Use of Meditate skill

[Sumath]

I don't have the RQG rules in front of me, but I don't remember there being a time limit upon the use of Meditate (i.e. between the end of meditation and the casting of a spell). Presumably, you can meditate, then wait until the right moment (within reason) to cast the spell, without losing the bonus? The adventurer is preparing their mind or mentally rehearsing the casting, so as long as it is the next spell they cast, and they do not need to concentrate intensely on anything else in the meantime, then I would assume that the casting can be deferred for a while.

[Kloster]

I've just checked p244and 245, and nothing is specified on the subject. I think the good answer is the 'delay within reason' you gave.

[PhilHibbs]

43 minutes ago, Sumath said:

I don't have the RQG rules in front of me, but I don't remember there being a time limit upon the use of Meditate (i.e. between the end of meditation and the casting of a spell).

I would not allow much delay without calling for INT rolls. Maybe INTx5 for a few SR delay within the same Melee Round, x4 for the next melee round, then x3, x2, x1 etc.

I'd allow open-ended meditiation, "I will meditate until the door bursts open, then cast Befuddle on whoever is on the other side".

Edited June 11, 2019 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

I would have read this as you get the meditation bonus on the spell or skil used when you end your meditation. It shouldn't be a lingering benefit, but an immediate, situational one.

[Sumath]

I quite like the idea of INT rolls. And losing the bonus automatically in the event of e.g. damage being incurred.

[Kloster]

21 minutes ago, Sumath said:

And losing the bonus automatically in the event of e.g. damage being incurred.

This is covered by the INTx3 rolls to keep concentration.

[g33k]

58 minutes ago, Kloster said:

This is covered by the INTx3 rolls to keep concentration.

INT rolls are the same mechanism, but IMHO no -- taking damage calls for an immediate & separate roll from any roll that's just marking time.

As we are well into House Rules here, I'll offer another alternate:  when you take damage, it advances you down the chart of INTx5 ... INTx4 ... INTx3 ... etc; for every 2 pts of damage, you step one step further down the chart.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

5 hours ago, Sumath said:

I don't have the RQG rules in front of me, but I don't remember there being a time limit upon the use of Meditate (i.e. between the end of meditation and the casting of a spell). Presumably, you can meditate, then wait until the right moment (within reason) to cast the spell, without losing the bonus? The adventurer is preparing their mind or mentally rehearsing the casting, so as long as it is the next spell they cast, and they do not need to concentrate intensely on anything else in the meantime, then I would assume that the casting can be deferred for a while.

I was thinking and I see Philhibbs has a similar  thought, that another skill would be required to hold the benefits gained from the mediatation. Seeing his reply I think  prefer an idea roll (the difficulty being determined by the GM or table depending on the circumstances) being required to hold the mediation's benefit. for a later time 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

As we are well into House Rules here, I'll offer another alternate:  when you take damage, it advances you down the chart of INTx5 ... INTx4 ... INTx3 ... etc; for every 2 pts of damage, you step one step further down the chart.

 

Yeah this is even better. Again let the circumstances decide and have a guide ready to assist.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

I would not allow much delay without calling for INT rolls. Maybe INTx5 for a few SR delay within the same Melee Round, x4 for the next melee round, then x3, x2, x1 etc.

I'd allow open-ended meditiation, "I will meditate until the door bursts open, then cast Befuddle on whoever is on the other side".

I would allow same-round casting without calling for an INT-roll (maybe even following-round, if it was late in the SR-sequence when the meditation ended).

After that, I'd begin imposing INT rolls to maintain the meditation bonus.

I would immediately advance someone down the INT-roll chart for taking damage... *OR* for making any OTHER roll than meditation or spellcasting!

[Psullie]

I see using the Mediate skill as getting in the zone to perform a specific act. Once you make the skill test the very next action must be what was the subject of the focus, a small delay is reasonable only if appropriate to the action, such as moving a few meters to get LOS. I'd rule that any unrelated actions would break your concentration with the possibility of the INT roll if warranted.

[PhilHibbs]

Maybe you should also be at a corresponding penalty for any other action until you do what you meditated for.

[Ian Absentia]

5 hours ago, Psullie said:

I see using the Mediate skill as getting in the zone to perform a specific act.

This is essentially my thought.  Meditation is preparation for performance.  If there's a delay between mediation and action, then one is no longer meditating.  Think of it like the zen process of contemplate-contemplate-contemplate-EXECUTE.  It's clearly not intended as a "Vancian" spell one can keep loaded in the chamber ready to fire.

If a delay is occurring between meditation and the expected action, why not keep meditating?  Build that incremental bonus as high as you can while you wait.

Now, I'm fascinated with the possibilities of the potential skill modifiers suggested on RQG p.183.  Stretching the rule allowance way beyond what's intended in the text, I'm envisioning meditation-induced, mystical combat trances.  In the simplest implementation, it'd be like the zen process I suggested above, culminating in a single blow, shot with an arrow, etc.  Stretching it farther still, one can imagine the whirling Nathic mystic with twin scimitars carrying the Meditation bonus well into combat.

!i!

[davecake]

6 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

If a delay is occurring between meditation and the expected action, why not keep meditating?  Build that incremental bonus as high as you can while you wait.

Full agreement. 

6 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Stretching the rule allowance way beyond what's intended in the text, I'm envisioning meditation-induced, mystical combat trances.  In the simplest implementation, it'd be like the zen process I suggested above, culminating in a single blow, shot with an arrow, etc.  Stretching it farther still, one can imagine the whirling Nathic mystic with twin scimitars carrying the Meditation bonus well into combat.

We already have various 'Trance' magics. I would be happy if some of these explicitly linked to the Meditation skill - it doesn't sound like that would be something that would work for eg Babeester Gor or Humakt, where it is more like a combat frenzy - but for Nathic warriors, Eastern martial artists etc, various mystics, it sounds like it would be a great idea. 

[Kloster]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

INT rolls are the same mechanism, but IMHO no -- taking damage calls for an immediate & separate roll from any roll that's just marking time.

As we are well into House Rules here, I'll offer another alternate:  when you take damage, it advances you down the chart of INTx5 ... INTx4 ... INTx3 ... etc; for every 2 pts of damage, you step one step further down the chart.

 

No. What I said is that the rule p245 is that you have to make an INTx3 roll to keep concentration when taking damage. This is not my idea of a houserule, but RAW.

14 hours ago, g33k said:

I would allow same-round casting without calling for an INT-roll (maybe even following-round, if it was late in the SR-sequence when the meditation ended).

After that, I'd begin imposing INT rolls to maintain the meditation bonus.

I would immediately advance someone down the INT-roll chart for taking damage... *OR* for making any OTHER roll than meditation or spellcasting!

Nice ideas.

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

This is essentially my thought.  Meditation is preparation for performance.  If there's a delay between mediation and action, then one is no longer meditating.  Think of it like the zen process of contemplate-contemplate-contemplate-EXECUTE.  It's clearly not intended as a "Vancian" spell one can keep loaded in the chamber ready to fire.

If a delay is occurring between meditation and the expected action, why not keep meditating?  Build that incremental bonus as high as you can while you wait.

Now, I'm fascinated with the possibilities of the potential skill modifiers suggested on RQG p.183.  Stretching the rule allowance way beyond what's intended in the text, I'm envisioning meditation-induced, mystical combat trances.  In the simplest implementation, it'd be like the zen process I suggested above, culminating in a single blow, shot with an arrow, etc.  Stretching it farther still, one can imagine the whirling Nathic mystic with twin scimitars carrying the Meditation bonus well into combat.

!i!

IIRC, RQ3 Samurai had something like that.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Kloster said:

No. What I said is that the rule p245 is that you have to make an INTx3 roll to keep concentration when taking damage. This is not my idea of a houserule, but RAW.

Yes, rolling to keep Meditation-bonus (despite damage) until casting is the RAW.

You had seemed to be suggesting (or I had been mis-reading) that the (proposed) INT-rolls (to sustain Meditation bonus across several MR's of  time) could also "cover" the INT roll vs damage.

I was saying that each cause of loosing the bonus needs to be accounted for...  I think tan extra source of distraction calls for an extra roll... or a more-difficult roll.

 

Edited June 12, 2019 by g33k
clarity

[Kloster]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yes, rolling to keep Conc during casting is the RAW.

In fact, the rule p245 does not speak of keeping concentration during casting, but keeping concentration during meditation.

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

I was saying that each cause of loosing the bonus needs to be accounted for...  in an extra roll, or a more-difficult roll. 

On this, I agree.

5 minutes ago, g33k said:

You had seemed to be suggesting (or I had been mis-reading) that the (proposed) INT-rolls (to sustain Meditation bonus across several MR's of  time) could also "cover" the INT roll vs damage.

There was a misunderstanding. See above comments.

[Ian Absentia]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

IIRC, RQ3 Samurai had something like that.

"Ki Skills," which started as the Critical ability of a normal skill that reached 90%+, then tracked and developed as a separate skill.  So your character might develop Ki Archery, Ki Sword, Ki Calligraphy, etc.  It represented the expression of one's Ki energy through a mastered skill of almost any sort, not necessarily combat-oriented.  You'd power the Ki skill with Magic Points, then make a single roll against both the target skill and the Ki skill; if you succeeded on both, you were allowed a special effect.  Aside from spending the Magic Points, it didn't necessitate formal preparation and time commitment, though there was an allowance for augmenting the Ki skill with a successful roll on Ceremony.

Thoughts:
a) Ceremony as a precursor to Meditate.
b) What happens if you develop a Ki Ceremony skill?

!i!

[Ian Absentia]

11 hours ago, davecake said:

We already have various 'Trance' magics. I would be happy if some of these explicitly linked to the Meditation skill - it doesn't sound like that would be something that would work for eg Babeester Gor or Humakt, where it is more like a combat frenzy...

Wouldn't it, though?  I'd momentarily forgotten about the Rune spells Axe Trance and Sword Trance, both of which clearly state that they're incompatible with Berserker and Fanaticism, suggesting that there's more method than madness to the trance.  I reckon this is the Theist's path to trance-induced combat, and I'd allow the Meditation modifier discussed on RQG pp 244-245.

11 hours ago, davecake said:

...but for Nathic warriors, Eastern martial artists etc, various mystics, it sounds like it would be a great idea. 

And here we have the Mystic's path.  It'd be nice to have a method comparable to Axe and Sword Trance (+10% per magic point expended) that could be augmented by Meditation, but without the connotations of Theistic Rune magic.  Maybe we're looking right back to something like RQ3's Ki Skills, though those explicitly require mastery (90%+) to develop, while Rune magic can confer the trance state on anyone with the spell.  Perhaps that's the essential difference between Theism and Mysticism, though -- in Mysticism, you're the master, not your god.

!i!

[davecake]

22 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

And here we have the Mystic's path.

I don't think it is mysticism as such (Natha, for example, is still definitely a goddess who grants Rune spells), but more magic that is more compatible with a mystic culture. Mysticism just doesn't generally do powerful flashy magic - but it can profoundly change how individuals relate to their other sources of powerful flashy magic. I think we are still talking about theism etc, but theism from a culture were people spend a lot of time in meditation regularly might be different. 

[g33k]

The archetype, and the most details, are in Arrow Trance.

I believe it was just an oversight that similar material wasn't brought over to Axe/Sword Trance spells.

 

Still, I think it falls distinctly as a HR to import any Rune Magic effects or descriptions (even for Trance magics) into the Meditation rules.

[Ian Absentia]

On 6/12/2019 at 5:39 PM, g33k said:

The archetype, and the most details, are in Arrow Trance. [Glorantha Bestiary, p.27]

There's our huckleberry.  This is essentially how I envisage a Nathic twin-scimitar trance.

As for broadening the interpreted use of Meditation, yeah, I've been going down the house rule path.  But don't we all in actual play?  That said, Meditation can still augment the casting of non-ritual spells, if not bonuses to spell effects.  And thematically it's totally in keeping for someone preparing for a [Weapon] Trance spell.

!i!

[Edit: Dang, and there's Arrow Trance in Gods of Glorantha, all the way back in 1985.]

Edited June 14, 2019 by Ian Absentia