Monty Lovering Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 Pike vs long spear with a really good view of the strap holding the shield to the pikeman. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) A Sartarite Yelmalian separated from his regiment facing off against a Pelandan hoplite. 1629, colorized. Obviously this Yelmalian has been been on the Hill of Gold Heroquest and defeated Zorak Zoran, allowing him to wear the color red. Edited February 11, 2020 by Richard S. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Monty Lovering said: Pike vs long spear with a really good view of the strap holding the shield to the pikeman. An excellent photo of the relative distance issues between the two. One thing that the pic does't show though is that the shield on the hoplite is going to be much more effective, because he can parry with the shield, whereas the phalangite can't really do much with the shield, though it does provide protection from that side (passive protection), and helps cover his mate to the left. A somewhat moot comparison though, as any self respecting phalangite would have dropped his pike already and drawn his secondary weapon and would be gripping the handle of his shield to counter the threat. SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 4 hours ago, Monty Lovering said: Pike vs long spear with a really good view of the strap holding the shield to the pikeman. Yes, that's why the classical phalanx didn't do well against the Macedonian. However, what that doesn't show is that the phalangites were in even closer order than used by hoplites, and hoplites/hypaspists were retained, because they were useful in covering the flanks of a pike phalanx, and a bit more adaptable to more rugged terrain.. The phalangite's shield is a small/medium shield, not large - effectively a hoplite shield without the rim. Here's an illustration from The Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 13 hours ago, Richard S. said: A Sartarite Yelmalian separated from his regiment facing off against a Pelandan hoplite. 1629, colorized. I always thought those b&w photos of Glorantha annoying... 😛 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 This visualization of how long a pike actually is made me realize something. Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, Richard S. said: This visualization of how long a pike actually is made me realize something. Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! And that makes me think of AoE spells 😃 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Richard S. said: This visualization of how long a pike actually is made me realize something. Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! You can, but it would take a lot of work. The Lunars could probably do it with some heavy infantry that use sword and large shield, similar to how the Romans were able to take down the Greeks. But why go to all that trouble when you can use Magic... or The Crimson Bat. SDLeary Edited February 12, 2020 by SDLeary 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Richard S. said: This visualization of how long a pike actually is made me realize something. Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! It has a number of weaknesses, though. The flanks have to be secure, or it's instant disaster. As the Romans proved, tactical flexibility can really chew up the phalanx (Pyrrhus was a great leader with a great army, but even so...). Tactical flexibility is really bad. They can't handle skirmishers (that's why they bring their own along). And in RQ, there's always magic - it can be like bringing up packed formations against artillery. Using the phalanx right is all about not getting into those troubles. Edited February 12, 2020 by Akhôrahil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 6 hours ago, SDLeary said: You can, but it would take a lot of work. The Lunars could probably do it with some heavy infantry that use sword and large shield, similar to how the Romans were able to take down the Greeks. But why go to all that trouble when you can use Magic... or The Crimson Bat. SDLeary Don't they have that? Moonswords, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 6 hours ago, Richard S. said: This visualization of how long a pike actually is made me realize something. Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! Most infantry Humakti Battalions carry a throwing spear in addition to their swords. If they can disrupt the front of a pike phalanx with their javelins, they can run in to exploit any breaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akhôrahil Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 20 minutes ago, M Helsdon said: Most infantry Humakti Battalions carry a throwing spear in addition to their swords. If they can disrupt the front of a pike phalanx with their javelins, they can run in to exploit any breaks. The availability of Sever Spirit out to be a huge deal - if you have a largish Humakti force, properly trained, they should be able to focus-fire Sever Spirit on a part of the enemy line, seriously disrupting it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 35 minutes ago, M Helsdon said: Most infantry Humakti Battalions carry a throwing spear in addition to their swords. If they can disrupt the front of a pike phalanx with their javelins, they can run in to exploit any breaks. This was exactly the roman method. Throwing a pilum when advancing, then a second just before contact to create holes, disrupt organization, wound or kill some opponents and block shields with the impales. Then, the heavy infantry chew the survivors with their swords. It worked perfectly fine versus phalanxes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 6 hours ago, M Helsdon said: Most infantry Humakti Battalions carry a throwing spear in addition to their swords. If they can disrupt the front of a pike phalanx with their javelins, they can run in to exploit any breaks. FEH! These are Humakti! They should carry throwing swords! SDLeary 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, SDLeary said: FEH! These are Humakti! They should carry throwing swords! SDLeary They do. It has a rather narrow, shortish blade, hardly any cross piece, and a very elongated wooden handle. 4 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 14 hours ago, Richard S. said: This visualization of how long a pike actually is made me realize something. Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! There are some videos on youtube where people face off with spears against swords and generally it's hard to get in close against a spear man without getting hit, especially if the spear man is in formation with others (who can help him out). A shield helps quite a bit, as does armor, since they allow the warrior to take a hit or two while closing. Pikes aren't so great if you don't have a unit to fight alongside, though. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir_Godspeed Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: There are some videos on youtube where people face off with spears against swords and generally it's hard to get in close against a spear man without getting hit, especially if the spear man is in formation with others (who can help him out). A shield helps quite a bit, as does armor, since they allow the warrior to take a hit or two while closing. Pikes aren't so great if you don't have a unit to fight alongside, though. I suspect the whole idea of spears being a "lesser" weapon that swords is a bit of a cultural bias that's stuck for some reason, maybe simply because a sword is usually more expensive to buy and therefore usually the property of landed elites who tend to be more trained by default, although who knows. Anyway, as you mentioned, spears are perfectly able to win out against swords. As far as I know it's really up to individual prowess, possible support, and of course dumb luck. Edited February 12, 2020 by Sir_Godspeed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted February 12, 2020 Share Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said: I suspect the whole idea of spears being a "lesser" weapon that swords is a bit of a cultural bias that's stuck for some reason, maybe simply because a sword is usually more expensive to buy and therefore usually the property of landed elites who tend to be more trained by default, although who knows. Yes that is certainly part of it. historically swords were a status symbol. I think RPG bias is a bit different. Most RPGs sort of boil down weapons to a damage stat and swords tended to either be top tier damage weapons. Quote Anyway, as you mentioned, spears are perfectly able to win out against swords. As far as I know it's really up to individual prowess, possible support, and of course dumb luck. Yeah, although the weapons chosen do factor in. For instance just a spear vs. just a sword is quite advantageous to the one with the spear. Edited February 13, 2020 by Atgxtg 1 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davecake Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 On 2/12/2020 at 12:54 PM, Richard S. said: Yes, a warrior with heavily buffed weapons, like a Humakti or Uroxi, will be a threat to normal soldiers, but against a disciplined Yelmalian regiment they can't even get close enough to attack! Magic, and as people have said, javelins to disrupt the line. Phalanxes are vulnerable to missiles. Which is why Yelmalio teaches Lightwall. I think Humakti might also try to hack at the pikes as they advance, trying to break them. Which why Yelmalio teaches Repair. Orlanthi will generally try to go for a flanking manoeuvre emphasising mobility. Which is why a Yelmalio force is never pure phalangites. But it’s still the best tactic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shiningbrow Posted February 15, 2020 Share Posted February 15, 2020 1 hour ago, davecake said: Magic, and as people have said, javelins to disrupt the line. Phalanxes are vulnerable to missiles. Which is why Yelmalio teaches Lightwall. I'm not sure how effective the Lightwall would be available archers - unless the phalanx is pretty thin... They're just going to loose to anything in a given range, rather than individual targets. Ok, the front line or three will be safe, but the rest will still get hit. Lightwall for about to hit melee - nasty if you're blinded and can't see that pike about to hit your face! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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