Rye and/or Oats as staple crops?

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, Bill the barbarian said:

yah, what I said, wild rice

manoomin distinguishes the actual confusion we were having over the different kinds of rice, because there are breeds of Asian rice that are actually not O. sativa, and people outside North America don't really eat it or know it exists

[Lloyd Dupont]

This thread has been hijacked by Big Rye! This is a disgrace! 😮 

[Bill the barbarian]

12 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

This thread has been hijacked by Big Rye! This is a disgrace! 😮 

As a irishman I see no problem with big rye, In fact if yer standin’, I’ll take a big one right now!

Cheers

[Qizilbashwoman]

13 minutes ago, Lloyd Dupont said:

This thread has been hijacked by Big Rye! This is a disgrace! 😮 

Rye tastes like ass, who wants a grain that's ouzo-flavoured

But millet? Millet tastes the actual worst.

When you live in North China, as I did, you eat little rice and a lot of millet and maize, because that's what grows. And millet tastes terrible. God is it awful. Just disgusting. Cattle feed. It cannot be accurately be described, but it's thoroughly repellent.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Rye tastes like ass, who wants a grain that's ouzo-flavoured

 

Thank you I get the picture I will leave the thread now...

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Thank you I get the picture I will leave the thread now...

NO! Please don't! I posted at the same time you did, this wasn't a response to your post about whiskey! I promise. I was writing and hit submit and you must have just hit submit a second before me.

This is entirely about me hating rye bread. I don't drink because I'm Muslim, I have no opinion to have on whiskey.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

NO! Please don't! I posted at the same time you did, this wasn't a response to your post about whiskey! I promise

Sorry a little tender.

[Jeff]

We have rice, black rice, and brown rice. You can decide which terrestrial species are which.

As for cereal grains, we have einkorn coming out of Ernaldela, emmer coming from Dragon Pass, barley coming out of Peloria, spelt coming out of Ralia, rye in Fronela, and oats from Seshnela. After 16 centuries, these have intermixed quite a bit, so you get a mix of einkorn, emmer, and barley in Dragon Pass, etc. But there's a conservative strain as well, as the Grain Goddess' magic is extra good with her personal cereal.

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But millet? Millet tastes the actual worst.

Please.  Millet just breaks your teeth and comes out the back end looking the same as it went in the front.

Now, amaranth.  That's a nasty grain.  Why eat dirt when you can eat amaranth?

!i!

[Qizilbashwoman]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

After 16 centuries, these have intermixed quite a bit, so you get a mix of einkorn, emmer, and barley in Dragon Pass, etc. But there's a conservative strain as well, as the Grain Goddess' magic is extra good with her personal cereal.

honestly the fact that Esrolia isn't a hotbed of rice cultivation is a literal crime: it has the irrigation, the manpower, and the climate.

[Jeff]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

honestly the fact that Esrolia isn't a hotbed of rice cultivation is a literal crime: it has the irrigation, the manpower, and the climate.

But it isn't. Now that might be that the Middle Sea Empire never really got the chance or it could be that the Ernalda temples (which are likely major landholders) focus on einkorn, or it could be that no farmer wants to offend Esrola or it could be that in the Second Age there was rice, but most of the rice-cultivating area was destroyed in the Devastation of the Vent and nobody was left to reintroduce the Rice Goddess. Or it could be all of the above.

That being said, I have it on good authority that Queen Samastina is partial to black rice from her stay in Dosakayo. And Teshnite silks. I've heard that Melibite food stalls can be found throughout much of the city, selling black rice noodles fried with pork and crocodile. And spiced with local Fire Chilis. Quite a few Sartarite exiles got the taste for that, and I understand that that the Boldhome Geo's serves black rice noodles when they can get it as a patriotic statement.

[Martin]

48 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That being said, I have it on good authority that Queen Samastina is partial to black rice from her stay in Dosakayo. And Teshnite silks.

I would love to know more about Samastina's sojourn to Melib.

[davecake]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

Potatoes are not known in Genertela.

A retcon of course, and a very recent change at that - the Seven Mothers cult gave out potato bread and soup in Cults in Prax, and was still doing it as late as Eleven Lights in 2017. RQG in the only Gloranthan game in which the poor people of central Genertela were not offered potato bread. I'm not really sure why we had to have this change to very long established thing, but it was one of very few mentions of potatoes. 

Sandy, on the other hand, connects them to the Blue Moon, rather than the Red, claiming that the Blue Moon was killed and buried but grew under the ground as a potato. If you want to combine Jeff's edict against potato bread, and Sandys odd myth, so both are true, then the Blue Moon cult involved would not be the trolls of the Blue Moon Plateau, or the Loper people, but the Veldang of Pamaltela. Their usual staple food is presumed to be sweetgrass, the plant gift of Mwara the 'grain goddess' of Zamokil, which is a weird choice (sweetgrass is not actually a grass, but is a source of sugar crystals direct rather than starch), or millet (the remaining other Veldang live in Fonrit where the local grain goddess is Ernamorla the millet godess), but of course Zamokil is only where the Veldang live now, they used to live over much of Pamaltela. Potatoes could have come from anywhere there, or be a direct gift of the moon goddess. 

I also like the idea that (some cultivar of) potatoes do exist in Genertela, just like terrestrial potatoes other parts of the plant are highly toxic, and Annilla has chosen to conceal the good value of the roots from the world, so no one eats them. Except maybe Blue Moon trolls. 

As a weird aside, the word potato does occur one place in an RQG book - in the Bestiary, as part of the (psuedo-)scientific name of the bloodbird! 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

A retcon of course, and a very recent change at that - the Seven Mothers cult gave out potato bread and soup in Cults in Prax, and was still doing it as late as Eleven Lights in 2017. RQG in the only Gloranthan game in which the poor people of central Genertela were not offered potato bread. I'm not really sure why we had to have this change to very long established thing, but it was one of very few mentions of potatoes. 

Sandy, on the other hand, connects them to the Blue Moon, rather than the Red, claiming that the Blue Moon was killed and buried but grew under the ground as a potato. If you want to combine Jeff's edict against potato bread, and Sandys odd myth, so both are true, then the Blue Moon cult involved would not be the trolls of the Blue Moon Plateau, or the Loper people, but the Veldang of Pamaltela. Their usual staple food is presumed to be sweetgrass, the plant gift of Mwara the 'grain goddess' of Zamokil, which is a weird choice (sweetgrass is not actually a grass, but is a source of sugar crystals direct rather than starch), or millet (the remaining other Veldang live in Fonrit where the local grain goddess is Ernamorla the millet godess), but of course Zamokil is only where the Veldang live now, they used to live over much of Pamaltela. Potatoes could have come from anywhere there, or be a direct gift of the moon goddess. 

I also like the idea that (some cultivar of) potatoes do exist in Genertela, just like terrestrial potatoes other parts of the plant are highly toxic, and Annilla has chosen to conceal the good value of the roots from the world, so no one eats them. Except maybe Blue Moon trolls. 

As a weird aside, the word potato does occur one place in an RQG book - in the Bestiary, as part of the (psuedo-)scientific name of the bloodbird! 

Actually we got rid of potato bread and potatoes in the Guide.

[davecake]

2 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

But millet? Millet tastes the actual worst.

When you live in North China, as I did, you eat little rice and a lot of millet and maize, because that's what grows. And millet tastes terrible. God is it awful. Just disgusting. Cattle feed. It cannot be accurately be described, but it's thoroughly repellent.

I thought millet was native to Fonrit, with Ernamola the Millet goddess being the matched Grain Goddess?

It sort of made sense in Fonrit, as tasting awful and thus being an appropriate food for the Veldang slave classes, and being avoided by anyone who didn't want to be thought of as a poor slave who had to eat millet. 

There is more than one kind of domesticated millet - perhaps the type found in Slontos and the kind found in Fonrit are different. 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, davecake said:

I thought millet was native to Fonrit, with Ernamola the Millet goddess being the matched Grain Goddess?

It sort of made sense in Fonrit, as tasting awful and thus being an appropriate food for the Veldang slave classes, and being avoided by anyone who didn't want to be thought of as a poor slave who had to eat millet. 

There is more than one kind of domesticated millet - perhaps the type found in Slontos and the kind found in Fonrit are different. 

Millet is native to Fonrit and Slontos. No wonder the Slontans supported the Goddess Switch.

[davecake]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Actually we got rid of potato bread and potatoes in the Guide.

Yes,  but you didn't say anything about the Poor Fund menu (which is a minor thing), and did publish a book later mentioning potato bread, so it was kind of a stealth change. 

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, davecake said:

Yes,  but you didn't say anything about the Poor Fund menu (which is a minor thing), and did publish a book later mentioning potato bread, so it was kind of a stealth change. 

I didn't catch the error in 11 Lights.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sorry a little tender.

If you're tender, you obviously haven't had enough rye.

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

...

This is entirely about me hating rye bread...

Rye bread is very strongly-flavored!  It needs food that can keep up with it.  I commend pastrami & aged Swiss (or similar) cheese, with a strong mustard (not that piss-vinegar crayon-yellow stuff).

[Jeff]

Just now, g33k said:

Rye bread is very strongly-flavored!  It needs food that can keep up with it.  I commend pastrami & aged Swiss (or similar) cheese, with a strong mustard (not that piss-vinegar crayon-yellow stuff).

Which makes me think that pastrami and rye must be a Loskalm thing. Or maybe a Sog City delicacy.

 

[Austin]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I've heard that Melibite food stalls can be found throughout much of the city, selling black rice noodles fried with pork and crocodile. And spiced with local Fire Chilis. Quite a few Sartarite exiles got the taste for that, and I understand that that the Boldhome Geo's serves black rice noodles when they can get it as a patriotic statement.

I don't really have anything to contribute to the discussion on grain usage & grain goddesses, but I'd just like to note that, as a gamemaster, these sorts of details are wonderful to have!

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I have boldly assumed that the Red Moon brought the New World crops, not just maize. So now you have potato.

Historically, maize spread first. It reached the uplands of China so fast we don't even really know how it got there exactly. People think potato was the revolution but honestly maize conquered the most distant reaches of the world by like 1500ish. The Hmong were growing it deep in the mountainous regions of southern China, northern Vietnam and Thailand-Laos-Burma some fifty years after Columbus.

Chilis arrived in India in 1497, less than five years after transatlantic contact, which I find quite astounding honestly. It really goes to show that people are quick to adopt a good thing if they can get their hand on it.

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

One of the most deeply misleading things about Peloria is that it looks like Mesopotamia but honestly it's basically Russia in climate, complete with reindeer herding shamanic peoples right in the northern bits

Sumer-Siberia. Sumberia. Siber? Hm.

(I guess Oslir is basically the Ob/Irtysh. Well, perhaps more accurately the Volga in terms of development and terrain, but Ob in terms of direction & estuary.) 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Rye bread is very strongly-flavored!  It needs food that can keep up with it.  I commend pastrami & aged Swiss (or similar) cheese, with a strong mustard (not that piss-vinegar crayon-yellow stuff).

Rye bread is quite overpowering, though very good at creating a sustained sense of fullness (I'm looking at you, wheat and rice). It does however go excellently with cured meats and fish (especially salmon or, if you can get it, trout. ). Add some radishes, asparagus, dill, and some kind of citrusy flavor, or in more temperate climes, something else sour like common sorrel. Or you can slap some herring and onion on top of it (although pickling might be out of the question for Glorantha).Or shrimp. Or goat cheese! Not too bad, if you can get your hands on these sorts of things. Might be tough for your average Loskalmi or Junoran peasant though.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Sir_Godspeed

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

One of the most deeply misleading things about Peloria is that it looks like Mesopotamia but honestly it's basically Russia in climate, complete with reindeer herding shamanic peoples right in the northern bits

Peloria with its north-running central river is a bit like the Mississippi Valley rotated south to north. Do the Eolians really herd the reindeer, or are they more like the Lulesami in Viking times, following the herds in a nomadic hunters' cycle?

 

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Rye tastes like ass, who wants a grain that's ouzo-flavoured

Jeff has been acculturated to rye-bread land Germany for quite a while now...

 

There are few countries that produce a decent wheat bread - France, obviously, and at least Juteland in Denmark.

US hamburger and hot-dog buns are at the bottom of what the art of bakery may produce, alongside with all those other breads that are already stale when taken out of the oven (looking at Northern Norway, here, a country which convinced me to bake my own bread while I worked there...). I shudder at the thought of having those bakers use rye...

 

I was raised on gray bread - half wheat, half rye. Yummy while fresh from the oven, ok after a day, cardboard afterwards. Even with chemical additives keeping moisture up, the taste deterioration remains. That, or full grain rye bread, which goes well with lightly flavored cheeses.

 

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

honestly the fact that Esrolia isn't a hotbed of rice cultivation is a literal crime: it has the irrigation, the manpower, and the climate.

Esrolia works well for other cereals. I am not convinced that the Loess soil that you find south of Peloria is that well suited for rice, anyway.

You wouldn't have wanted rice paddies during the Flood Age. They are basically an invitation for neighboring bodies of water to go where you grow your food.

Is there any rice grown in the Nile Delta? Similar conditions to the Esrolian mesopotamia.

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

But it isn't. Now that might be that the Middle Sea Empire never really got the chance or it could be that the Ernalda temples (which are likely major landholders) focus on einkorn, or it could be that no farmer wants to offend Esrola or it could be that in the Second Age there was rice, but most of the rice-cultivating area was destroyed in the Devastation of the Vent and nobody was left to reintroduce the Rice Goddess. Or it could be all of the above.

One reason that rice growing didn't spread quickly may have been the preparation time for the wet fields - Esrolian irrigation is designed to keep the earth moist, not to drown the entire field. Hence you will have furrows for the water to distribute, but not necessarily on level ground - these furrows work better if the field is slanting somewhat so that the lower part receives some of the water let in above, too.

Slontos was as suited for rice, but had millet. (No wonder they did the Goddess Switch there...)

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

That being said, I have it on good authority that Queen Samastina is partial to black rice from her stay in Dosakayo.

1622, first contact with Argrath and Harrek?

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

And Teshnite silks.

Are they different from Kralori ones?

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I've heard that Melibite food stalls can be found throughout much of the city, selling black rice noodles fried with pork and crocodile. And spiced with local Fire Chilis. Quite a few Sartarite exiles got the taste for that, and I understand that that the Boldhome Geo's serves black rice noodles when they can get it as a patriotic statement.

Are those Fire Chilis an originally Caladraland product?

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Sandy, on the other hand, connects them to the Blue Moon, rather than the Red, claiming that the Blue Moon was killed and buried but grew under the ground as a potato. If you want to combine Jeff's edict against potato bread, and Sandys odd myth, so both are true, then the Blue Moon cult involved would not be the trolls of the Blue Moon Plateau, or the Loper people, but the Veldang of Pamaltela. Their usual staple food is presumed to be sweetgrass, the plant gift of Mwara the 'grain goddess' of Zamokil, which is a weird choice (sweetgrass is not actually a grass, but is a source of sugar crystals direct rather than starch), or millet (the remaining other Veldang live in Fonrit where the local grain goddess is Ernamorla the millet godess), but of course Zamokil is only where the Veldang live now, they used to live over much of Pamaltela. Potatoes could have come from anywhere there, or be a direct gift of the moon goddess. 

Potatoes are originally a highland plant, and while the moon itself may have counted as highland, Zamokil doesn't really.

As a nightshade plant, the proximity of the Enmal mountains as a guarantor for heat might work well enough, and without frost, the tubers will provide prolific expansion of the stuff. I have Turinamba in my garden, introduced as decorative plant. Now it is a pest.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I also like the idea that (some cultivar of) potatoes do exist in Genertela, just like terrestrial potatoes other parts of the plant are highly toxic, and Annilla has chosen to conceal the good value of the roots from the world, so no one eats them. Except maybe Blue Moon trolls. 

The tubers get toxic easily when exposed to sunlight, too. Not that trolls would worry about that. The toxins act as allergen in smaller amounts, too - a reason why I avoid any potato products that aren't thoroughly processed. Better acroleine than solanine.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

As a weird aside, the word potato does occur one place in an RQG book - in the Bestiary, as part of the (psuedo-)scientific name of the bloodbird! 

Using the Latin root for drinking as in "potable", I suppose.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Yes,  but you didn't say anything about the Poor Fund menu (which is a minor thing), and did publish a book later mentioning potato bread, so it was kind of a stealth change. 

If not potato, what other pre-Hon-eel ersatz starch did they bake into the bread? Turnips (the kind Beat-Pot had to peel)?

In the famines and ice winters after the great wars (both of them), rutabaga was used to extend just about any food in Germany, which quickly put it off the ingredients except for where I live. (I'll be having rutabaga mash tonight, again. Holstein-style, with plenty carrots and some beef, which may be Holstein, too.)

(Which reminds me of the unfinished waffling about cattle I promised some time ago...)

The turinamba I mentioned before might be a fitting replacement - a sunflower-like fruit stand, and edible (if smaller) tubers below.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Rye bread is very strongly-flavored!  It needs food that can keep up with it.  I commend pastrami & aged Swiss (or similar) cheese, with a strong mustard (not that piss-vinegar crayon-yellow stuff).

Where I live, bread is supposed to have a flavor...

Black whole grain bread goes well with curd and herbs, too.

 

13 minutes ago, Crel said:

I don't really have anything to contribute to the discussion on grain usage & grain goddesses, but I'd just like to note that, as a gamemaster, these sorts of details are wonderful to have!

Good to have such feedback ever once in a while.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Rye bread is very strongly-flavored!  It needs food that can keep up with it.  I commend pastrami & aged Swiss (or similar) cheese, with a strong mustard (not that piss-vinegar crayon-yellow stuff).

I'm allergic to red meat and dairy thanks to the Lone Star tick.