What is the proportion of Initiates among a population?

[Corvantir]

While preparing this weekend's session (canceled at the last minute 😭), it occured to me that I had no idea about the proportion of Initiates among a given population.

I was actually jotting down a few notes about Duke Raus' bodyguards at the start of "scouting the land" (Adventure 1 of the Borderlands campaign) and was hesitating about their cult status when I realized that I was almost systematically thinking about them as being dedicated to a given deity, whereas the vast majority of Gloranthans are certainly Lay Members only of many associated cults.

I started to look at various sources and HeroQuest: Glorantha quickly confirmed that I was probably right as we are told that "Initiation into a cult is a serious step, for individuals pledge themselves body and soul to the deity" (HQ:G p.143). This is definitely not something for everybody. In the same spirit, the Imperial Lunar Handbook (volume 1) tells us that the majority of Dara Happans are just Lay Members of many cults: "most Dara Happans are communal worshippers only; they do not initiate or devote themselves to gods, although they do not frown on those who do" (ILH vol 1, p. 19). But it does not seem to be the most common attitude towards religion as we are told elsewhere that "many Carmanians initiate or devote themselves to a specific deity" (ILH vol 1, p. 42), and it is so in Rinliddi (ILH vol 1, p.22), Sylila (ILH vol 1, p. 28), Pelanda (ILH vol 1, p. 38) and in the Provinces (which include Tarsh) (ILH vol 1, p. 56).

I don't know really why but I imagine that most Pavis citizens are Lay Members only. On the contrary, I suppose that many Sartarites and Animal Nomads initiate or devote themselves to a specific deity. But the word "many" is rather vague and I have not found a source that could help me to estimate the proportion of Initiates in Sartar and Prax.

Does someone know of a source that gives at least a rough estimation of the proportion of Initiates ? If not, would you be kind enough to share your take on this matter ?

Edit: Well, I should have checked HeroQuest 1 before posting as it tells us that most Heortlings "initiate or devote themselves to a specific deity" (HQ1, p. 48) and that "most [Bison People] adults are practitioners of the Eiritha Practice (women) or Waha Practice (men)" (HQ1, p. 39). "Most" remains rather vague though. And about the Bison People, though it reminds me that most are Spirit Worshipers, it still doesn't tell me how many of them are Initiates of Waha or Eiritha.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Corvantir

[Oracle]

Note, that there is a difference between being initiated to a certain cult (as most youths are in Orlanthi culture) and being an Initiate (with capital I) in a certain cult.

From my perspective the difference is the same as (using Christianity as the example here) being through your confirmation/communion (which means, you are now allowed to participate in religious rituals like any other adult) and being a member of the clergy or a monk or something similar (which means, you are a dedicated member of this religion).

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Oracle said:

Note, that there is a difference between being initiated to a certain cult (as most youths are in Orlanthi culture) and being an Initiate (with capital I) in a certain cult.

From my perspective the difference is the same as (using Christianity as the example here) being through your confirmation/communion (which means, you are now allowed to participate in religious rituals like any other adult) and being a member of the clergy or a monk or something similar (which means, you are a dedicated member of this religion).

I think "ordinary rank and file" are called "lay members" and NOT considered to be "initiated"... 

There is a whole "initiated into adulthood" thing, but that's social/cultural, not religious.  You probably sacrificed to the local Wyter.

[g33k]

I don't recall that specific percentages have been pinned down by anyone "official" (though I suspect so).  However, Sartar having a shockingly-high (from the POV of the invading Lunar armies) portion of Initiates, that HAS been stated.

 

Commander:  "What do you MEAN, he's too tough for you?!?  You're a squad of Imperial Soldiers!  He's one stupid cowherd!!!"

Squadie:  "Sir, yes SIR!  He's one stupid cowherd, sir, who can Fly and cast Lightning, Sir!"

[Jon Hunter]

I'm of the opinion that at least in orlanthi Society every adults is an initiate.

Most of the worshiper as lay members in an orlanth society, will be ad hoc worship of Gods within the pantheon, which you are not initiated to.

Other cultures maybe more restrictive.

I've seen very NPC's stated up in RQ who are not at least initiates 

[Tindalos]

I personally prefer the idea that Initiates are somewhat rarer, maybe one in ten adults, and that most Orlanthi farmers don't have the kind of flashy rune magic adventurers love (and that seem to be available to regular herders in scenarios)

IMG most Orlanthi are lay members, referring to that subcult/form of worship as Orlanth Allfather. (In a similar manner to Yelm/Yu-Kargzant the Youth and having access to some spirit magic in the same way.)

 

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I personally prefer the idea that Initiates are somewhat rarer, maybe one in ten adults, and that most Orlanthi farmers don't have the kind of flashy rune magic adventurers love (and that seem to be available to regular herders in scenarios)

While that's perfectly fine for your game, there is canonical precedent that, indeed, pretty much every adult in Orlanthi society is an initiate of a cult (for instance, see the Red Cow books, they have detailed numbers). However, that doesn't mean all farmers can fly and shoot lightning bolts -- that's for Orlanth Adventurous initiates. Most farmers might be initiates of the main Orlanth cult, or some other subcult like Barntar, and therefore have more "utility-oriented" Rune magic that they can use a couple times per season to help with herding or hunting or whatever (I don't imagine they have, on average, more than 1 or 2 Rune points). What they do all have though, as initiates, is spirit magic, and that's why an army of Orlanthi "farmers" is still going to be a dangerous mob of Fanaticism-enhanced, Bladesharp-wielding people. They might not have all the spirit magic spells, because frankly they have better things to do than spend days in the local temple learning about that stuff, but they probably still have some.

[Tindalos]

1 minute ago, lordabdul said:

While that's perfectly fine for your game, there is canonical precedent that, indeed, pretty much every adult in Orlanthi society is an initiate of a cult (for instance, see the Red Cow books, they have detailed numbers). However, that doesn't mean all farmers can fly and shoot lightning bolts -- that's for Orlanth Adventurous initiates. Most farmers might be initiates of the main Orlanth cult, or some other subcult like Barntar, and therefore have more "utility-oriented" Rune magic that they can use a couple times per season to help with herding or hunting or whatever (I don't imagine they have, on average, more than 1 or 2 Rune points). What they do all have though, as initiates, is spirit magic, and that's why an army of Orlanthi "farmers" is still going to be a dangerous mob of Fanaticism-enhanced, Bladesharp-wielding people. They might not have all the spirit magic spells, because frankly they have better things to do than spend days in the local temple learning about that stuff, but they probably still have some.

Apart from there is no main Orlanth cult or Barntar subcult; as listed you're either Thunderous, Rex, or Adventurous. Barntar's an associate cult, providing the one spell really useful to farmers, and Rex is only for tribal leaders and up. (And also none of the herders or farmers we've seen statistics for have had Tame Bull either)

And lay members do have access to their cult's spirit magic (RQ:G 253) so that same mob of farmers could still have those spirit magic spells and others, without also needing to be also lobbing thunderbolts (which is a typical runespell of militias apparently) and if most people are lay members, I don't see why farmers should be initiated into the deeper mysteries.

[Lordabdul]

4 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Apart from there is no main Orlanth cult or Barntar subcult

I think it's just because RQG is biased towards adventurers. We will probably get more info on what full-time farmers worship in the upcoming Cults book (especially the Barntar sub-cult). Then again, there is the fact that, to some degree, all Orlanthi farmers are actually adventurers -- at least, they go raiding, join the rebellion, participate in battles, etc... and then come back to their farm. That's technically what the "downtime" represents between seasonal adventures, no?

7 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

And lay members do have access to their cult's spirit magic

True but they have to pay full price for it. Even as an initiate you only get the spell for half-price. Not many people might have the money or time to spend, so I don't imagine they have many spells at their disposal.

8 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I don't see why farmers should be initiated into the deeper mysteries.

Isn't the whole adulthood ritual in Orlanthi culture about getting initiated into an Orlanthi cult? At least that's what I understood from Jeff's descriptions and some HQ books. But yeah, it can also probably work fine if they merely come out as lay members. Thinking about the Red Cow stats again, I'm actually not even sure HQG makes a difference between lay members and initiates? (I think they only distinguish between Rune Lord and the rest?) So I'm not sure how to interpret those numbers, come to think of it...

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I think it's just because RQG is biased towards adventurers. We will probably get more info on what full-time farmers worship in the upcoming Cults book (especially the Barntar sub-cult).

Oh sure, RQG is biased towards adventurers, it's just that it's biased towards that even for non-adventurers getting that kind of magic.

20 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Isn't the whole adulthood ritual in Orlanthi culture about getting initiated into an Orlanthi cult? At least that's what I understood from Jeff's descriptions and some HQ books. But yeah, it can also probably work fine if they merely come out as lay members. Thinking about the Red Cow stats again, I'm actually not even sure HQG makes a difference between lay members and initiates? (I think they only distinguish between Rune Lord and the rest?) So I'm not sure how to interpret those numbers, come to think of it...

That's one of those fun blurred areas. "Nearly every adult is initiated into the cult of a specific deity" (RQ:G 73), and also refers to initiates officiating at ceremonies with "most who belong to a cult being lay members." (269), with gods ignoring the requests of lay members as their not part of the hierarchy.

I'd rather have Lay Membership matter somewhat as otherwise there's little distinction between the role existing or not and spirit magic and training just being allowed to all.

[g33k]

37 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

...

Isn't the whole adulthood ritual in Orlanthi culture about getting initiated into an Orlanthi cult? ...

I don't think so.

I expect SOME young adults initiate into a Cult as part of the adulthood initiation, but I expect that's pretty unusual.  Adulthood rites let you join the fyrd, hold property in your own right, swear fealty & other oaths, and so on.  It's fundamentally a tribal/clan social thing, not religious/cultic.  If you sacrifice, it's to the Wyter.

I think "adulthood" is a pre-requisite to joining a Cult, which generally happens later... seldom less than a season later, often up to a year, and occasionally more than a year.

 

[Lordabdul]

I just searched for "lay member" in my PDFs and:

• S:KoH says that people coming out of the Orlanthi adult rites are lay members (p76).
• It does however mean that the term "lay member" is in use in HQG (even though HQG mentions that it's not a term used by the Orlanthi themselves -- it's a God Learner term).... so it still means that the Red Cow numbers have everybody as an initiate in the clan (p15)
• From some passing mentions in HQG, the reason Lunars are more often lay members than initiates might be because few people have the Moon Rune at the required level, or at all... (so instead people initiate into other cults, or into the "Little Sisters" sub/associated cults).

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I'm of the opinion that at least in orlanthi Society every adults is an initiate.

Most of the worshiper as lay members in an orlanth society, will be ad hoc worship of Gods within the pantheon, which you are not initiated to.

"Every" has to be taken with a grain of salt, as there are Orlanthi known to follow the shaman's path of animism.

But then, a clan adult will be sort of an initiate to the wyter, regardless whether he or she has committed to a specific deity.

 

Emerging from adulthood initiation as an initiate of the main deity (Orlanth, Ernalda) is possible, and may be the mark of a magically strong person. Emerging from it as an initiate of another deity may be the path towards becoming a holy person. (Or unholy, if that deity is regarded as a foe of the clan's mainstream deities).

 

Six out of seven Orlanthi will be initiated to the mainstream deities. There will be some spirit worshipers, possibly via Daka Fal (is that a cult initiation?) or via Kolat, Serdodrosa or some other animist tradition.

 

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

Other cultures maybe more restrictive.

I don't think of that as being restrictive. The expectations of those cultures are different.

7 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

I've seen very NPC's stated up in RQ who are not at least initiates 

Classic RQ may have been a bit overboarding with cult ranks, especially the rune masters with one each of rune priest, rune lord and rune lord-priest.

RQ3 had 70% of the population know magic like Bless Crops, Cloud Call and similar agriculturally important stuff. The runepower method has diluted this somewhat, but cult special rune magic still needs to be learned one sacrifice at a time. But where you had to sacrifice three points of POW in RQ3 to get three castings of Bless Crops, a single such sacrifice will allow you to cast your entire rune point pool on that spell.

 

6 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I personally prefer the idea that Initiates are somewhat rarer, maybe one in ten adults, and that most Orlanthi farmers don't have the kind of flashy rune magic adventurers love (and that seem to be available to regular herders in scenarios)

Herders don't usually call down lightning or thunderbolts near their herds, as they know that they won't  be near their herds after casting these spells.

I have some other concerns about the herder stats in the RQG adventure book. Like why are there so many women living and working in their birth clan?

 

 

3 hours ago, lordabdul said:

While that's perfectly fine for your game, there is canonical precedent that, indeed, pretty much every adult in Orlanthi society is an initiate of a cult (for instance, see the Red Cow books, they have detailed numbers). However, that doesn't mean all farmers can fly and shoot lightning bolts -- that's for Orlanth Adventurous initiates. Most farmers might be initiates of the main Orlanth cult, or some other subcult like Barntar, and therefore have more "utility-oriented" Rune magic that they can use a couple times per season to help with herding or hunting or whatever (I don't imagine they have, on average, more than 1 or 2 Rune points). What they do all have though, as initiates, is spirit magic, and that's why an army of Orlanthi "farmers" is still going to be a dangerous mob of Fanaticism-enhanced, Bladesharp-wielding people. They might not have all the spirit magic spells, because frankly they have better things to do than spend days in the local temple learning about that stuff, but they probably still have some.

To be well equipped in terms of spirit magic doesn't require any cultic initiation. There is no reason why Dara Happans wouldn't have a similar amount.

 

3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Apart from there is no main Orlanth cult or Barntar subcult; as listed you're either Thunderous, Rex, or Adventurous. Barntar's an associate cult, providing the one spell really useful to farmers, and Rex is only for tribal leaders and up. (And also none of the herders or farmers we've seen statistics for have had Tame Bull either)

As true to the setting as the RQG rules are, they and the scenarios that have been published so far don't describe it completely. The RQG rules mention Barntar as the most popular male god for Esrolia, Tarsh, the Vendref. RQ2 Compendium added Heortland.

3 hours ago, Tindalos said:

And lay members do have access to their cult's spirit magic (RQ:G 253) so that same mob of farmers could still have those spirit magic spells and others, without also needing to be also lobbing thunderbolts (which is a typical runespell of militias apparently) and if most people are lay members, I don't see why farmers should be initiated into the deeper mysteries.

Orlanth is very much an every man's god, so the society formed after his example should emulate that.

Elsewhere, the majority of people may not have made the initiate bond which anchors their soul at that deity's Otherworld demesne.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I think it's just because RQG is biased towards adventurers. We will probably get more info on what full-time farmers worship in the upcoming Cults book (especially the Barntar sub-cult). Then again, there is the fact that, to some degree, all Orlanthi farmers are actually adventurers -- at least, they go raiding, join the rebellion, participate in battles, etc... and then come back to their farm. That's technically what the "downtime" represents between seasonal adventures, no?

It doesn't have to be their farm - if pledged to a leader, the downtime may as well represent time in his entourage.

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

True but they have to pay full price for it. Even as an initiate you only get the spell for half-price. Not many people might have the money or time to spend, so I don't imagine they have many spells at their disposal.

There is ancestor worship... That's a different price to pay.

 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Isn't the whole adulthood ritual in Orlanthi culture about getting initiated into an Orlanthi cult?

The Heortling male initiation is about adulthood, but doesn't necessarily lead to cult initiation. The archetypal quester who underwent the Second Son rites, King Heort, was a shaman, not an initiate of Orlanth.

 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

At least that's what I understood from Jeff's descriptions and some HQ books. But yeah, it can also probably work fine if they merely come out as lay members.

Lhankor Mhy initiation requires completion of some studies that are usually beyond the abilities of a newly coined adult. If adult initiation was cultic initiation, then every LM initiate would have a previous initiation to some other deity's cult. That's not what I observe.

 

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

Thinking about the Red Cow stats again, I'm actually not even sure HQG makes a difference between lay members and initiates? (I think they only distinguish between Rune Lord and the rest?) So I'm not sure how to interpret those numbers, come to think of it...

As far as I recall, the difference is made. In HQ1, as an initiate you could augment abilities with your affinities and break-outs, but this magic could not be used as an active ability until you became a devotee. HQG doesn't make that distinction between rune levels and initiates, but as a lay member you had no way to acquire a deity's affinity..

[Corvantir]

Thank you all for your answers. I won't have the time to answer adequately tonight (it's 10:46 p.m. here) but I promise I will be there this weekend.

I know the difference between the adulthood initiation rites and the cult Initiations. As far as I know, everyone is initiated into adulthood and is at least Lay Member of a cult in Glorantha.

The initiation I am interested in is the Cult Initiation, and cult status in general. To be sure we are all on the same ground, here are the rough correspondance I have identified between cult statuses in RQ2/3 and HeroQuest (I don't know RQG well enough to include it):

- Lay Member (RQ2) = Lay Member (HQG)

- Initiate (RQ2) = Initiate (HQG)

- Initiate (RQ2) = Priest (HQG) Note: in HQG, a Priest is the one in charge of the cult of a specific god (or gods).

- Rune Priest (RQ2) = A particularly holy and respected Priest (HQG)

- Rune Lord (RQ2) = Devotee (HQG)

At first, I thought that the ratio of Initiates could be someting like 10 %. But that does not fit with "Most" as far as Sartar and Animal Nomads are concerned. Around 60 to 70% could be a good fit for "most". A 10% ratio sounds good for regions like Dara Happa where most of the people are communal worshippers. A ratio of more or less 25 % sounds good everywhere else. All this sounds good to me of course.

By the way, as far as I understand it, an Initiate in HQG does not seem to lose his Initiate status as long as he truly remains fervent, sacrifice to his god and respect the requirements stated in the cult writeup. It seems easier to keep ones Initiate status far away from a community in HQG than in RQ2/3.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Corvantir

[Jon Hunter]

9 hours ago, Corvantir said:

I know the difference between the adulthood initiation rites and the cult Initiations. As far as I know, everyone is initiated into adulthood and is at least Lay Member of a cult in Glorantha.

To my mind that is a false distinction they are one and the same. I challenge you a good range of adults to show stated in official publications whoa re not initiates, intiiatehood is near universal in adult Orlanthi society.

9 hours ago, Corvantir said:

At first, I thought that the ratio of Initiates could be someting like 10 %. But that does not fit with "Most" as far as Sartar and Animal Nomads are concerned. Around 60 to 70% could be a good fit for "most". A 10% ratio sounds good for regions like Dara Happa where most of the people are communal worshippers. A ratio of more or less 25 % sounds good everywhere else. All this sounds good to me of course.

 

The differences in other religion is possible and may fit, but its never been explicitly stated by anyone anywhere, YGMV but to claim that what glorantha is like doesn't reflect the wider held position.

IMHO the widespread nature of magic in Glorantha is a key component in what makes the world so unique & special.  To demystify the world and reduce magic to begin something that isn't common is not in keeping with the spirit of the world. Also to make the players a powerful subset of the population again seems to break the world view I have.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Jon Hunter said:

IMHO the widespread nature of magic in Glorantha is a key component in what makes the world so unique & special.  To demystify the world and reduce magic to begin something that isn't common is not in keeping with the spirit of the world. Also to make the players a powerful subset of the population again seems to break the world view I have.

I'd still say magic is important and widespread, but that no everyone would have rune magic.

And the character creation rules for RQ:G are expressly designed to produce proto-Heroes, rather than ordinary members of society (although nothing stops them from being both) as noted on page 23.

13 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanth is very much an every man's god, so the society formed after his example should emulate that.

Agreed, and if there still is an Orlanth Allfather/Orlanth the everyman subcult, that would be nice. Until then, I figure they'll have more affinity to the skill training and spirit magic Orlanth provides.

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

As far as I recall, the difference is made. In HQ1, as an initiate you could augment abilities with your affinities and break-outs, but this magic could not be used as an active ability until you became a devotee. HQG doesn't make that distinction between rune levels and initiates, but as a lay member you had no way to acquire a deity's affinity..

Well you could use your runes as augments, in the same way as a HQ1 Initiate, which in RQG terms is more like Runic Inspiration. In some respects the HQ1 "initiate" was more like a HQG/RQG Lay Worshipper, while a HQ1 "devotee" was a HQG/RQG Initiate. And of course in HW there was also the rank of Disciple, equal to Rune Priests/Lords, which became the role of Devotee in HQG.

[Jon Hunter]

10 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

I'd still say magic is important and widespread, but that no everyone would have rune magic.

And the character creation rules for RQ:G are expressly designed to produce proto-Heroes, rather than ordinary members of society (although nothing stops them from being both) as noted on page 23.

Initiates have always been almost universal in Gloranthan society, the modification of runemagic in RQG has made the casting of rune magic by initiates more common and accessible. This both affects PC's and NPC's.

How that affects everyone I think we yet to work out. IMHO  Most NPC's initiates would have a rune point total of between 1and 5, some will be alreday spent, and other points will be budgeted in for specific tasks before the year end, and sacred time renewal. Also most people would select day to day useful spells and no combat orientated options.

However with the new rules I would expect more NPC's initiates throwing rune magic around in life or death situations than we had before, I think that makes the game more engaging and interesting.

Its not just the PC's magic that got pumped in RQG.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Doesn't GtG or the Sourcebook pretty much outright state that pretty much everyone in Glorantha has some little magic available to them?

[Tindalos]

32 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Doesn't GtG or the Sourcebook pretty much outright state that pretty much everyone in Glorantha has some little magic available to them?

Certainly, but rune magic is not the only form of magic.

[David Scott]

Virtually every adult is a member of some kind of organised religion. Those that aren't are likely story hooks or outcasts in some form (or both). Membership = initiated (Rune cult, spirit cult, spirit society, magical school, magical organisation). Initiation is important for social acceptance and defines who you are in society, hence no membership = outcast.

RQ also has Lay membership as well which is so you can take part in the big ceremonies, but don't get to see or do the cool stuff, but you likely get fed and watered having donate some magic points. Lay membership in HQG is just colour with no real details needed.

Roughly 1 in a 100 initiates in a "big" magic person (RP, RL, Shaman, acolyte, sorcerer, etc.)

roughly 1 in 100 of those per cult is a "huge" magic person, although this varies from cult to cult.

eg Praxian Yelmalion Nomad = roughly 14.5k, so 145 Light Khans of which 1 a named hero for the Hero Wars.

[Tindalos]

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Virtually every adult is a member of some kind of organised religion. Those that aren't are likely story hooks or outcasts in some form (or both). Membership = initiated (Rune cult, spirit cult, spirit society, magical school, magical organisation). Initiation is important for social acceptance and defines who you are in society, hence no membership = outcast.

RQ also has Lay membership as well which is so you can take part in the big ceremonies, but don't get to see or do the cool stuff, but you likely get fed and watered having donate some magic points. Lay membership in HQG is just colour with no real details needed.

In which case there's some problematic language involved.

Initiates are important worshippers who officiate at sacrifices and take active parts at ceremonies. It's a society of priests, or an army of officers.

Does an Orlanthi clan have a disassembly line on their holy days so that every Orlanth initiate can have officiated over the slaughter of the cattle, running their knife across the neck of the cattle?

[David Scott]

2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

In which case there's some problematic language involved.

Initiates are important worshippers who officiate at sacrifices and take active parts at ceremonies. It's a society of priests, or an army of officers.

Not sure what you're saying here. 

6 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Does an Orlanthi clan have a disassembly line on their holy days so that every Orlanth initiate can have officiated over the slaughter of the cattle, running their knife across the neck of the cattle?

The "big" magic person would do this, they are also initiates, they are by definition in charge of the cult and other initiates.

[Tindalos]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Not sure what you're saying here. 

The "big" magic person would do this, they are also initiates, they are by definition in charge of the cult and other initiates.

The language used is that Initiates aren't just regular worshippers but the people who help manage the rituals, it's not just the role of a god-talker to manage sacrifices but all initiates. (RQG 269) it's why the god listens to initiates for the purposes of divination and divine intervention. Initiates perform the sacrifices themselves.

If there's intended to be a middle position between lay worshippers and the people who do the rituals, it seems glossed over.

[Jon Hunter]

1 hour ago, Tindalos said:

The language used is that Initiates aren't just regular worshippers but the people who help manage the rituals, it's not just the role of a god-talker to manage sacrifices but all initiates. (RQG 269) it's why the god listens to initiates for the purposes of divination and divine intervention. Initiates perform the sacrifices themselves.

If there's intended to be a middle position between lay worshippers and the people who do the rituals, it seems glossed over.

Within Glorantha an initiate is a committed worshipper, the role that you expect them fulfill is the role of priest, devotees, god talkers, shamans and  to a certain extend rune lords.

So

• A lay member is a casual or pantheistic worshipper.
• An initiate is a committed worshipper but not usually  leader.
• The religious leaders are Runelords, priests, shamans, etc.

However you start to get limited access to the cool magic at initiate level.

 

[Atgxtg]

9 minutes ago, Jon Hunter said:

Within Glorantha an initiate is a committed worshipper, the role that you expect them fulfill is the role of priest, devotees, god talkers, shamans and  to a certain extend rune lords.

Not to  mention alter boys, singers in the choir or people  who plays the  instruments during services. 

Basically its the devout people who devote time and effort to temple activities, as  opposed to the people who are nominally members but who do do too much.  But since Glorantha is so heavily focuses around the gods and religion, and as the cults grant access  to real  magical powers, people are  probably more into their church than  the average person probably is in the real world.  I'd s how  up more often to services and donate more if  it meant I  could  fly.

I suspect most non-adventuring initiates would probably  get more use out of the common rune spells, and stuff with more general utility.

Edited December 20, 2019 by Atgxtg