Spirits, and Where to Find Them

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I am shocked to note that no one has mentioned Dwarven distilleries yet.

Who had that campaign (looks suspiciously at @soltakss) where there was some sort of broken Mostal unit (not sure if it was a "Mostali" per se, or some kind of micro-Jolanti) that was, in essence, a walking, talking, distillery?  I don't -think- it was ever canonical, but my memories are a bit vague on this unit... NO, not from imbibing!!!

IIRC, it looked not dissimilar to a little pot-bellied stove on legs -- animate legs -- with a tray on the front where cups/etc could be set, and some arms sufficient to move said cups to various external valves and spigots.

As I recall, it moved relatively slowly, but NEVER needed to rest, so the players could "leave it behind" but it wanted to follow them, it would have caught up by morning (and still be ready to trundle onward).

I don't know WHY the players were eager to leave a mobile bar behind, however...

 

Edited December 14, 2019 by g33k
Not glasses, I think... But with Mostali, who knows?

[Lordabdul]

16 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

my heroes were brought into the Spirit Plane to close a gateway that had been placed close to Orlmarth clan lands by an evil Lunar witch.

Nice adventure hook! What kind of gateway was it? Was it a gateway to the Spirit World, like, so you could go there without having to know and cast Discorporate and leaving your body behind? How was the Lunar witch planning to use that gateway?

[jajagappa]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Nice adventure hook! What kind of gateway was it?

It was a gateway to connect a section of the Ash Creek (which in my campaign runs down from the Starfire Ridge, skirting the Cinder Pits, and flows through the Guardian Woods to reach the Nymie River by Orane's Loom) to the Dismal Swamp of Darjiin. The Ash Creek Lady is captured and imprisoned by demons from the Cinder Pits, so she's not there to protect the stream. Then the witch fashions the Gateway which allows a swamp to start forming and summoning a vough to inhabit it. So you start to get brollachans proliferating and other nasty creatures of the dark waters. All part of the Lunar plan to dominate and use/abuse the clan lands.

7 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Was it a gateway to the Spirit World, like, so you could go there without having to know and cast Discorporate and leaving your body behind?

No, really just connecting two distinct places in the Spirit World together that normally would not connect. 

 

[Joerg]

10 hours ago, Eff said:

It's actually currently debated whether distillation dates back to 3000 BCE or merely to 200 CE, but it's well within the range Glorantha draws on. Distillation of alcohol is not known until well into the Middle Ages, so I would definitely keep it a cultic secret that's only produced in small batches, outside the Mostali who presumably use it to clean things and drown out the horrors of seeing plants growing.

Distillation of birch pitch: at least fifty millennia, probably closer to 200. The Neanderthals were experts in this pyrotechnology, and the resulting pitch was the universal glue for just about any application that required sticking hard stuff together.

Distillation of potable spirits: no idea who started that, and with what method.

Chemistry alert: Temperature control without thermometers stuck into the gas is a bitch, although placing your wine or mash in a container that has the cooler attached inside boiling water, the temperature won't be enough to distil over too much water. If the cooler is allowed to run upwards a bit before branching off, you even have a fledgeling column effect, reducing the temperature for the stuff you collect at significantly below the temperature of boiling water.

Using boiling salt water (with the side effect of getting purified salt out of the brine) may rise the temperatures somewhat if you have sophisticated means of heating that water. But tossing hot rocks into a puddle inside a skin will keep the water boiling, too.

I haven't seen any suggestions for a paleolithic distillation apparatus, but a hollow bone or even a hollowed out branch might make a good cooler, and a suitably sized skull with the extraneous holes stuffed with clay or some sort of gourd might make a good vessel for the mash to evaporate in. Try and find archaeological evidence for such a method...

 

[soltakss]

On 12/11/2019 at 6:45 PM, lordabdul said:

Feel free to point out anything missing

RQ2 had Spirit Pools, where the Spirit Plane and Mundane Plane overlapped. We used to go there to refresh Bound Spirits lost to Resurrection. RQG mentions them obliquely.

RQ3 had Magical Landscapes, usually the scars of magical battles, where the divide between the Spirit Plane and Mundane Plane was very thin and things seeped through. They act as Spirit pools, to a certain degree.

I play that Temples act as Spirit Pools, but only for Cult Spirits. 

[soltakss]

17 hours ago, g33k said:

Who had that campaign (looks suspiciously at @soltakss) where there was some sort of broken Mostal unit (not sure if it was a "Mostali" per se, or some kind of micro-Jolanti) that was, in essence, a walking, talking, distillery?

Not me, I'm afraid. 

[Bohemond]

On 12/13/2019 at 3:43 PM, Eff said:

If we're talking about that kind of spirit, something that is a very My Glorantha Has Varied:

"The Babeester Gor cult preserves many secrets, many of which are entirely tedious and of no interest to anyone who is not part of the cult. However, one particular secret that they know is that of distillation. With the appropriate pottery, metal flasks, and/or glassware, any Axe Maiden can distill liquors. Generally, these are not available except in cities or in particularly wealthy temples, and the batches produced are small.

Liquors produced are fairly well divided between brandies, whiskies, cordials, and shochu/soju, though the last is relatively rare, as the Babeester Gor cult is almost absent in the rice-growing regions of Glorantha. These spirits are normally stored within the Earth temple itself and shared out for momentous occasions. Within the temple, they are more commonly used for temple orgies, high holy days, and to celebrate new priestesses.

In addition, the cult possesses the recipes necessary to distill special liquors with names like Fireball, Mad Dog, and Master Hunter. These potent drinks may be used to induce or enhance a berserk fury when drunk, and it is said that for an experienced Axe Sister even looking at a little flask of Master Hunter is enough to induce such a fury. It is said that these bear the same relationship to regular liquors as Widebrew does to beers and ales."

Given the nature of the materials that the goddess uses when she produces alcohol, and the way she acts when drunk, would anyone actually want these liquors?

[HreshtIronBorne]

1 minute ago, Bohemond said:

Given the nature of the materials that the goddess uses when she produces alcohol, and the way she acts when drunk, would anyone actually want these liquors?

Storm Bull, Angry Alcoholic Humakti, maybe some crazy devotees of other Death Gods... Harrek...

[Bohemond]

1 minute ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Storm Bull, Angry Alcoholic Humakti, maybe some crazy devotees of other Death Gods... Harrek...

Yeah, but remember, in the myths, BG brews with human blood. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

3 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Yeah, but remember, in the myths, BG brews with human blood. 

Definitely Harrek then, at least. 

[Eff]

1 minute ago, Bohemond said:

Yeah, but remember, in the myths, BG brews with human blood. 

Distillation isn't necessarily brewing! But here's a take on the origin of distilling:

Once, the earth was washed by the sea, warmed by the sky, caressed by the wind, and cooled by the dark.

There was a wedding happening. There were many weddings, in those days. Ernalda married Orlanth and that kicked off the whole thing. Elmal married Reydalda, and then Esrola married Elmal, and then Heler married them both. Vingkot married two wives, one bright and one dark, one warm and one cold. It was a wedding season. And whenever she felt like it, Ernalda would marry Orlanth again.

Weddings meant quite a lot, but among the most important things was making the Eight Known Drinks. No one could have a wedding without all eight. Eurmal had tried having one with only seven and he had had to be driven out of the tribe again. Vadrus had then been inspired, and had weddings with only five or sometimes six, and so those of his children he married off in that fashion had monsters for children of their own.

Minlister was the brewer of the Storm Tribe. No one was quite sure where he'd come from originally. Some said he was from the Dark. Some said he was a child of Elmal and Esrola. Some said he was made by Ernalda. Everyone wanted him as their friend, and many were the enemies of the Storm Tribe who sought to steal him away. As Humakt said one day, sharpening his sword, there truly was never a dull moment.

Today, though, Minlister was a bit drowsy as he brewed the Eight Known Drinks. His wonderful cauldron could brew anything with just water and Minlister's special touch, but, alas, he didn't bother to change out the amphorae as he made his batches. So when he was done, the wine was mixed with the wheat ale, the mead with the barley beer, the rice wine with the cider, and everything was plain and simply a mess. It is at this moment that Babeester came into the brewery.

Babeester was not overly fond of weddings, for she found them totally uninteresting in and of themselves and she was usually standing guard during them. But she was always appreciative of a good drink, and so she never complained about weddings. But she spent the preparations as well out of the way as possible. So she wandered in, looking simply to look and breathe in the lovely smell of drink brewing and breathing and aging. But as she went to the first amphora and inhaled, her nose wrinkled.

"Ah," she said, looking up to see where Minlister had been gnawing on his cauldron in a fury, "That's what's going on."

"I'll have to brew them all fresh!" Minlister cried, not really paying attention to her.

"Perhaps I can help," Babeester said.

"You?" Minlister asked, noticing her for the first time.

"I swear," Babeester said, "on the Styx that I will need none of your pottery and will do what I can entirely without your aid."

Minlister shrugged. "Okay," he said. And he went to brew more batches, because he was unsure.

Babeester went and gathered some of her aunt's experiments with pottery, and then went and gathered odd bits of glasswork, and finally set to work. She poured in the mixed and muddled drinks, and swirled them about, and finally saw what was what within each, and then poured each into their own bowls. And then she threw out what was left. And in this way, she separated each, the essence of each of the Eight poured into its own container.

But when she was finished, she realized that what she had made was something new. There was far too little of the drinks to fill more than a single amphora, if that. She tasted one, the essence of rye beer, and ran shouting for Minlister.

The two of them tasted them all, and realized that they were good and strong, far too much so for anyone to drink like they would mead or wine. So they sealed them up, and only shared them out a little bit at a time, and diluted them strongly whenever they did. 

But Babeester continued to work with them, and discovered many secret drinks that she shared with no one, not even Minlister, which she used in her sacred work from that point on.

[Bohemond]

On 12/11/2019 at 12:45 PM, lordabdul said:

Wyters

Wyters are a special kind of bound spirit, which serve and defend a specific community (clan, temple, city, army unit, etc.). A wyter is both bound to an animal or object, and allied to a person (the community's leader). Unlike normal bound spirits, wyters can travel outside of the bound animal/object. When bound to an animal, they can be transferred to another animal with a special kind of ritual.

I don't think you should look at wyters as Bound Spirits in RQ terms. I think they are much closer to Allied Spirits. A Bound Spirit is essentially a thrall. It has lost the use of its will and simply does what its master/holder/owner dictates (it cannot cast magic on its own, merely act as a POW battery). Wyters are presented as beings that have their own agenda, free will, and desires. They have to be kept happy and can withdraw their favor if the clan does something problematic.The clan founder usually has to negotiate a deal of some sort--sacrifice and worship in exchange for divine patronage and protection. All of that suggests that the clan essentially allies the Wyter and renews the relationship regularly. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Bohemond

[scott-martin]

2 minutes ago, Eff said:

But Babeester continued to work with them, and discovered many secret drinks that she shared with no one, not even Minlister, which she used in her sacred work from that point on.

Given the persistent rumor of testicles in RL elixir formulations (Fulcanelli opens the door in a dress) I would suspect blood is only the tip of the taboo factor. OTOH someone needs to step up to supply the known potion market and until Minlinster starts loading real spell points into craft beer or the beards come up with something useful I guess people will have to keep on making difficult choices. 

[Joerg]

22 minutes ago, Eff said:

Distillation isn't necessarily brewing! But here's a take on the origin of distilling:

A very nice story on the subject of separation, but I miss the essence of distilling - the transmutation of liquid to steam(fumes and back to liquid.

Steam is a well known effect in Glorantha - shamans use steam huts for their journeys, and the cleansing effect is used mundanely as well by many cultures. Steam is useful for straightening or bending wood along with the grain, a valuable technology for making spears, ships' planks and numerous other items.

Beer is heated, and overheating beer gives you intoxicating fumes - something certainly also used by shamans and other holy people going into trance. These fumes may collect on the outside of vessels filled with cold water, and licking your fingers after wiping such a vessel will give you the taste of liquor.

The principles of distillation are open to discovery by observation, and possible in the practices of holy people. And anything which creates intoxication will find its way into ritual use.

The secrets of booze come in two steps - that of fermentation, the making of wine, beer, kumiss, often a two-step fermentation starting with making the starch accessible and then producing the alcohol and the sparkling - and the separation of the booze from the water and solids.

Separation of liquids usually involves a phase change - or in Gloranthan terms, a transmutation to fumes (Air) or solids (Ice, Earth), rarely the method of extraction with immiscible fluids (oil and water). The use of Heat or Cold, powers associated with Fire and Darkness.

These methods are well known to perfumers, dyers, and herbalists and apothecaries. And of course alchemists.

 

The mystical goals of alchemy are paired with observations of material transmutation. The smelting of metal from ores is as much a mystery as is the condensation of fumes with the production of liquids and resins (including pitch) or the precipitation of crystals (including edible ones like sugar e.g. in honey or syrup, or salt) from liquids or even fumes (like salts of hartshorn).

This may very well be an animist procedure - with the spirit (in the sense of elemental spirits of a special kind) being summoned or called out of the original substance.

The ritual @Eff describes is a combination of such a summoning and a separation. As such, it is an interesting version of an alchemical technique. But I wouldn't call this distillation.

 

A myth about distillation is a myth about steam - the violent meeting of water - water separated or separating from the sea, a Heler theme - and the hot earth or liquid rock of Lodril/Veskarthen. And then a myth about how that released spirit condenses again.

The use of lead pans for the crystallization of salt from brines (greetings from Nelat) is an ancient technology, and there is bound to be a myth about this, too. With the myths about the animated Stone, there may be lesser myths or allegoric stories to explain these processes, trade secrets that are conserved in crafters' guilds and/or cults. Or in the knowledge cult.

With both Heler and Nelat involved in this, the mysteries of the weird secrets of liquids (including the weirdness of liquid Sea Metal) is a sorcerous approach to the seas. By people outside of the seas...

 

 

 

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

On 12/11/2019 at 6:45 PM, lordabdul said:

Wyters

Wyters are a special kind of bound spirit, which serve and defend a specific community (clan, temple, city, army unit, etc.). A wyter is both bound to an animal or object, and allied to a person (the community's leader). Unlike normal bound spirits, wyters can travel outside of the bound animal/object. When bound to an animal, they can be transferred to another animal with a special kind of ritual.

I don't think you should look at wyters as Bound Spirits in RQ terms. I think they are much closer to Allied Spirits.

Wyters are much closer to the old concept of Landscape Spirits, from Hero Wars/HeroQuest, or, even better, to the Guardians of Hero Bands.

They are the esprit du corps, the embodied spirit of the group. Ginna Jar is effectively the Lightbringers' Wyter on the Lightbringer Quest and She Who Waits performs the same role for the Seven Mothers.

Where a Wyter is an animal, it is not bound into the animal, it is the animal. In other words, the Wyter manifests as an animal.

So, in a Praxian Herd, one of the Herd Beasts could be the manifestation of the Wyter, or the Wyter could be unmanifasted and simply be the spirit that controls the herd.

Among the Red Cow clan, the Wyter could well be a red cow.

The Grazelanders could have Wyters that manifest as Goldeneye Horses.

 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Bohemond said:

I don't think you should look at wyters as Bound Spirits in RQ terms. I think they are much closer to Allied Spirits. A Bound Spirit is essentially a thrall. It has lost the use of its will and simply does what its master/holder/owner dictates (it cannot cast magic on its own, merely act as a POW battery). Wyters are presented as beings that have their own agenda, free will, and desires.

You shouldn't pay too close attention to my wording   The goal was to be an exhaustive list, not as a descriptive list. I changed the wording slightly, to "allied/bound", because wyters (like I say a sentence later) are both allied (to the community leader) and bound (to a sacred animal or object).

There was a short discussion not too long ago, however, about whether wyters really do have free will and their own agenda or not. So far I haven't found any text that indicates one way or the other, but what makes me wonder about it is that AFAICT there is no precedent of a wyter going against the will of the community leader -- usually when something "wrong" is done, it tends to be the ancestor spirits who show up and complain. There are also no rules or anything about having to convince or negotiate with a wyter when you ask it to do something. So... I don't know. Needs more research. Or more @Joerg  

[Lordabdul]

4 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Where a Wyter is an animal, it is not bound into the animal, it is the animal. In other words, the Wyter manifests as an animal.

Errr I'm not sure if you're just making a poetic narrative statement, but in practical terms, no, the wyter is bound into the animal. There was a normal animal (generally raised specifically for the purpose of hosting the animal), and then there was a ritual, and then the wyter took residence in the animal. When the animal gets old, they have another animal prepared to transfer the wyter to.

[soltakss]

10 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Errr I'm not sure if you're just making a poetic narrative statement, but in practical terms, no, the wyter is bound into the animal. There was a normal animal (generally raised specifically for the purpose of hosting the animal), and then there was a ritual, and then the wyter took residence in the animal. When the animal gets old, they have another animal prepared to transfer the wyter to.

Is that right?

If so, then I am surprised.

[Lordabdul]

16 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Is that right?

As far as I can tell, yes. RQG, p287:

If the wyter’s sacred object is destroyed or killed, the wyter is released, requiring a new heroquest to return the wyter to the community. Often when the wyter is bound to a living thing, it is ritually killed or destroyed allowing the wyter to be transferred to a new object without the need for a heroquest. For example, the wyter of the Enhyli Clan is bound to a sacred white stallion. When the horse reaches a specific age, it is sacrificed during a day-long ceremony, and the wyter is transferred to a younger stallion.

[Bohemond]

32 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Errr I'm not sure if you're just making a poetic narrative statement, but in practical terms, no, the wyter is bound into the animal. There was a normal animal (generally raised specifically for the purpose of hosting the animal), and then there was a ritual, and then the wyter took residence in the animal. When the animal gets old, they have another animal prepared to transfer the wyter to.

I think that's a very 21st century way of thinking about the issue. We want there to be a clear before/after cause/effect dynamic here. But that's very much a way of thinking conditioned by science. That's probably the way the God Learners wanted things to work. But I don't think that's the way Sartarites think about these things. 

An instructive example is the issue of how the Pharaoh become the embodiment of Horus in the late Pharonic period. The Egyptians of the period believed that the Pharaoh was fathered by the god Amun. But Egyptian pharaohs had multiple wives and therefore multiple sons. They did not have a system of primogeniture, so when the old Pharaoh is alive, there was no obvious (to us) way to say for certain which of the Pharaoh's sons were normal mortals and which one had been fathered by Amun. But when the old Pharaoh died and one of his sons emerged as the new Pharaoh, it became clear that he was the one who had been fathered by Amun. 

Similarly, if the clan's wyter is a sacred snake, the snake doesn't 'become' the wyter when the old one dies and the new one is chosen. It has always been the wyter, and the act of choosing it is more about recognizing the truth of the situation rather than making the snake something it wasn't. 

So I think RQG is explaining it for us scientific-minded moderns, not explaining how the Sartarites would see it. 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Bohemond

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Similarly, if the clan's wyter is a sacred snake, the snake doesn't 'become' the wyter when the old one dies and the new one is chosen. It has always been the wyter, and the act of choosing it is more about recognizing the truth of the situation rather than making the snake something it wasn't. 

So I think RQG is explaining it for us scientific-minded moderns, not explaining how the Sartarites would see it. 

While I'm totally open to this interpretation, there are precedents in Glorantha for things being embodied with a spirit/deity when, before, it wasn't. These precedents are Rune magic and heroquests. When you perform Rune magic, you are your god for a little bit. You weren't before, and you aren't after either. Similarly, when performing a heroquest, you do take on the role of a deity or other God Time entity. So the wyter spirit inhabiting a corn snake or horse or spear can be as much one interpretation or the other... I think both can fit anyone's Glorantha, and their Orlanthi mindset.

Edited December 15, 2019 by lordabdul

[Kloster]

4 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Given the nature of the materials that the goddess uses when she produces alcohol, and the way she acts when drunk, would anyone actually want these liquors?

Of course. My former character, a RQ III carmanian sorceror with heavy use of a 'transform water to Cognac' (sorry, I'm french, and thus partial, even if I love good whiskys) can confirm, there is always a market for alcohol stronger than the one the locals can produce. My father worked for 2 years (as teacher) in a part of France (Guyane) where the law permits 10 extra degrees (that means 20 extra degrees proof), and everybody wanted the local ones, not because they were cheaper, but because they contained more alcohol.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

A very nice story on the subject of separation, but I miss the essence of distilling - the transmutation of liquid to steam(fumes and back to liquid.

Steam is a well known effect in Glorantha - shamans use steam huts for their journeys, and the cleansing effect is used mundanely as well by many cultures. Steam is useful for straightening or bending wood along with the grain, a valuable technology for making spears, ships' planks and numerous other items.

Beer is heated, and overheating beer gives you intoxicating fumes - something certainly also used by shamans and other holy people going into trance. These fumes may collect on the outside of vessels filled with cold water, and licking your fingers after wiping such a vessel will give you the taste of liquor.

The principles of distillation are open to discovery by observation, and possible in the practices of holy people. And anything which creates intoxication will find its way into ritual use.

The secrets of booze come in two steps - that of fermentation, the making of wine, beer, kumiss, often a two-step fermentation starting with making the starch accessible and then producing the alcohol and the sparkling - and the separation of the booze from the water and solids.

Separation of liquids usually involves a phase change - or in Gloranthan terms, a transmutation to fumes (Air) or solids (Ice, Earth), rarely the method of extraction with immiscible fluids (oil and water). The use of Heat or Cold, powers associated with Fire and Darkness.

These methods are well known to perfumers, dyers, and herbalists and apothecaries. And of course alchemists.

 

The mystical goals of alchemy are paired with observations of material transmutation. The smelting of metal from ores is as much a mystery as is the condensation of fumes with the production of liquids and resins (including pitch) or the precipitation of crystals (including edible ones like sugar e.g. in honey or syrup, or salt) from liquids or even fumes (like salts of hartshorn).

This may very well be an animist procedure - with the spirit (in the sense of elemental spirits of a special kind) being summoned or called out of the original substance.

The ritual @Eff describes is a combination of such a summoning and a separation. As such, it is an interesting version of an alchemical technique. But I wouldn't call this distillation.

 

A myth about distillation is a myth about steam - the violent meeting of water - water separated or separating from the sea, a Heler theme - and the hot earth or liquid rock of Lodril/Veskarthen. And then a myth about how that released spirit condenses again.

The use of lead pans for the crystallization of salt from brines (greetings from Nelat) is an ancient technology, and there is bound to be a myth about this, too. With the myths about the animated Stone, there may be lesser myths or allegoric stories to explain these processes, trade secrets that are conserved in crafters' guilds and/or cults. Or in the knowledge cult.

With both Heler and Nelat involved in this, the mysteries of the weird secrets of liquids (including the weirdness of liquid Sea Metal) is a sorcerous approach to the seas. By people outside of the seas...

 

 

 

Well, in this case specifically, I decided to invoke the use of copper in stills in the real world, since I was concerned with an almost Malkionic "how does the intersection of Separation and Earth manifest itself beyond sacred guardianship"? 

[Bohemond]

7 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Of course. My former character, a RQ III carmanian sorceror with heavy use of a 'transform water to Cognac' (sorry, I'm french, and thus partial, even if I love good whiskys) can confirm, there is always a market for alcohol stronger than the one the locals can produce. My father worked for 2 years (as teacher) in a part of France (Guyane) where the law permits 10 extra degrees (that means 20 extra degrees proof), and everybody wanted the local ones, not because they were cheaper, but because they contained more alcohol.

Yes, but would you drink it if it were manufactured with human blood instead of water? Remember, BG gets drunk on the -blood- of her enemies. For her cult, this is part of the 'sacred cannibalism' rituals. But the rest of Heortling society is very uncomfortable with this aspect of the Dark Earth. 

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Bohemond said:

Yes, but would you drink it if it were manufactured with human blood instead of water? Remember, BG gets drunk on the -blood- of her enemies. For her cult, this is part of the 'sacred cannibalism' rituals. But the rest of Heortling society is very uncomfortable with this aspect of the Dark Earth. 

The black pudding and Blutwurst at Earth temple dinners just can't be beat, though!