RQG One-use Rune magic

[Shiningbrow]

After re-reading the paragraph on p316, it basically means you have the knowledge of the spell, even without the actual cost in RPs of the spell, until it's finally cast.

So, the RPs for a spell you can cast only once still count against your CHA maximum.

Compared to previous editions, when you've spent the POW on the spell, it's already gone, whether you use it or not. The POW is spent for that one spell and none other.

Just thought I'd point that out. Whether it adds to the discussion or not...???

[Austin]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

My understanding of "one use" was obvious until the question was asked. Now I doubt ...

I feel the same. Although I'm probably an egregious munchkin, to me the knowledge/RP distinction was just what the text said, not a twisting interpretation. I hadn't thought to reconsider until David's answer to the OP.

[tnli]

I don't get this question. My interpretation is that they work as all other rune spells, except that you lose the rune points used to cast them permanently. 

The bit under spell trading could be directly from a previous edition. 

[Akhôrahil]

31 minutes ago, tnli said:

I don't get this question. My interpretation is that they work as all other rune spells, except that you lose the rune points used to cast them permanently. 

The bit under spell trading could be directly from a previous edition. 

Yes, I find the whole discussion super weird. The rules are the rules, and the rules are clear (outside of Spell Trading, but the general rule surely takes priority). Is it possible that the designers intended the spell knowledge to go away? That's possible, I guess, but in that case, they should have actually written that rule - intention counts as nothing!  

Edited February 10, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[JustAnotherVingan]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Yes, I find the whole discussion super weird. The rules are the rules, and the rules are clear (outside of Spell Trading, but the general rule surely takes priority). Is it possible that the designers intended the spell knowledge to go away? That's possible, I guess, but in that case, they should have actually written that rule - intention counts as nothing!  

I don't find the discussion weird at all. What you're arguing is that one-use actually means use as many times as you have the rune points for but you won't get the rune points back. I can see why some people are unhappy with that and it is a big change from previous editions if that's how it is intended to be played.

[Akhôrahil]

13 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I don't find the discussion weird at all. What you're arguing is that one-use actually means use as many times as you have the rune points for but you won't get the rune points back. I can see why some people are unhappy with that and it is a big change from previous editions if that's how it is intended to be played.

I'm arguing that it does what the rules say it does.

Anyone who wants to house-rule is obviously free to do so.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Thanks everyone for the input.

Its a tricky bit of text for sure, and could easily be clarified with a short sentence.

RAW  - I agree that if we are to read the explanation of One-Use Spells at face value, it reads that we only loose Rune pts permanently, it doesn't mention knowledge of the spell.  Which implies you can still cast the One-use spell using any remaining Rune pts. In this reading the limitation is that the Rune pts used for casting are lost permanently each time the spell is cast, not that the spell is forgotten/lost. The concept of Rune points as a generic pool of pts usable on any of your gods Rune Spells reinforces this reading. 

RAI - However as has been mentioned we do have to work off the title as much as the body of text that follows it. "One-Use Rune Spell" implies one casting, and significantly Its not titled "One-Use Rune Points". So on balance I feel that David Scott has the right of it, once cast you loose the spell and the Rune points.  An interpretation that keeps it aligned to the equivalent "non-reusable" spells in RQ2.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 10, 2020 by Paid a bod yn dwp

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I don't find the discussion weird at all. What you're arguing is that one-use actually means use as many times as you have the rune points for but you won't get the rune points back. I can see why some people are unhappy with that and it is a big change from previous editions if that's how it is intended to be played.

The real big change is the Rune Points.

[Psullie]

I feel that forgetting the spell is a double penalty. None of the 3 one-use spells in the book are common, so you either select it a char gen, or sacrifice POW to learn it later on. In effect casting a one-use spell costs 1 POW and 1 Rune Point and the latter is non regenerative. I don't think that p316 suggests that the spell is forgotten. 

[Austin]

This text from p.314, "Gaining Rune Magic Spells" may also be relevant to the discussion:

Quote

An adventurer gains access to cult special or associated cult Rune spells at the same time they sacrifice POW for Rune points. For each point of POW sacrificed, the adventurer acquires the right to cast an additional cult special Rune magic spell. As the magical link between the cultist and the deity deepens, the adventurer also gains a broader use of the deity’s power

When an adventurer becomes a Rune Master (God-talker, Rune Lord, Rune Priest), acquiring Enchantment spells becomes an additional option.

It is entirely possible that an adventurer has obtained access to all the cult’s special Rune magic (including from subcults, associated cults) and still wants to increase their Rune point pool. In that case, no new spells are obtained (as there are none left to obtain) but the Rune point pool still increases.

If one-use spells were gained and forgotten, I would expect this text to note that, as it would be a reason to keep sacrificing POW for knowledge if you had to re-acquire Enchantment spells.

[PhilHibbs]

On 2/9/2020 at 8:21 AM, g33k said:

You could argue that, yes.

I will allege that in fact you should argue that!

It is, after all, what the words say:  the obvious meaning.  Do we really need the rulebook to say that "one use" means "one use" ??!?

Yes, I wrote that somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Of course it's an obvious interpretation, maybe the obvious interpretation. How ever, I'm not a big fan of it, and if that were the official rule then I'd houserule it the other way. Main reason? Bookkeeping. And, I can't really see the reason for it, how it makes the game better. I really think it's just a terminological carry-over.

Storm in a teacup, really, not many players are going to be spending permanent RP on a regular basis.

Edited February 10, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Psullie said:

I feel that forgetting the spell is a double penalty... In effect casting a one-use spell costs 1 POW and 1 Rune Point and the latter is non regenerative. I don't think that p316 suggests that the spell is forgotten. 

Huh? I don't understand how you get to that conclusion. Lets say I have 3 RP. and I spend 1 POW to learn Gnome to Gargoyle, giving me 4RP. I can use those RP for anything, until I use Gnome to Gargoyle, and then that RP is gone. That's not a double cost. I'm only down 1 POW on what I was originally, nothing more than that, and I had an extra RP to use in the intervening time.

Enchantment spells used to be double-cost to initiates. You spend the POW to get the Enchant spell, then you cast it and spend more POW to make the enchantment. I once had a heated debate with a player who swore (literally, trooper-style) that he had already spent the POW and that it was unfair.

Edited February 10, 2020 by PhilHibbs

[Psullie]

45 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I spend 1 POW to learn Gnome to Gargoyle, giving me 4RP.

It's actually the other way around, your sacrifice POW to get Rune Points, you can know a numbers of Special Cult spells equal to their Rune Points. Once you know all the cults spells you can still increase your Rune Points. This actually supports David' statement about 'forgetting' the Rune Spell, you can't know more Special Cult spells than you have RP... may have to rethink my original view!

I was simply stating that to get the Rune Point cost you 1 POW in the first place, 

 

[Lordabdul]

13 hours ago, Crel said:

I think I am this example. (I'm not super new to RQ, but RQG is the only edition I've GM'd, and we never really used divine magic in my previous RQ3 game.)

I'm also new to RQ -- I've never GM'ed any edition before RQG.

When I read "one-use spell", I assume it is, indeed, a "one-use spell". I read that small section in the rulebook as additional information to answer the question of "what happens to the Rune Points I spend on the one-use spell" because, personally, without it, I would have made the spell disappear from the character sheet (because it's "one-use") but would have made the RP replenish (I would actually argue that it doesn't make much sense that the RP doesn't replenish, but that's another debate). But hey, if some people somehow interpret it another way then sure, adding another sentence to that paragraph is cheap and easy so they should definitely do that for future hypothetical release.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

What you're arguing is that one-use actually means use as many times as you have the rune points for but you won't get the rune points back.

Yeah, and if that was how it worked, it would be called "non-replenishing spell" or something. If that's how the rules worked, then the problem would be a terrible naming choice.

[JustAnotherVingan]

20 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah, and if that was how it worked, it would be called "non-replenishing spell" or something. If that's how the rules worked, then the problem would be a terrible naming choice.

Yep, I have no strong opinion on which way it should work, I just think that as written its clear as mud.

[g33k]

20 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Yeah, and if that was how it worked, it would be called "non-replenishing spell" or something. If that's how the rules worked, then the problem would be a terrible naming choice.

Also, if it were simply a matter of only the Rune Point being one-use -- but the spell something that stays permanently available -- it opens the HUGE can'o'worms of the "black hole" effect.

Say I pray for a "one use" spell that ISN'T one use (per the descriptions above:  I keep the One-Use spell after casting, and can cast it again)... just it's Rune-Point(s) is(are) "one use."

Now... what if  I keep the spell, not needing to cast that one, for a while.  I burn through all my RP casting OTHER spells, and go pray and get them back.  Do I get back that one-use Rune Point?  I didn't cast the One-Use spell.

Does the One-Use spell increase my Rune Pool until use that spell?  So I could keep the larger Rune Pool indefinitely, if I don't use that spell for an indefinite time?  Interesting thought.  Not a "black hole" effect, but interesting.

Now imagine the opposite -- I am in DIRE need of that One Use rune-spell.  So I cast it, and the Rune Point goes away.  But I need it again, and per this hypothetical it ISN'T in fact a "one use" spell, I still have it!  So I cast it again...  and again... and again... until I am out of RP's.

When it comes time to worship at Holy Day... do I get back ANY Rune Points?  If the thing that is "one use" about the One Use Spell is that the Rune Points to cast the spell are permanently gone, I think I can burn my entire permanent Rune Pool down to zero with that Black Hole version of a One Use spell.  Am I no longer an Initiate since I have no Rune Pool?

This would seem to be an obviously-implied consequence -- not an inevitable reading, but an obvious one.  Talk about needing to be clarified!!!

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, g33k said:

Also, if it were simply a matter of only the Rune Point being one-use -- but the spell something that stays permanently available -- it opens the HUGE can'o'worms of the "black hole" effect.

Say I pray for a "one use" spell that ISN'T one use (per the descriptions above:  I keep the One-Use spell after casting, and can cast it again)... just it's Rune-Point(s) is(are) "one use."

Now... what if  I keep the spell, not needing to cast that one, for a while.  I burn through all my RP casting OTHER spells, and go pray and get them back.  Do I get back that one-use Rune Point?  I didn't cast the One-Use spell.

Does the One-Use spell increase my Rune Pool until use that spell?  So I could keep the larger Rune Pool indefinitely, if I don't use that spell for an indefinite time?  Interesting thought.  Not a "black hole" effect, but interesting.

Now imagine the opposite -- I am in DIRE need of that One Use rune-spell.  So I cast it, and the Rune Point goes away.  But I need it again, and per this hypothetical it ISN'T in fact a "one use" spell, I still have it!  So I cast it again...  and again... and again... until I am out of RP's.

When it comes time to worship at Holy Day... do I get back ANY Rune Points?  If the thing that is "one use" about the One Use Spell is that the Rune Points to cast the spell are permanently gone, I think I can burn my entire permanent Rune Pool down to zero with that Black Hole version of a One Use spell.  Am I no longer an Initiate since I have no Rune Pool?

This would seem to be an obviously-implied consequence -- not an inevitable reading, but an obvious one.  Talk about needing to be clarified!!!

I don't even understand what you're trying to say here in the first example, but it seems you've managed to confuse yourself about something that is perfectly obvious. When you cast the one-use spell, you reduce your permanent rune points - you spend those in a way that means you won't get them back. You can do this multiple times if you like, reducing your permanent rune points each time. If you had 7 rune points in Daka Fal and cast two Resurrects, you now have 1 Rune Point left. If you drop to 0 Rune Points, obviously you can't regain any. The Rune Points don't have any memory about which spell each was originally connected to in learning. Of course a Daka Fal cultist who knows three spells, one of which is a Resurrect he didn't in fact cast, gets all three Rune Points back after emptying his Rune Point pool with non-one-use casting! Nothing about this is weird.

Now, there is one interesting thing here, which is separate from the rest of the discussion (it can happen even if you lose spell knowledge - just posit a Daka Fal cultist with three Rune Points and the Resurrect spell) - what happens if you drop to 0 Rune Points in a cult? Is that just fine and it's your problem, or does it somehow de-initiate you? There's not really any rules support for the latter, but one might argue that part of being an initiate is having at least some Rune Point connection to your god. (I would probably rule that you temporarily drop down to Lay Member, the same way as a Priest drops down to Initiate if the POW requirement isn't met, but the difference between a Lay Member and an Initiate with 0 Rune Points is pretty academic.)

Similarly, people can have a different number of Special Rune Magic than their Rune Points regardless - that has nothing to do with whether you forget the spell or not.

Edited February 10, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Now... what if  I keep the spell, not needing to cast that one, for a while.  I burn through all my RP casting OTHER spells, and go pray and get them back.  Do I get back that one-use Rune Point?  I didn't cast the One-Use spell.

Yes, that's the kind of weird thing that led me to quickly mention that I didn't agree with one-use spell Rune Points not replenishing. It opens up a bunch of cans of worms, and adds unnecessary complexity. Plus, how does it work if you get a one-use spell from a source that doesn't require POW sacrifice? Like for example you paid to get taught the spell at a temple, or you paid to get it through Spell Trading... you cast the spell and lose one RP forever? That's harsh, unnecessary, and doesn't make much sense IMHO.

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Is that just fine and it's your problem, or does it somehow de-initiate you?

It's just fine and it's your problem. What keeps a connection to your god is that you have a Rune Points pool, regardless of whether it's empty or not, and that you will come to its temple to pray and replenish pretty soon. That's what differentiates you from a lay- or non-member, which have no pool to begin with.

Edited February 10, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

53 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

It's just fine and it's your problem. What keeps a connection to your god is that you have a Rune Points pool, regardless of whether it's empty or not, and that you will come to its temple to pray and replenish pretty soon. That's what differentiates you from a lay- or non-member, which have no pool to begin with.

How big is the difference between no Rune Point pool, and a permanent Rune Point pool of 0, really? 🙂

[Lordabdul]

16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

How big is the difference between no Rune Point pool, and a permanent Rune Point pool of 0, really? 🙂

Err it's totally a big difference?

• Empty Rune Point pool:
  • To have obtained the RP pool in the first place, you previously sacrificed POW to a deity, thus establishing a link between you and them. You're an initiate of their cult, and get a bunch of benefits (like discount on training, etc.)
  • You get RPs back by rolling Worship. On a success, you get between a few and all of them back, depending on where and when this happens. The bigger the party, the more RPs you get back.
• No Rune Point pool:
  • You have never sacrificed POW to that deity. There's no link between the two of you. You're not an initiate of their cult.
  • You can crash someone's party, but no amount of Worship rolls, beer drinking, making out, or dancing will give you anything else than a headache and a potential visit from the Sexually Transmitted Disease Fairy from Mallia.

Edited February 10, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

19 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

• • You get RPs back by rolling Worship. On a success, you get between a few and all of them back, depending on where and when this happens. The bigger the party, the more RPs you get back.

You're still  not reading me correctly - by using one use spells, you can drop your permanent Rune Point pool to 0. There are no Rune Points to even regain! There are few obvious differences between this and Lay Membership.

[Lordabdul]

54 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

You're still  not reading me correctly

Oh you mean if you initiated into a cult by sacrificing only 1 POW to get only 1 RP for only a single one-use spell? That's a hell of a corner case... huh. I guess I would worry about it when it shows up?    Either keeping the character as an initiate, or bumping them down to lay-member, both sound fine to me.

(but I might never end up in this situation anyway since I don't like the non-replenishing RP thing, so I might house-rule it away)

Edited February 10, 2020 by lordabdul

[PhilHibbs]

27 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Oh you mean if you initiated into a cult by sacrificing only 1 POW to get only 1 RP for only a single one-use spell? That's a hell of a corner case... huh. I guess I would worry about it when it shows up?  

You might use up all 9 Rune Points resurrecting three people.

[Lordabdul]

Sure, if you were to abide by the "one-use spells can be used repeatedly" rule. Which I don't because, indeed, it can leave you a destitute lay-member even though you were previously a God Talker with a whooping 9 points Rune Points pool. Makes no sense to me.