Sorry if I did misunderstand you, sometimes my English fails me.

That's Ok, the net is an imperfect medium for communication and mistakes are easily made by all and sundry ( including myself )

[Jason D]

Charlie's gotten in touch with me. I'm now cautiously waiting to see what comes of it.

By all means, though, a boycott of their products would be a terrible idea.

The publishing industry is currently hurting mightily, and cutting off sales is the quickest way to kill any company and guarantee no one gets paid, ever.

My apologies to all for even making this semi-public.

[Nightshade]

Charlie's gotten in touch with me. I'm now cautiously waiting to see what comes of it.

By all means, though, a boycott of their products would be a terrible idea.

The publishing industry is currently hurting mightily, and cutting off sales is the quickest way to kill any company and guarantee no one gets paid, ever.

My apologies to all for even making this semi-public.

I don't know, Jason, I think you were doing a service; the very fact that Chaosium, a company that while it has had spotty success, is not known for being malign or deliberately leaving people to twist in the breeze left you in this situation leaves people, I think, with a clearer idea of just how dodgy working in this industry can be. I think that's doing some people who might not have a clear idea what they're getting into a favor.

[frogspawner]

...making this semi-public... ...Charlie's gotten in touch with me.

Unrelated events? Or cause-and-effect?

[vagabond]

I don't know, Jason, I think you were doing a service; the very fact that Chaosium, a company that while it has had spotty success, is not known for being malign or deliberately leaving people to twist in the breeze left you in this situation leaves people, I think, with a clearer idea of just how dodgy working in this industry can be. I think that's doing some people who might not have a clear idea what they're getting into a favor.

Maybe not malignant, but ask around - "deliberately leaving people to twist

in the breeze" has been par for the course for some time. I believe Loz

mentioned still not having been paid for the Hawkmoon mono - $500 !!

For two years now? And Loz sees Charlie at least, what, twice a year

face to face? And he's not alone in that lack of payment regard. Look

at all of the other authors who haven't heard a peep about their submissions,

even posting on this thread.

Chaosium is indeed in a predicament right now, both cash flow and staffing

issues. And, perish the thought that they cannot come up with $500, at

least communicate with the people you owe. And that is where the problem

still lies. So, yes, they definitely have been "deliberately leaving people to

twist in the breeze".

-V

[Nightshade]

Maybe not malignant, but ask around - "deliberately leaving people to twist

in the breeze" has been par for the course for some time. I believe Loz

The problem is with the word "deliberate". The fact is, most game companies have cash flow problems on a regular basis; its all too common to not have the choice not to at least temporarily stif someone, just the choice of who, and whether you manage to keep track of how long you've done it.

I'm not saying that this is acceptable, but it seems to happen to one extent or another to rather a lot of game companies, and that means the chances are that with even the best intentions on the part of people at the other end, it'll happen to you sometime, probably more than once if you work in this industry (and of course that's not even counting how often you'll get bit by pay-on-publication...)

[vagabond]

The problem is with the word "deliberate". The fact is, most game companies have cash flow problems on a regular basis; its all too common to not have the choice not to at least temporarily stif someone, just the choice of who, and whether you manage to keep track of how long you've done it.

I'm not saying that this is acceptable, but it seems to happen to one extent or another to rather a lot of game companies, and that means the chances are that with even the best intentions on the part of people at the other end, it'll happen to you sometime, probably more than once if you work in this industry (and of course that's not even counting how often you'll get bit by pay-on-publication...)

I can understand cash flow issues, I can understand staffing issues, etc. Yes,

it is a fact of life in the industry. However, even when faced with these

issues, CONTACTING the contributor to let them know what is going on, and

remaining in contact is paramount. Chaosium has failed in this regard, and

thusly is "deliberately" leaving those people hanging. Money and staffing aside,

a simple email to explain the situation and provide updates is not too much to

ask. By not doing so, it is indeed "deliberate". There is no problem using that

word to accurately describe the situation.

-V

[Agentorange]

I have a friend who runs a military bookdealers and small press print

Shameless plug

Barbarossa Books, Military and Modelling Books, DVDs and Magazines

Now a while back I did some research for him at the Imperial War Museum photo archives ( I got paid in books ) and went up to his workshop to visit, he said that in his experience the publishing industry , especially in niche areas is a pretty hand to mouth existence, he's been in the position of owing money and of being owed it. His comment on this sort of situation is to keep the lines of communication open and it's surprising what can be achieved. Even if it's a case of saying " we're completely broke, we're living on gruel and stale bread, I can't let you have the $1000 dollars right now, but how about $100 now, $100 next month and the balance in June ? " Most folks will probably go for that because if they work in the industry they've probably been there themselves and know what it's like. He also said the best way to get a lawyers letter through the door is to say nothing and refuse to talk to people, it just puts their backs up.

[rust]

His comment on this sort of situation is to keep the lines of communication open and it's surprising what can be achieved. ...

This is exactly what I did mean.

If a bad situation is explained to the people involved, and it is shown to them

that one cares for their situation, too, most people will accept that and will

agree to help to find a solution, provided their own situation allows that.

But if people are simply ignored, this is rightly considered as a lack of respect

and will usually cause them to think of legal enforcement instead of searching

for a mutually acceptable solution. To ignore people is terribly bad style, and

extremely stupid, too.

[Trifletraxor]

Yes, all and all bad news, but I for one will still buy everything that gets out for BRP, since it's the best system around, and I want to see it flourish. I have MET Charlie at the tentacles, and he came across as a great guy. Of course, I would have liked if Chaosium supported RuneQuest better in the past, churned out BRP faster, was better with publicity, communications, etc., but we have to take them for what they are: A tiny RPG publishing company with currently only 3 working employees. Dustin wrote in his blog that he in October got his mailbox under 100 mails for a couple of days, which I interpret to mean they get a lot of emails. I'm sure they will honour their financial deals too, even though they sound like "late payers". And I'm really looking forward to new stuff BRP in 2009!

:beetle:

Edited February 5, 2009 by Trifletraxor
Typo changed the meaning in a most horrible way!

[threedeesix]

I have Charlie at the tentacles,

That would have got me to cough up some money. >:->

[Trifletraxor]

That would have got me to cough up some money. >:->

God damn typo!

Almost covered the keyboard with Coke!

:beetle:

[Dredj]

As far as new products coming out, I just got this email from Chaosium:

A Gaggle of Licensees!

The past week has seen an influx of numerous licensee releases, both near and far.

From Keith Herber and Kevin Ross, the guys at Miskatonic River Press, we just received their first book NEW TALES OF THE MISKATONIC VALLEY, a collection of six Lovecraft Country adventures.

Toward the end of last year Editions Sans-Détour, our new French publisher, came online and Call of Cthulhu is once again available in that language. Sometime ago we offered their core CALL OF CTHULHU rulesbook. Now we have the French-language KEEPER'S SCREEN and first supplement SECRETS OF NEW YORK.

Our good buddies at Q-Workshop surprised us with some new sanity-stealing CALL OF CTHULHU DICE.

We received physical copies of our recent monograph additions: MYSTERIES OF SUDAN by Jason Williams and MYSTIC ALLIANCES by Kamal Lombardi.

Finally, long-time licensee Pagan Publishing has released their long-awaited Call of Cthulhu supplement MYSTERIES OF MESOAMERICA. This is a large campaign delving into the secrets of central America.

Thanks for your support!

The strange Chaosium crew:

Charlie, Lynn, Dustin, Fergie,

William, Meghan, Nick, and Bill.

[RosenMcStern]

Of course, I would have liked if Chaosium supported RuneQuest better in the past,

This was not their fault, it was Avalon Hill's. This is absolutely true and proved. This, and the really, really unfortunate Jovanovic incident (unfortunate for Jovanovic, mostly) almost killed RuneQuest, and left only CoC as a viable D100 product. But it was absolutely not Chaosium's fault.

I'm sure they will honour their financial deals too, even though they sound like "late payers".

All small companies suffer from payment delays sooner or later. Even big companies do, sometimes.

And I'm really looking forward to new stuff BRP in 2009!

Let's hope to have some.

[Nightshade]

I can understand cash flow issues, I can understand staffing issues, etc. Yes,

it is a fact of life in the industry. However, even when faced with these

issues, CONTACTING the contributor to let them know what is going on, and

remaining in contact is paramount. Chaosium has failed in this regard, and

thusly is "deliberately" leaving those people hanging. Money and staffing aside,

a simple email to explain the situation and provide updates is not too much to

ask. By not doing so, it is indeed "deliberate". There is no problem using that

word to accurately describe the situation.

-V

This ignores a pair of fundamental human traits: avoidance and procrastination. Strangely enough, people respond badly to you telling them you're not sure when you're going to pay them. As such, it becomes easy to just put it off until you can pay them. Add in the tendency when you have to much on your plate to avoid the parts that are less constructive, and I think, again, the word "deliberate" does not describe the situation. It implies too much active volition.

[vagabond]

This ignores a pair of fundamental human traits: avoidance and procrastination. Strangely enough, people respond badly to you telling them you're not sure when you're going to pay them. As such, it becomes easy to just put it off until you can pay them. Add in the tendency when you have to much on your plate to avoid the parts that are less constructive, and I think, again, the word "deliberate" does not describe the situation. It implies too much active volition.

I have to disagree - avoidance and procrastination are deliberate actions.

One chooses to practice them, they don't occur by accident.

-V

[Nightshade]

I have to disagree - avoidance and procrastination are deliberate actions.

One chooses to practice them, they don't occur by accident.

-V

One choses all human activity, but that still doesn't make some of it "deliberate" to me; there are connotational meanings here in addition to denotational ones. If you don't actually think about doing it, its not deliberate.

[vagabond]

One choses all human activity, but that still doesn't make some of it "deliberate" to me; there are connotational meanings here in addition to denotational ones. If you don't actually think about doing it, its not deliberate.

Look, at least one time, the first, they intentionally did it. And, at least

after every email and/or phone call from someone, they intentionally did it again.

They chose not to communicate the issue on more than one occasion.

It is deliberate.

-V

[Nightshade]

Look, at least one time, the first, they intentionally did it. And, at least

after every email and/or phone call from someone, they intentionally did it again.

They chose not to communicate the issue on more than one occasion.

It is deliberate.

-V

I think you're missing my distinction, but I don't see any point in continuing to argue with you about it.

[vagabond]

That's a shame. The other suggestions can all be done with relative ease, but if I can't 'openly' sell it in support of BRP I may as well just convert it all to MRQ and avoid the whole issue. <sigh>

Its all rather frustrating. I'd love to release Rome as a BRP supplement to help BRP grow and thrive. But if Chaosium isn't going publish Rome themselves, and I can't afford their license fee for self publication (let alone a lawyer specialising in American copyright law) then I'm a bit buggered.

Thanks anyway V.

Again, IANAL.

I was corrected elsewhere regarding this. The laws were modified in the 90's.

As I said before, you cannot directly reference page numbers from BRP, BUT,

you can put, on the cover, "This Product is Compatible With Chaosium's Basic

Roleplaying Game".

It's called "nominative use" or "nominative fair use", and this is how Kenzer & Co.

publish D&D4e compatible material without a license. It's also how generic ink

jet cartridge suppliers can say "Compatible with Epson XXXX mode inkjet printers".

-V

[RosenMcStern]

True. But there is a Big Difference here.

People all around the world are more than willing to circumvent the laws against WotC or Epson or <name it>. Maybe they even deserve it.

Is anybody here willing to do the same against Chaosium?

[frogspawner]

Assuming vagabond is right, it doesn't "circumvent" the law - it's legal, and that's that.

The Big Difference really is the speed of publication. Chaosium appear to be up to their capacity (or beyond it). But someone who has a 'monograph' ready for submission could (after stripping out BRP page numbers and direct quotes, and slapping on 'Compatible with BRP') whack it up onto Lulu by tomorrow afternoon - and we could have our copies (and they could have some money for it) by next week...

And BRP would have supporting material out there that much quicker. So it's not against Chaosium, it helps them...

[Atgxtg]

This was not their fault, it was Avalon Hill's. This is absolutely true and proved. This, and the really, really unfortunate Jovanovic incident (unfortunate for Jovanovic, mostly) almost killed RuneQuest, and left only CoC as a viable D100 product. But it was absolutely not Chaosium's fault.

Who put the gun to thier heads and forced them to sell RQ to AH? No, Rosen, at least some of the blame for the situation must fall on Chasoium. Selling off what was thier No 1 properrty at the time was their decision. It was done with the best of intentions and for good reasons (to reach a larger market, and to help with the finacial difficulties they were having even then, when they were productive), but it was a bad move. Chaosium though that CoC and Stormbringer would pick up the slack and fill the gap caused by the loss of RQ, but Strombringer never got the fanbase that RQ had.

Chasoium gambled on AH and lost.

Thier choice of supporting CoC at the near exclusion of everything else also is thier own fault, and has left them with a small niche of the RPG market.

Ditching Steve Perrin was also thier own call.

Splitting up into mutiple companies, thier own fault.

Currently, they can be blamed for (yet again) losing the core book author. Also, they can be blaimed for failing to adapt to the market. They are still trying to do things in a manner similar to the way the did things in the 80s, when they should start acting more like an indie publisher.Chaosium hasn't seem to learn how to take advantage of things like print on demand. They are perpetually falling short of their goals.

Look how long it took then to get the new BRP out. With no setting or adventures to speak of.

Any hope of BRP taking off and getting some of the popularity that us fans have hoped for since the early 80s is already shot. "Too little, too late". BRP isn't going to compete with games that are getting support.

I7m sure the folks running Chasoium mean well, and that they would like to put stuff out to support BRP and maybe pick up some maretshare, and maybe even become a presence in the RPG field again. I just think they lack the resources to do so.

All small companies suffer from payment delays sooner or later. Even big companies do, sometimes.

Yeah, but Chasoium seems to perpetually be in that state. Considering just how little RPG authros are paid to begin with that's scary.

Is anybody here willing to do the same against Chaosium?

Maybe not here, but somone will somewhere. Just look at the hoast of BRP/RQ inspired RPGs out there. One thing MRQ has proved is that there are those people who will buy compable/semi-compatible stuff regarldess of who is making it. Quite a few BPR fans have been getting MRQ supplmenets and suing them for settings and rules that BRP has yet to cover.

Most people will buy what they see on the shelves and can order. And whoever gets stuff out will make the sales.

We might be willing to wait and give Chasoium time to get stuff out, but most gasmers won't, and there goes any hope of expanding Chasoium's fan base.

Edited February 10, 2009 by Atgxtg