Delecti in the Upland Marsh... A homage?

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, scott-martin said:

This is great. The controversy over throwing crowns appears in the Guide (407). The "mace" might be an older D&D joke. I'll look deeper.

I've heard that too, I thought both were in the Guide.

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Vivamort is tradition that originates in the West (are there any explicit references to vampires prior to the First Age Vampire Kings of Tanisor?) 

Those came about through the illumination of Nysalor (or Gbaji, as far away from the source as they were).

Both Heort and Vogarth Strongman had to deal with the minions of Nontraya, and the greater of these minions weren't easily laid to rest by separating the living from the dead. 

 

6 hours ago, davecake said:

and are from a sorcerous culture.

The Vampire kings of Tanisor were most likely Enerali by ancestry, but touched by Vadeli magic - the magics that had destroyed much of Hrelar Amali at the behest of a Seshnegi king.

The Huan-to are vampiric in their abilities, too, but with their distinctive shapes hard to confuse with these undead.

The encounter between Vadel's party and the intelligent energy complex (Middle Sea Empire p.5) which left part of Vadel's companions incomplete, bereft of a soul, but still ambulatory may have resulted in something hard to discern from vampires. Vadel went on to study these magics, and mastered them for himself, sharing with the Tadeniti and Zzabur.

There is a chance that the devil Morty encountered wasn't even Wakboth but Vadel.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Vampire magic seems sorcerous, and it's clear that vampires (who can't cast spirit magic or learn Rune magic) rely heavily on sorcery. Besides vampire specific magic, it seems that vampires would learn (and presumably share) other sorcery. I've already mentioned its likely link to the Vadeli Telendarian school of sorcery.

Vampires are drainers, so they can have access to magic points even though they cannot produce any themselves. Most other drainers are discorporate.

Vivamorti initiates don't suffer the side effects of the Tap spell the Brithini and the Vadeli love to use when drained by their masters. One might wonder whether these initiates have a better deal than the diminutive Brithini assistants in Halkomelem in Akem.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Also the very artificial sounding name (LifeDeath but in Latin) makes it sound like a sorcerous entity, an anthropomorphised principle. 

That name is right next to Cacodemon and Mal(l)ia, EvilSpirit or TheBadOne. As evocative as some of the Gloranthan names can be, there are others that leave a lot to be desired. Not to mention misspelling that Latin - Sagittus has been seen with two "g" and only one "t", and the "Pharoah" is right next to the Storm Kahns (those latter might have been an intentional homage to Sheman Kahn, but I give that theory about a 50% chance).

Having lost his name after exposure to the Devil sounds like part of his punishment.

 

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Plus, my private theory that the distinctive Sword breaker cult weapon is a form of talar mace, turned into a specialist weapon, a remnant of the Vampire Kings. There was a reference somewhere to Talars drifting from strict caste rules still not using horali sword but using their mace of authority as a weapon, and throwing 'crowns' - any know it? 

Still in the description of the Arolanit Brithini of the Seshnela chapter, nowadays in the Guide p.407, but a (pretty) identical text was in Genertela Book in the RQ3 box.

Yes, the Tanisoran nobility may be a major seed for vampire lineages throughout the territory of the former Bright Empire. The Wastes probably create an impassable barrier, and on the far side, the Huan-to might fulfill the vampire role quite well. But, with the God Learner occupation, vampires may have entered overseas.

There isn't much overt evidence for vampire activity in Seshnela or Fronela. But then, neither is there against such activity.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

If Nontraya is the same deity as Vivamort (which I'm no longer sure of - Nontraya seems to be a deity of Underworld demons and dead let out of Hell, not quite the same thing),

I have come to regard the visit of Death in Prax as the presence of the former guardian of Death, who had retained a copy of the power of Humakt.

The arrival of Humakt in Prax has been dated to 35 ST, which would make his earlier arrival as the death that Tada hid Eiritha from a bit weird. The encounter between Nontraya and Ernalda fits that imagery, though.

Vivamort's backstory has Morty flee from Hell and hide with Malia for a while, who probably learned the secret of death from Morty, and the two of them found out how to pervert that power.

Cults Compendium p.277 / Sourcebook p.125:

Quote

Before Time
Vivamort  was  a  Darkness  spirit  of  the  labyrinthine halls  and  ways  of  Hell,  placed  there  to  stand eternal  guard  over  the  Terrible  Secret.  But Vivamort  was  curious  about  what  the  secret  was, and  when  Eurmal  crept  into  Hell,  Vivamort betrayed  his  trust  to  learn  the  secret.  There  they discovered  Death.

Vivamort  aided  Eurmal  again  when  he  and Humakt  came  to  carry  Death  to  the  surface  world, helping  them  past  Death-hound  and  Bimbaros, Hell’s  porter.

Up to here Morty is a darkness being pretty much like Zorak Zoran, a subordinate Srvuali in the job of a guardian of secrets. Morty goes against his orders and his purpose. Yes, Eurmal was involved, but that doesn't absolve Morty of anything. Releasing death was something Morty wanted, even though none of the three really knew what they had unleashed.

One thing I would expect from this origin is a somewhat trollish physiognomy for Morty.

Quote

 Vivamort  knew  that  all  those  slain would  come  to  his  realm  once  their  souls  had met  Death.

So Morty was actually something like a ruler of the place Death came from? This doesn't quite rhyme with Wonderhome being the destination of Bijiif Maggotliege and ruled by Kyger Litor.

   Both Morty and Humakt became gods of death - Humakt of dealing Death, Morty of receiving the dead.

This receiving the dead has some similarity with the role of Nontraya in Esrolia.

Quote

Grandfather  Mortal  was  the  first  to  die  and  the first  to  come  to Vivamort.  He  also  was  the  first  to understand Vivamort’s  soul-greedy  treachery,  and great  hatred  stood  between  the  two. When  the  Sun later  came  to  Hell, Vivamort  was  burned  and  had to  flee,  hurt  and  disfigured,  to  the  now-darkened surface.  (When  the  Sun  learned  of Vivamort’s  role in  the  release  of  Death,  he  sent  curses  upon  him.)

Funny how neither Eurmal nor Humakt nor Orlanth suffer from any similar curses.

Does Nontraya? Or are the curses sent by Yelm one of the last acts of free will before the Compromise sealed him into Time?

Quote

Reaching  the  surface,  Vivamort  sheltered  a while  with  Mallia,  Mother  of  Disease,  trading secrets  of  Darkness  and  Death.  

This rapport between these two spirits of Darkness is something few people have commented on, yet.

How was Malia able to offer shelter to Morty?

Looking at Malia's early myths, Heortling Mythology has perhaps the most positive description of this goddess:

Quote

Mallia was born a child of the Darkness, a spirit of healing with great properties to aid growth and birth. Like all shadows, she grew in the Darkness, but she soon grew jealous of those greater than herself. When death came, she discovered nourishment within the wreckage and destruction of the Gods War. Thus, Mallia became a corruption of Death itself, a spiritual engine of destruction, tainted, and degraded from the swift brightness which Orlanth and Humakt used.

For some reason, Morty and Mallia entangled one another and made the other worse.

 

Quote

He  stalked  the world  for  Power. As  he  went,  he  learned  more  of Death,  and  began  to  fear  what  he  had  unleashed, for  he  recognized  chaos  as  an  extension  of  Death. The  knowledge  froze  him  with  terror.

Stalking the world for power sounds very much like what Nontraya did when he approached Ernalda and Eiritha.

To me, this Morty is an entity from the deepest underworld who first learned about the secrets of Death alongside Eurmal, and then sought to use them selfishly for his own gain and power. The cult of Vivamort doesn't dwell much on what Morty did when he stalked the world, but the Tada-shi and the Esrolians have a tale to tell about Nontraya or Death entering their realms.

 

6 hours ago, davecake said:

it may well be it is a separate tradition, one that stems from different magical roots, a perversion of theist tradition rather than a truly sorcerous one.

As Morty was a darkness spirit in the deepest levels of Hell, I wonder whether the distinction between theist, sorcerous or animist origins is that important.

 

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Perhaps they are able to summon talokans demons with scorpion forms or scorpion tail whips, wings and best forms, etc? Perhaps the (controversial) ability to steal rune magic is part of the Nontraya tradition?

The Talokan demon may be an alternative for Morty's original form (which definitely did not resemble that of a human).

Vivamort gets a rapport with wolves and bats. And retains that with shadows.

6 hours ago, davecake said:

Anyway, noting the current, and current draft, material about vampires and Vivamort doesn't mention Nontraya. A couple of comments says Vivamort is a God Learner name for Nontraya, but we know the God Learners often got the details wrong. Maybe it is a different tradition, maybe an entirely different entity. Comments in the Guide treat them as different entities. 

The one mention in the Guide (p708) lists Nontraya as a Chaos god. I am not sure whether I should agree with that. Not everything bad is chaotic, Heortling belief to the different left aside.

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, Joerg said:

The one mention in the Guide (p708) lists Nontraya as a Chaos god. I am not sure whether I should agree with that. Not everything bad is chaotic, Heortling belief to the different left aside.

The relationship between Chaos and Undeath is something I keep struggling with, personally. Proper undeath is clearly a problem with the world, and possibly chaos-related - separating the dead from the living is an important job for a lot of different actors.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

The relationship between Chaos and Undeath is something I keep struggling with, personally. Proper undeath is clearly a problem with the world, and possibly chaos-related - separating the dead from the living is an important job for a lot of different actors.

there's the Dead and there's the Undead. The proper Undead are Chaos-powered, that's the trick to the difference!

it's like the difference between disorder and chaos

1. they come round once a year to walk the streets, or hang out in darkness places? not undead

2. hunt the living and grow powerful off them? yeah that's undead

Edited January 22, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

2. hunt the living and grow powerful off them? yeah that's undead

I think the question is "that is obviously bad, but is it actually Chaos?" A blurred line between the dead and the living is clearly one of the many problems with the Great Darkness, but it's not obvious that it has to be inherently Chaotic. It's a bit like tapping - yeah, draining the living for power isn't a nice thing to do, but is it always and inherently Chaotic? Compare with the blurred chaos lines for another Darkness entity, Malia.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Compare with the blurred chaos lines for another Darkness entity, Malia.

it's true that Malia for me is a thing, because shamans have like one job in the real world, and it's 1. curing and 2. sending diseases

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's true that Malia for me is a thing, because shamans have like one job in the real world, and it's 1. curing and 2. sending diseases

Yep. I would also argue that hitting a misbehaving individual with a disease isn’t chaotic and just what you do as a shaman, while spreading an epidemic likely is a chaotic act.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yep. I would also argue that hitting a misbehaving individual with a disease isn’t chaotic and just what you do as a shaman, while spreading an epidemic likely is a chaotic act.

also like, using a disease as a weapon against your foes is your job, whereas witchery (inflicting illness because you are basically a Sith Lord) is Chaos.

shamans in real life are suspicious because they have the tools to cure and inflict disease, so people are always concerned they could easily turn to (what we'd call) Chaos. one of the reasons they are isolated in real life is because of their power: people fear to offend them in case they go bad so they don't want to get too close. they're kept at arm's length.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The relationship between Chaos and Undeath is something I keep struggling with, personally. Proper undeath is clearly a problem with the world, and possibly chaos-related - separating the dead from the living is an important job for a lot of different actors.

Does anybody have an explanation why Gramps Mortal's severed soul was drawn to Rausa's gate (and why was that gate and spiral stairway where it was)? What could have been the precedence?

Consider the situation. It is the everlasting day of Brighteye Yelm, who sits motionlessly in the sky, or possibly swings back and forth a little as the Sky Dome that has been pushed up from its balanced rest on the Spike by Umath rocks along. Strictly speaking, Yelm has been  drifting northward ever since Shargash crashed Umath into the northern (white) pillar. By the time Kalikos pushes back, Yelm may have been long dead. But Yelm hasn't ever moved the slightest bit into the east or the west.

The survivors of his eight planetary sons have been on the move ever since Umath made them dance. Reladiva/Jernedea, Shargash and Verithurusa, possibly also Zaytenera. And there are stars on the Sky Dome - silver on gold? They do the rotation dance led by (yet unseen, because hidden above Yelm) Pole Star.

We have no idea about the planetary movements in the Golden Age sky after Umath's invasion. And little information on how the planets and moons moved in the Storm Age, and which moving bodies there were.

 

And all that is working from the assumption that the records of the Yuthuppan star seers are a) correct, b) universal, and c) complete.

The tale of uz bliss in Wonderhome precludes any previous passage of fire or light entities other than Aether through the nether realms. It doesn't preclude the passage of sky entities, though. There is nothing wrong with reflective bodies passing through the Underworld on a "rise in the east, sink in the west" routine leading them through the sky dome hemisphere and possibly the Underworld sky hemisphere which is its (presumed) counterpiece in the Underworld, and observable at least at the solstices.

But then, the precession of the Sky Dome pushes the same stars on the lower rim of the visible sky dome above the surface  both in the summer and the winter solstices. If Yelm rises through Lorion on spring equinox, then Lorion will be present in the absolute south in the short summer nights when the lower rim stars make their appearance there, and in the north when the lower rim stars curve up even higher while the sky spills a lot of its liquid fire into the sea south of the Nargan.

(Or I am wrong about the direction of the sky dome precession (which may be contrary to its actual nightly rotation), and Lorion dips low on the solstices rather than soaring high.)

Anyway, something strong and inescapable drew the souls of the first two victims of True Death onto the Westfaring followed by the descending staircase. This is where Morty's intuition or secret knowledge ties in - Gramps Mortal accuses Morty of being greedy for captive souls. Yelm even puts the fear of the living daylight into the husk that used to be Morty and now is Vivamort. What was this draw, this railway? And how do the undead ignore it?

 

 

Orlanth's Impests are not too different from a disease. I wonder whether Eurmal stole (or contracted) them from Malia, tamed them for amusement value and then was made to hand them over to Orlanth.

Malia may have stumbled over somethiing unique to her diseases - multiplication by infection. A shaman sending a curse doesn't usually aim to introduce a point from which infection spreads but inserts a disease inside a designated victim.

Do shamans have access to an array of non-infectious diseases, or has Malia's learning process with Morty led to all diseases to have the potential to become epidemic?

 

[Akhôrahil]

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Does anybody have an explanation why Gramps Mortal's severed soul was drawn to Rausa's gate (and why was that gate and spiral stairway where it was)? What could have been the precedence?

The implications here are staggering - if it was just random chance that Grandfather Mortal went west instead of east to descend into the Underworld, and if Yelm simply followed the trail blazed by GM, then it's pure chance that the sun doesn't rise in the west and set in the east. Or even more weirdly - does north and south have stairways to hell in the same way? In that case, only pure chance stopped us from having a sun that rises in the south and sets in the north! 

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Orlanth's Impests are not too different from a disease. I wonder whether Eurmal stole (or contracted) them from Malia, tamed them for amusement value and then was made to hand them over to Orlanth.

Malia may have stumbled over somethiing unique to her diseases - multiplication by infection. A shaman sending a curse doesn't usually aim to introduce a point from which infection spreads but inserts a disease inside a designated victim.

Do shamans have access to an array of non-infectious diseases, or has Malia's learning process with Morty led to all diseases to have the potential to become epidemic?

I would think that it's the infectiousness that makes diseases chaotic in the first place (well, cancer probably is as well, because of the connection to Pocharngo).

Perhaps a shaman could browbeat and geas a disease spirit into not trying to infect further, and then sic it on an enemy? 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Does anybody have an explanation why Gramps Mortal's severed soul was drawn to Rausa's gate (and why was that gate and spiral stairway where it was)? What could have been the precedence?

IMG this is connected to the mysteries of time itself. Without bogging down in too much metaphysics, an observer in the broken Genertelan north facing the sun will see time pass from left (maximum potential, origins, "early") to right (maximum depletion, endings, "late"). As entities lose their hold on the present and start to recede into the past we call the direction they are moving "westward." 

Because death is how we know time is passing ("death needs time for what it kills to grow") this means the western gate is the way into the land of the dead. The eastern gate is the way out, or at least the way into the world of the present. When Gramps felt the premonition of time, the direction he moved was toward Rausa. Rausa is red because from our point of view everything in her world is receding or has already receded beyond the usual wavelength. The frequencies of Vithela are too energetic to look at but probably tend toward the blue end.

This is part of the dharma of the Children of Malkion. Sometimes entities move from west to east. I am not explaining this well yet.

[Ian Absentia]

2 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Because death is how we know time is passing ("death needs time for what it kills to grow") this means the western gate is the way into the land of the dead.

😍💖💥

!i!

[Ali the Helering]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's true that Malia for me is a thing, because shamans have like one job in the real world, and it's 1. curing and 2. sending diseases

and reintegrating individuals into society after illness, broken gaeas or defilement, and conversing with the dead, and dealing with totemic spirits, and placating genius loci, and......

oh sorry, is that more than one job?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Ali the Helering said:

and reintegrating individuals into society after illness, broken gaeas or defilement, and conversing with the dead, and dealing with totemic spirits, and placating genius loci, and......

oh sorry, is that more than one job?

no, that's all curing

except conversing with the dead, which is mediumship and isn't technically shamanism, although it is often bundled together with shamanising in many cultures

lots of cultures have people who converse with the dead and/or totemic spirits without shamanising

Edited January 23, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

it's true that Malia for me is a thing, because shamans have like one job in the real world, and it's 1. curing and 2. sending diseases

Isn't that two jobs?

[Shiningbrow]

43 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

no, that's all curing

except conversing with the dead, which is mediumship and isn't technically shamanism, although it is often bundled together with shamanising in many cultures

lots of cultures have people who converse with the dead and/or totemic spirits without shamanising

It sounds like you are defining "shamanism" (of its many and varied types) as well as only being about curing (and succing).

 

9 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

shamans in real life are suspicious because they have the tools to cure and inflict disease, so people are always concerned they could easily turn to (what we'd call) Chaos. one of the reasons they are isolated in real life is because of their power: people fear to offend them in case they go bad so they don't want to get too close. they're kept at arm's length.

No. Shamans are kept at arm's length because muggles don't understand what they do. Talking to "things that aren't there" freaks people out. 

Yeah sure, there is some fear. But there's also awe, confusion, respect, reverence...

Many who walk that path prefer the relative isolation - so it's not merely the society pushing them away. After all, when you're trying to focus on a task (meditate, talk to an entity, do a ritual, etc), you really don't want the muggles hanging around, getting in the way, asking questions, etc.

[Shiningbrow]

8 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The implications here are staggering - if it was just random chance that Grandfather Mortal went west instead of east to descend into the Underworld, and if Yelm simply followed the trail blazed by GM, then it's pure chance that the sun doesn't rise in the west and set in the east. Or even more weirdly - does north and south have stairways to hell in the same way? In that case, only pure chance stopped us from having a sun that rises in the south and sets in the north! 

You're thinking too deep.

The sun does rise in the north and set in the south, or NW - SE, or any other pairings.

The cardinal points are based on this rising and setting pattern, not the other way around. 

It would follow that the mythology inserted itself into this - that is, if the sun sets in the West, then obviously that's where the door must be!

I know, I'm breaking Glorantha by being a heretic... But, if humans (and other races) can change the real world by Heroquesting, then it would make sense that this happened for the doorways too... 

(I'm reminded of 1984 - Doublespeak and the sudden change of meanings of words, and of history, and the acceptance of the new now was how it always was...)

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

no, that's all curing

except conversing with the dead, which is mediumship and isn't technically shamanism, although it is often bundled together with shamanising in many cultures

lots of cultures have people who converse with the dead and/or totemic spirits without shamanising

Not at all clear as to how you see dealing with genius loci or totemic spirits as healing, and mediumship doesn't cover all of the aspects of necromantic activities of some shamans.

Simply because some cultures have other ways of dealing with spirits doesn't mean that it isn't part of the shaman's task in others.

If you want to be truly specific and return to the people from whom the word 'shaman' is taken, then Buryat shamans  also undertake the practise of interceding with the tngri, those great spirits some class as divine.  Not just healing, honestly.

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

You're thinking too deep.

The sun does rise in the north and set in the south, or NW - SE, or any other pairings.

The cardinal points are based on this rising and setting pattern, not the other way around. 

It would follow that the mythology inserted itself into this - that is, if the sun sets in the West, then obviously that's where the door must be!

I don’t think I believe this - North is North because it’s the cold direction, but that’s something completely separate from where the sun sets (unless the setting sun can somehow be mapped on to this).

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

51 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I don’t think I believe this - North is North because it’s the cold direction, but that’s something completely separate from where the sun sets (unless the setting sun can somehow be mapped on to this).

But, it's cold because the sun doesn't go there...

If it did, there'd be myths about the sun destroying the cold.

Also, east and west would be cold instead... 

It's almost like north and south are words that mean "where the sun don't shine... Much"

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

But, it's cold because the sun doesn't go there...

No it's not - it's cold because it's the cold end of the world, just as the south is the hot end of the world (burning desert and all).

I mean, yes, if the Sun parked there, much of the ice would melt. But it's inherently cold, not just cold because lack of sunlight.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

No it's not - it's cold because it's the cold end of the world, just as the south is the hot end of the world.

My bad. I'm thinking RW here... 

[soltakss]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does anybody have an explanation why Gramps Mortal's severed soul was drawn to Rausa's gate (and why was that gate and spiral stairway where it was)? What could have been the precedence?

I don't think it was.

When Grandfather Mortal died, his soul sent westwards and down into Hell. Who knows why he went that way.

When Yelm died, he followed the path of Grandfather Mortal. His daughter, Rausa, followed him and guarded the Western Gate, so that it became known as her gate. Simiarly, the Morning star guards the place where Yeml appeared at the Dawn, although she might not have been there beforehand.

[styopa]

On 5/24/2019 at 10:29 PM, Rick Meints said:

While I am sure that somewhere, someone might have said that Delicti was a vampire, that's not the version of Delecti Chaosium has ever published. WB&RM, last updated as Dragon Pass said it quite succinctly:

Delicti the Necromancer lived in one of the chief cities of the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Delecti's practice of his arts led to a curse falling upon the city; it declined into ruin, and the surrounding countryside became a terror-filled swamp. By his arts, Delicti achieved a gruesome form of immortality; he was able to transfer his spirit into a freshly slain corpse and live through it until the rotting flesh could no longer sustain him; at that time he would seek another corpse. Delecti's greatest military asset was his ability to create and maintain armies of zombies.

Of course, he's even more impressive when you give him some Dead Captains of Blood, Plague, or Frost to ...engage... players who feel that The Swamp is someplace to ply their adventuring trade.

 

[Joerg]

 

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

On 1/22/2020 at 8:36 PM, Joerg said:

Does anybody have an explanation why Gramps Mortal's severed soul was drawn to Rausa's gate (and why was that gate and spiral stairway where it was)? What could have been the precedence?

I don't think it was.

We don't know how exactly Humakt and Eurmal entered the Underworld to take out Death. All we know is that Eurmal and Morty somehow tricked or avoided Bimbaros, the Porter of Hell.

 

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

When Grandfather Mortal died, his soul sent westwards and down into Hell. Who knows why he went that way.

In Yelm's realm, the East was associated with Above, and the West with Below (Akuturos vs. Senthoros). The rising power of Dayzatar vs. the sinking power of Lodril. That suggests that these two cardinals were associated with those directions early on.

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

When Yelm died, he followed the path of Grandfather Mortal. His daughter, Rausa, followed him and guarded the Western Gate, so that it became known as her gate. Simiarly, the Morning star guards the place where Yeml appeared at the Dawn, although she might not have been there beforehand.

The four jumper stars or planets or however you might want to classify their celestial bodies were active in the Golden Age, as far as I can tell - at least Kalikos in the north was there to push back the sky bowl that was ever so slowly tilting northward after Shargash had tossed Umath into the northern pillar, shattering it.

Then there are the Storm Age planets - Black Dendara and Lokarnos, known as two of the three Sky Witches of Doraddi myth, who traveled on what would later be known as the Sun path even though the imperial sun god had only traveled the first half of that circuit.

The path was well defined before the Dawn.

My question is whether it was already well defined when Yelm stopped the previous cycles of day and night.