Current Safelster canon

[albinoboo]

I know that most of the RQ3 era Safelster is now gone. Personally I never felt that comfortable with the pseudo medieval version so I don't mind that it has gone.  However, I am trying to rework some old RQ3 material for RQG. I just need to get a flavor of Safelster's current culture for one section. So what direction should I be looking in.

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

I just need to get a flavor of Safelster's current culture for one section. So what direction should I be looking in.

Small city-states. Perhaps some blend of ancient Mesopotamian (Ur/Gilgamesh etc), with ancient Greek (flavored by weird cults crossing Orlanthi and Seshnegi and Malkionism - sort of Hellenistic?), and then with a heavy dose of the multitude of Arkats.

[albinoboo]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Small city-states. Perhaps some blend of ancient Mesopotamian (Ur/Gilgamesh etc), with ancient Greek (flavored by weird cults crossing Orlanthi and Seshnegi and Malkionism - sort of Hellenistic?), and then with a heavy dose of the multitude of Arkats.

Thanks for that. I will use Mycenaean Greek titles, like Wanax and Wanakt for officials and maybe the Sumerian Lugal. Perhaps use the glazed tiles of Ishtar gate as model for the city walls. A different tile colour could represent the local version of Arkats. 

[scott-martin]

27 minutes ago, albinoboo said:

So what direction should I be looking in.

Hope you keep us posted. To mostly back up the serene Jajagappa the strongest vibe I get off them these days is Ancient Near East and more specifically and ironically the "city of Tyre during the time of the Seleucid dynasty" where the early Fafhrd and Grey Mouser stories happen. For me that's a call back to Mormon devotional art and also Herodotus . . . perfumed cities of brick, gardens and inland seas, parable-spouting visionaries, hedonistic despots, a mosaic of heterodoxies lit up in a vast frontier that supports more spirits than people. 

Those tile colours are AMAZING. Arkat the Red, Arkat the Yellow, Arkat the Black in his Palace, Arkat the White dreaded and seldom seen.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I'd say more Hellenic than Sumerian (although the difference might be moot). Lots of mystery cults, occultism and skullduggery - perhaps something akin to how the Greeks (and later Romans) became overly fascinated with Egyptian and Anatolian cults.

The city-states feature large differences in governance, and often seek to legitimize *their* form of government based on the fragmentary and lost accounts of the Autarchy.

City-leagues joining together to jostle for position. Minor fleet arms race over lake Felster itself.

Generally looming fear of Seshnela in the west, if I recall correctly.

EDIT: Didn't see Scott-Martin's post. Covers much of the same territory, and gets across the atmosphere really well.

Edited July 17, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

. perfumed cities of brick, gardens and inland seas, parable-spouting visionaries, hedonistic despots, a mosaic of heterodoxies lit up in a vast frontier that supports more spirits than people. 

Yep, all that works very well.

10 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Lots of mystery cults, occultism and skullduggery - perhaps something akin to how the Greeks (and later Romans) became overly fascinated with Egyptian and Anatolian cults

Yes, I think the mysteries and occult angles all work very well. I can picture odd cults focused not only on Arkat, but also Alakoring, maybe Talor the Laughing Warrior, ...

13 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Generally looming fear of Seshnela in the west, if I recall correctly.

Very much so!

[metcalph]

Safelstran religion is based on RW neo-platonist theurgy - the worship of the Gods to become Illuminated.  Hence their religious leaders are not sorcerers and watchers like the Seshnegi but Priests and Rune Lords who also practice various occult exercises in secret. This apostasy has earned them the condemnation and ridcule from more orthodox Malkioni.

 

[Roko Joko]

I think of Safelster as having the look and feel of a D&D setting, like the Nyr Dyv lake in Greyhawk.  It has the ingredients.

[davecake]

 

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

Safelstran religion is based on RW neo-platonist theurgy - the worship of the Gods to become Illuminated. 

I don't think Neo-platonism was ever quite as unified in their magical approach as that, nor is it universal or unified in Safelster. Certainly some take a similar attitude, some reject Illumination as a vile trick, some study sorcerous henotheism. And many teach their magical approach in secret, or conceal their strange heresies. 

Safelstran religion is a smorgasbord of mysteries. 

 

[Mankcam]

The G2G has some good depictions of Malkioni, which has certainly whet the appetite to know more about them. I think it has been great in the fact that they feel in keeping with the other ancient-world cultures described in Glorantha. 

I kinda envision the current Malkion with a lot of early era Byzantine Empire Constanople and Palmyrene vibe, very Near Eastern, perhaps with a liberal dose of Vedic India; the caste flavour lends itself to alot of Vedic influences, and the vivid skin tones associated with caste also feel quite Vedic.

I feel that the Horali war companies present themselves like a cross between factional roman legions and later italian mercenary companies. The Zzubari feel like a sage caste that is a cross between hellenic philosphers, court advisors, and archaic magicians.

I think the Safelsteran City-States may also have a fair bit in common with some of the setting flavour seen in Friz Leiber's Lhankmar, and R.E.Howard's Hyborian Age cities of Old Tarantia (Aquilonia) or Shadizar (Zamora). The myrid of mystery cults, thieves guilds, and secret societies lends itself well to these kind of urban sword & sorcery settings.

Will be good to see some offical Malkioni resources for RQG or HQG

Edited July 17, 2019 by Mankcam

[davecake]

17 hours ago, Mankcam said:

The G2G has some good depictions of Malkioni, which has certainly whet the appetite to know more about them.

Absolutely  - Safelster is kind of the 'Malkionism on crack' zone, with many weird sects (the Boristi, the Galvosti, multiple version of Arkatism, etc). A lot of what goes on there is not very representative of Malkionism as a whole. 

17 hours ago, Mankcam said:

Will be good to see some offical Malkioni resources for RQG or HQG

Very much so. I hope we get some too (and for RQG, with playtested rules for both Rokari and Loskalmi Irensavalists). Though starting with the Rokari, rather than heading straight into all the weirdness of Safelster, might be an easier way to start. 

[Joerg]

I still think that the Rokari anti-Hrestolism movement is an unfortunate choice to present as default Malkionism, which has grown out of Hrestolism. Other than in Tanisor and areas influenced from there, Hrestolism is the default Malkioni mode, and even in the region under the sway of the Bailifites, Hrestolism still has its adherents, while other than "Seshnegi" expats there are no Rokari elsewhere in the world. There are a few older pre-Hrestoli traditions based on Zzaburite or Waertagi doctrine, but those aren't typically recognized as Malkioni.

Rokarism is the triumph of the wizards over the men-of-all and to a lesser extent the talar caste. The man-of-all has become a subset of the talar males, those that participate in martial endeavors and serve as elite warriors. The Horali beast warrior societies - reminiscent of the Aztec ones - provide them with a significant pool of men-at-arms outside of their favorite role of heavy cavalry shock forces, although part of the Horali get to serve in this capacity, too.

Arkatism - at least in its Malkioni forms - is descended from Hrestolism. So are other heterodox schools in Ralios, like the Galvosti. All of the Ralian sects have longer traditions than Rokarism. Many of them have Halwal's research at their roots.

 

The Tanisorans who make up the vast majority of the population of the Kingdom of Seshnela in the Third Age are people of mostly Enerali descent whose ancestors were force-fed the Malkioni caste structure and whose descendants have internalized that with hook, line and sinker.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

When I first read the Guide, I got the impression that Loskalm really was the only stronghold of Hrestolism left, and that (New Idealist?) Hrestolism was the only real surviving form.

What is the difference between Loskalmi Hrestolism and Hrestolism in other areas? And Men-of-All exist in  Rokarism too? Are they simply mounted warrior Talari there?

[Tindalos]

9 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

When I first read the Guide, I got the impression that Loskalm really was the only stronghold of Hrestolism left, and that (New Idealist?) Hrestolism was the only real surviving form.

What is the difference between Loskalmi Hrestolism and Hrestolism in other areas? And Men-of-All exist in  Rokarism too? Are they simply mounted warrior Talari there?

Irensavalism has many differences from the earlier forms, as it's a highly dualistic sect of Malkionism that believes Malkion to be a corrupt demiurge!

The Rokari lack Men-of-All, as they've reverted to a pre-hrestoli form of Malkionism, mimicking many Brithini ways.

I'd say that Safelster would probably be the stronghold of "Old Hrestoli" ways; with caste system, Men-of-All, and reincarnation. Even accounting for henotheist influences (which may not be far from Hrestol's form after all. His Men-of-All did serve his demigod half-brother along with priestesses. (And is supported by this old article)

Certainly a foreigner could confuse a heavily enchanted cataphract for a Man-of-All in battle, although they likely would cast no sorcery themselves.

[Joerg]

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

When I first read the Guide, I got the impression that Loskalm really was the only stronghold of Hrestolism left, and that (New Idealist?) Hrestolism was the only real surviving form.

Stronghold as in having millions of followers, yes.

The New Idealist Hrestolism of Loskalm instituted by Siglat and Gaiseron is the one Hrestoli group with the most adherents by virtue of being something like the state religion of Loskalm. I cannot say whether Irensavalism is an integral part of this or a tolerated movement alongside the majority practices of idealist Hrestolism.

The best known Hrestoli outside of Loskalm are the Castle Coast humans, the only survivors of Old Seshnela still inhabiting that land.

In the Malkioni Culture text, the mention for Hrestolism and its belief in re-incarnation was given for the Galvosti sect of Ralios. In quite an underhanded way, I'd like to add.

The wizards introduced to Jonatela by Jonat from Old Seshnela just before its doom are old-style Hrestoli wizards, too, which means that their teachings and influence will have created a form of Hrestolism there, too. One definitely different from the New Idealist ways.

The Pithdarans and some of the southern provincess of the Bailifite kingdom (and presumably some Pasos or Nolos inhabitants) have people that outwardly follow Rokarism but maintain Hrestoli traditions.

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

What is the difference between Loskalmi Hrestolism and Hrestolism in other areas?

Ascension through the castes is a purely New Idealist concept. It is a radical deviation from orthodox Hrestolism, which maintains the four castes established by Malkion but allows individuals to study the skills and duties of the other castes in order to qualify as men-of-all. While training for that status, the individual still remains a member of his birth caste and is expected to function within the duties and (softened) limits of that caste. Only with attaining the status of Men-of-All they may (and must) act as full members of each of the castes. In limited areas, but that goes for members of those castes, too - there are few if any jacks of all trades of a single caste. A talar could be an administrator, a judge, a merchant, a bureaucrat, or a field commander.

 

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

And Men-of-All exist in  Rokarism too?

If you take the title "Sir" that was referred to in the Hedenfeld "What my Father Told Me" bit and the link referenced by Tindalos, then the concept hasn't entirely been hushed up.

7 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Are they simply mounted warrior Talari there?

I think so. There is no way that a Rokari would tolerate a "Sir" of any but Talar caste birth.

That "Sir" might have been struck from canon for triggering medieval parallels, though. But then I haven't seen any replacements, and we still have Sir Ethilrist and Sir Narib in Dragon Pass in the recent publications, so I think it still applies.

 

6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Irensavalism has many differences from the earlier forms, as it's a highly dualistic sect of Malkionism that believes Malkion to be a corrupt demiurge!

Irensavalism is a peculiaity of some Fronelan Hrestolism. I cannot say how pervasive it is even in Loskalm - it could be a parallel society within a more conventional Hrestoli society as the master culture of Loskalm. After all, Malkionism is the poster child of the Materialist culture among humans.

 

6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

The Rokari lack Men-of-All, as they've reverted to a pre-hrestoli form of Malkionism, mimicking many Brithini ways.

They may have usurped the name for their perversion of the talar caste as warriors. Brithini talars are discouraged from using objects of authority as means of self-defence, which means the Rokari concept of a warrior nobility is really alien to their thinking. (So was the warrior nobility instituted by Hrestol.)

The Kustrian tournament marks a decidedly Hrestoli-leaning tradition.

6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I'd say that Safelster would probably be the stronghold of "Old Hrestoli" ways; with caste system, Men-of-All, and reincarnation.

The Galvosti are explicitely revealed as a Hrestoli school. We don't have any data about the Hrestolism index of any other Malkioni or semi-Malkioni group in Ralios, but apart from the Chariot of Lightning cult and the Proven Appearance of Arkat movement, they seem to be older than Rokarism, which points to them being Hrestoli in origin (when not Brithini or Vadeli in origin).

It is hard to say what things were started by Halwal in his preparation for the final battle against Yomili. He appears to have jumped on anything remotely within the mantle of Malkionism to find magic or allies against the Seshnegi kingdom and its wizards, including Irensavalism (in Fronela only, I suppose) and Henotheism.

In order for Halwal to have tried to unify those different Arkat traditions I think he must have quested within them, possibly re-inforcing their magic by applying or (as likely) undoing God Learner (as in Return to Rightness) manipulations to the access to Arkat after his apotheosis. At a guess, Halwal approached the Arkat mysteries through at least five different avenues and may be the one to blame for the upcoming emergence of multiple Arkats.

But then, one interpretation of the RQ3 Troll Gods excerpt of the Jonstown Compendium could be that Arkat already was one entity in several bodies at the time of his Ritual of Rebirth as a troll.

6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Even accounting for henotheist influences (which may not be far from Hrestol's form after all. His Men-of-All did serve his demigod half-brother along with priestesses. (And is supported by this old article)

To my knowledge, Hrestol never met his half-brother (or half-sister), even though their wives were sisters, daughters of the second-ranking talar house on Brithos (Hrestol married the oldest daughter, Ylream the youngest, and I assume that Fara(a)lz successfully absconded with the middle daughter after interrupting her impending marriage to the ruling Talar of Brithos by slaying the groom - the story breaks off abruptly just as Hrestol and Faralz re-unite).

"His" Men-of-All never were commanded by Hrestol himself after attaining that rank, either. Many of the earliest Men-of-All served under him in the first successful campaign against the Pendali after the Dawn, though.

6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Certainly a foreigner could confuse a heavily enchanted cataphract for a Man-of-All in battle, although they likely would cast no sorcery themselves.

Not all sorcery has to be spell-casting. Issuing direct commands to a bound spirit might be regarded as a zzabur-caste activity already.

I suppose the "manual labor for the good of the community" portion of the men-of-all has been forgotten by the Rokari nobility, though.

[Sir_Godspeed]

I found an response by Greg on a mailing list from 2007 where he states that the "Third Age Loskalmi Church is largely based on Irensavalist beliefs", although he goes on to say that this means they are "not Malkioni" aside from worshipping Malkion the Prophet. I assume by this he was referring to the split in the attitudes towards the Demiurge.

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/WorldofGlorantha/2007/0739.html

From what I've come to understand, Irensavalism is basically Gnosticism, in that it sees the creator of the physical world not as an agent of the Godhead/Invisible God, but as a deceiver and an obstacle to true salvation/Joy.

By this, I am guessing that what Greg means by Malkioni are more akin to small-o orthodox Christianity, who either sees the Demiurge as the Godhead, or as an agent/emanation of the Godhead/Invisible God. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Also, it's over ten years old so he may have changed his ideas since then, I couldn't say.

12 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Irensavalism has many differences from the earlier forms, as it's a highly dualistic sect of Malkionism that believes Malkion to be a corrupt demiurge!

From my above look, I'd guess it's less Malkion the Prophet/Sacrifice, etc. they see as corrupt, and more Malkion the Law or Ferbrith/Kiona, right? I know this is all made more complicated by the fact that we have several local names for these emanations/stages of Malkion/the Invisible God, eg. the Jrusteli Makan and all that. Sheesh.
 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Ascension through the castes is a purely New Idealist concept. It is a radical deviation from orthodox Hrestolism, which maintains the four castes established by Malkion but allows individuals to study the skills and duties of the other castes in order to qualify as men-of-all.

Nice and clear, thanks.
 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

If you take the title "Sir" that was referred to in the Hedenfeld "What my Father Told Me" bit and the link referenced by Tindalos, then the concept hasn't entirely been hushed up

Gotcha.

[Tindalos]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Irensavalism is a peculiaity of some Fronelan Hrestolism. I cannot say how pervasive it is even in Loskalm - it could be a parallel society within a more conventional Hrestoli society as the master culture of Loskalm. After all, Malkionism is the poster child of the Materialist culture among humans.

The guide (page 205) states that the New Hrestoli School of Irensavalism is the state faith of Loskalm, with all others not being tolerated. While New Hrestoli is not the only form of Irensavalism, it's the most well known form.

[scott-martin]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I found an response by Greg on a mailing list from 2007 where he states that the "Third Age Loskalmi Church is largely based on Irensavalist beliefs", although he goes on to say that this means they are "not Malkioni" aside from worshipping Malkion the Prophet. I assume by this he was referring to the split in the attitudes towards the Demiurge.

That thread got a little complicated, doesn't it? Listen hard enough you can hear at least one heart crack. Innerworlder2000, if you see this, I want to hear about that game of yours!

I wrote a long dull thing on how the north can be a stronghold of Hrestolism while rejecting Malkion even though Hrestol is a historical response to pre-Dawn "Malkionist" thought . . . but suspect everyone here can figure it out. The history of the west is one of perpetually failed reform, efforts to get back to an origin that may never even have existed at this point.

Then I wrote a shorter weird thing on how the north was more receptive to Gbaji philosophy and the purges were less strict, with traces ultimately incubating there before finding their way back to Spol as part of Irensaval, the resistance ideology turned invasive creed. But it was too weird. It's interesting how Syranthir wasn't the only heretic fleeing the Kionavaran conversions . . . "many virtuous Loskalmi went into exile." Where did they go? Probably a lot went south and married into Safelstran families, bringing their philosophical traditions with them. More probably went up river and started cities.

I currently slur the old "Sir" as "Sri" because "Sifu" didn't really cut it. People hear what they need and we all get on with it. The horses in their "chivalry" probably derive from later Eneralite conversions and this is probably one of Sri Ethilrist's most arcane secrets. But I do think the Bailifids are caste transgressors. They're really a horalite warlord family who stepped into a vacuum and coveted a crown they can only fathom as another kind of projectile weapon. This throws off their entire structure and their magicians will always lose.

Then I think about the Saints of the Great Trek and think I know where the last real talars left alive in the imperial heartland went. So that's nice.

Edited July 20, 2019 by scott-martin

[Minlister]

@Joerg

Quote

That "Sir" might have been struck from canon for triggering medieval parallels, though. But then I haven't seen any replacements, and we still have Sir Ethilrist and Sir Narib in Dragon Pass in the recent publications, so I think it still applies.

Personally, I will go with Sâr, because the sound is very similar, and it was used as a title by early 20th cent. occultist as an "assyrian title" and both aspect occult and Assyrian sounds good to me for Gloranthan flavor.

Edited July 20, 2019 by Minlister

[M Helsdon]

11 minutes ago, Minlister said:

@Joerg

Personally, I will go with Sâr, because the sound is very similar, and it was used as a title by early 20th cent. occultist as an "assyrian title"

The Assyrian/Akkadian word means 'king'.

Edited July 20, 2019 by M Helsdon

[Sir_Godspeed]

Eh, personally I find "sir" fine. I mean, if Pentans can be "sultans" it's difficult to argue that "sir" somehow is inappropriate.

[Gallowglass]

I've been struggling to get a good visual sense of what Western cities actually look like. We have some excellent pieces of art from the GtG showing some background structures for cities in Seshnela and Safelster, and also Sog City, but these offer only tantalizing glimpses. I was initially thinking of all Malkioni as being way more Greek/Byzantine with style of dress and architecture, but the more I look into images of ancient Indian cities, temples, costume, etc. the more I can see that influence. Here's a good image I recently discovered on Wikipedia that could easily be a city in Seshnela or Ralios, minus the elephants. 

For me this fits with the cities depicted in the Guide, a mix of stone and timber, stylized roofs in an apsidal structure, or lots of domes and spires. The only thing I'm noticing about ancient Indian architecture is that the pillars, walls and so forth are absolutely crammed with reliefs, statues, and depictions of gods, heroes and so forth. In Safelster I would bet this is also the case, but in places like Seshnela or Loskalm, I would think the decorations would be more abstract, favoring geometric principles. The description of temples to the Invisible God on p. 53 in the Guide kind of backs that up. 

[albinoboo]

3 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Eh, personally I find "sir" fine. I mean, if Pentans can be "sultans" it's difficult to argue that "sir" somehow is inappropriate.

Depends on how much you disliked the RQ3 D&Dish version. I never really found a substitute that didn't sound a bit daft when you still have Dukes and Kings.  

[Tindalos]

32 minutes ago, Gallowglass said:

In Safelster I would bet this is also the case, but in places like Seshnela or Loskalm, I would think the decorations would be more abstract, favoring geometric principles. The description of temples to the Invisible God on p. 53 in the Guide kind of backs that up. 

It's also worth noting that even in the more aniconic Seshnela, you do still find statues of notables, such as in Segurane (423) or Elersten (415) built presumably by patrons of the Rokari.

There's also this unused, but still wonderful, frieze: https://www.glorantha.com/docs/seshnela-art-direction/ from early in Guilmarn's reign.

The colour plate in the guide mixes arabesque patterns on their clothing with more anthropomorphic designs on the buildings, and while set in more permissive Noloswal, it was likely built between Noloswal being recreated after the shattering, and Nolos breaking away. Much of the buildings were probably done by pious Rokari.

[albinoboo]

1 hour ago, Gallowglass said:

I've been struggling to get a good visual sense of what Western cities actually look like. We have some excellent pieces of art from the GtG showing some background structures for cities in Seshnela and Safelster, and also Sog City, but these offer only tantalizing glimpses. I was initially thinking of all Malkioni as being way more Greek/Byzantine with style of dress and architecture, but the more I look into images of ancient Indian cities, temples, costume, etc. the more I can see that influence. Here's a good image I recently discovered on Wikipedia that could easily be a city in Seshnela or Ralios, minus the elephants. 

For me this fits with the cities depicted in the Guide, a mix of stone and timber, stylized roofs in an apsidal structure, or lots of domes and spires. The only thing I'm noticing about ancient Indian architecture is that the pillars, walls and so forth are absolutely crammed with reliefs, statues, and depictions of gods, heroes and so forth. In Safelster I would bet this is also the case, but in places like Seshnela or Loskalm, I would think the decorations would be more abstract, favoring geometric principles. The description of temples to the Invisible God on p. 53 in the Guide kind of backs that up. 

The pink city of Jaipur could be a model

https://www.rightpoint.com/-/media/jaipur/jaipur.jpg

http://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/180221121624-victor-cheng-jaipur.jpg

https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0d/27/24/4d/amer-fort-near-jaipur.jpg