Storm Bull and Lunar Cults

[g33k]

16 minutes ago, GAZZA said:

Sure, but you can't reasonably expect players of RQG to have to refer to RQ2 supplements for the current rules. As I say I have most of the old RQ2 stuff in print, some of it in better condition than others, and I'm running River of Cradles converted to RQG - so sure, I personally could have done that, but RQG is supposed to be usable as a stand alone product (or at least not requiring any other products from older releases of RQ; it's probably fine to say you need the Bestiary, for example). Go too far down that path and you quickly start to wonder why you're not just flat out playing RQ2 instead.

While I am 100% in agreement with the notion that newer fans/customers should NOT be expected to have CoP on hand, or even to know that's where to find such info... 

... the info under discussion was a matter of what the (historical, pre-RQG) percentage of Storm-Bull cultists was in the (Lunarized, Chaos-accepting) Sable Tribe of Prax.   🤔

That's hardly the sort of thing that belongs in the RQG core book... or ANY core product, really...  It's not quite "deep lore," but it's distinctly an issue that will need a dive into reference materials!   🧐   And if one needs it, CoP is "available" for anyone to buy (in e-copy) at retail, not at an expensive collector's-copy price.

[GAZZA]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

While I am 100% in agreement with the notion that newer fans/customers should NOT be expected to have CoP on hand, or even to know that's where to find such info... 

... the info under discussion was a matter of what the (historical, pre-RQG) percentage of Storm-Bull cultists was in the (Lunarized, Chaos-accepting) Sable Tribe of Prax.   🤔

That's hardly the sort of thing that belongs in the RQG core book... or ANY core product, really...  It's not quite "deep lore," but it's distinctly an issue that will need a dive into reference materials!   🧐   And if one needs it, CoP is "available" for anyone to buy (in e-copy) at retail, not at an expensive collector's-copy price.

Yep, that's fair.

[soltakss]

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

While I am 100% in agreement with the notion that newer fans/customers should NOT be expected to have CoP on hand, or even to know that's where to find such info... 

... the info under discussion was a matter of what the (historical, pre-RQG) percentage of Storm-Bull cultists was in the (Lunarized, Chaos-accepting) Sable Tribe of Prax.   🤔

The confusion seems to be that one person was referring to the Cult Compatibility Chart in RQG and the other was referring to the one in Cults of Prax/Terror/Compendium.

Until we have the new material, we can rely on the old material. 

People who say "But, that's old stuff and not relevant to RQG" are just as wrong as those who say "RQG differs from the old material and that's not right".

[Akhôrahil]

[Deleted]

Edited April 21, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

13 hours ago, David Scott said:

The sables never had a great number of Storm Bulls, look at Appendix C, Cults of Prax where they had effectively 0%. 

Isn't that after they left, though?

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, GAZZA said:

My point is that if one cult is hostile to the other, but the other is not hostile to the first, then as far as the current rules are concerned it is unclear whether you can join them both if you do it in the right order.

 

As gm I would say there is no "right order"

your PC, initiate of A, wants to join B.

then your PC has an issue with the "hostile" cult .

A is hostile to B then the pc has an issue with his first cult (a priest may excommunicate the PC, maybe the god will be angry, maybe some rune / passion will be challenged before being initiated. If the rune / passion roll is successful the PC refuses to become initiate of B, ...)

B is hostile to A then the pc is not accepted in the "new cult" without leaving A.

 

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

I don't think that can be regarded as a commonly available resource any more.

Buy it here: https://www.chaosium.com/cults-of-prax-pdf/

and the rest of RQ2: https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-classic-pdfs/

5 hours ago, GAZZA said:

Sables are "Storm Bull Lite" as it does explain how so many adopted the Lunar Way.

They adopted the lunar way as the moon rune has existed amongst the Praxians since before time. Before even the Red Moon.

[davecake]

I also tend to think that Daka Fal (and Ancestor Worship in general even more so) is not that unified in terms of its attitudes. Most of the time, Daka Fal operates more as a connection of family lineages, and each lineage tends to have its own history and attitudes. If your family line had lots of Storm Bull in it and hated Chaos, your ancestors will probably think Storm Bull is fine. Your Sable lineages might not though. 
Unless the cults are closely associated (like trolls who perform ancestor worship as well as Kygor Litor) the ancestors who worship other gods either go to that afterlife and can’t easily be summoned as an ancestor, or they forget their other magic and have no way of renewing (unlike Ancestor Worship magic, which they can regain because the Worship ceremony includes Axis Mundi and the ancestors participate). But they still remember how they felt about other gods, and may be happy about joining a cult they traditionally worshipped. 

In Kralorela and rarely in Fonrit you get some families that are both sorcery users and ancestor worshippers. Which means when they cast Incarnate Ancestor and summon the spirit of old Great Uncle Cho who was a master sorcerer it can be pretty useful. 

[Nick Brooke]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Isn't that after they left, though?

The question is whether, if disgusted Sable-riding Storm Bull cultists abandoned their tribal leadership and went off to do their own thing (which, as rowdy taboo-breakin' rules-ignorin' easy riders would be entirely their prerogative), would you still include them on the table of cults followed by the Sable Tribe? I think you're asking that Appendix to bear a lot of weight if you have a definitive answer either way. (And is the table for ALL Sable Riders, or just the ones you'd likely meet in Prax? Refer back to that earlier discussion we had -- at any given time, most Praxian Animal Nomads aren't actually in Prax, many clans only visit once in a lifetime, and why would the cult affiliations of Sables in the Wastes be affected in any way by recent events in Prax?)

My guess - there's a lot of Sable Rider Storm Bull worshippers in the White Bull Society, making up for the relative lack of Sable Rider Storm Bull worshippers on that antique random cult chart. You can't pass the Buck.

Edited April 21, 2020 by Nick Brooke
clarity

[Joerg]

Having just re-visited Biturian's expedition to the Block, at that time there were at least three Sable-riding Storm Bull followers at the Block. Whether they still had tribal ties is a different question. How much are the Storm Bull initiates among the Beast Riders clan (and tribe) warriors, and how much are they first and foremost members of Storm Bull warbands?

Do Waha Khans have retinues of sworn warriors similar to the Orlanthi clan chiefs and kings?

 

When it comes to the relationship with the Storm Bull, I wonder how much resentment there is on the side of the Lunars against the Bull warriors. The entire Rinliddi and then Dara Happan rebellion was against the Carmanian Bull Shahs.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Storm Bull

is an inter-tribal cult, it is the focus of inter-tribal cooperation between Sartarites and Praxians too. Storm Bull cultists follow a charismatic Storm Khan, regardless of tribal affiliation.

 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

Having just re-visited Biturian's expedition to the Block, at that time there were at least three Sable-riding Storm Bull followers at the Block. Whether they still had tribal ties is a different question. How much are the Storm Bull initiates among the Beast Riders clan (and tribe) warriors, and how much are they first and foremost members of Storm Bull warbands?

The Sable Storm Bull riders had to go somewhere after they rejected the tribes. The Block makes as much sense as anything!

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Storm Bull is an inter-tribal cult, it is the focus of inter-tribal cooperation between Sartarites and Praxians too. Storm Bull cultists follow a charismatic Storm Khan, regardless of tribal affiliation.

There are tribal Yelmalians in Sartar, and there is Sun Dome County.

Do all Beast Rider followers of the Storm Bull follow a storm khan full time, or are there some who instead aid a khan or a clan chief inside their tribe? Or is it up to a Storm Khan to pledge allegiance to a tribal leader?

Or does this mean that there are hardly any Storm Bull worshipers present in your average beast rider clan, that all of those who heard the Calling of the Bull are off to the closest (or most sacred) chaos-battling ground, leaving their clan without any cultic expertise in fighing Chaos?

How permanent is "gang membership"? (Always assuming the charismatic Storm Khan stays alive. If he dies, I suppose all oaths are fulfilled, or else the followers whose oaths aren't are about to go on a suicidal avenging mission.)

Can a more charismatic Storm Khan win over members of a different gang? Does tribal origin play any role in choosing a Storm Khan?

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, David Scott said:

is an inter-tribal cult, it is the focus of inter-tribal cooperation between Sartarites and Praxians too. Storm Bull cultists follow a charismatic Storm Khan, regardless of tribal affiliation.

 

From my perspective, a storm buller (can we still use uroxi ?) is dedicated to his sacred mission (against chaos, so inter tribal, you're right) but has not severed his family / clan / tribe. It's not humakt

he has then two loyalties. I am pretty sure that bison storm bullers will follow bison storm khan when rhino storm bullers will follow rhino storm khan in most cases.

Of course if a big threat is identified the first storm khan (or the more charismatic) will be followed, regardless of the rest, for the time to manage the threat. Then some may follow him as a new loyalty but a lot may go back to their clan.

Their are enough storm bullers in tribes to stay in the bloodlines (and storm bull love blood, doesn't it ? )

[g33k]

On 4/20/2020 at 3:39 AM, GAZZA said:

Could an initiate of Storm Bull join, say, Yanafil Tarnils or another Seven Mothers cult? My immediate reaction would be, "keep those Chaos loving scum away from me" but Storm Bull is a popular god in Prax, and the Sable Riders presumably had plenty of Bulls amongst them when they decided to support the Lunars. (Or did all of their Bull initiates fight on the other side?)

Not all Lunar cults embrace Chaos, after all.

But I think all Lunars are more-or-less required to be accepting of Chaos... so long as it behaves in a civilized manner and follows the Lunar Way.

Uroxi are more-or-less required to never accept Chaos, no matter how it behaves.

I don't see these coexisting (outside of illumination).

[David Scott]

These two questions are covered in the full cult write up, which is not so different form the Cults of Prax and HeroQuest versions - I'd suggest re-reading them.

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

Do all Beast Rider followers of the Storm Bull follow a storm khan full time, or are there some who instead aid a khan or a clan chief inside their tribe? Or is it up to a Storm Khan to pledge allegiance to a tribal leader?

....

47 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I am pretty sure that bison storm bullers will follow bison storm khan when rhino storm bullers will follow rhino storm khan in most cases.

 

Storm Bull and Chaos -

Quote

The cult is refreshingly open in its racial requirements. The only races it does not allow are broos, ogres, giants, and other things tainted by Chaos.

So members of the Lunar Empire could join. There's a big difference between ideological acceptance of Chaos and actual Chaos.

Quote

Socially they are unacceptable. They characteristically act with total disregard for any tribal taboos or manners, even to the extent of occasional murders which will go unavenged. Normal people consider all worshipers of this cult to be mindless brutes, barely human, certainly deranged, and absolutely dangerous. These opinions are correct.

Quote

Throughout Prax there are usually between five and eight High Khans of the cult wandering across the plains. Those known to have continued existence were the High Khan of the Storm-Impalas (which attracted those worshipers from the pigmy tribe of the plains), the High Khan of the Pavis Temple, the High Khan of the Bullocks, the High Priest of Karkarjan’s Sword, and the High Khan of the Paps. Other High Khans are mentioned without being named.

Quote

Initiates of the cult can leave their priests, but they must return immediately upon being called and must also be present for one half of the year, as demanded by the priest.

Quote

Praxian Storm Khans also are gifted once per year by the Khan of the tribe which they originally left.

 

[metcalph]

6 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Throughout Prax there are usually between five and eight High Khans of the cult wandering across the plains. Those known to have continued existence were the High Khan of the Storm-Impalas (which attracted those worshipers from the pigmy tribe of the plains), the High Khan of the Pavis Temple, the High Khan of the Bullocks, the High Priest of Karkarjan’s Sword, and the High Khan of the Paps. Other High Khans are mentioned without being named.

Which implies that the High Khan of the Block does *not* have continued existence.  

[Nick Brooke]

9 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Which implies that the High Khan of the Block does *not* have continued existence.  

Or that he or she isn't "wandering across the plains," Peter.

[metcalph]

3 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Or that he or she isn't "wandering across the plains," Peter.

Whereas the High Khans of the Pavis Temple and the Paps do?

Personally I don't have a problem with whatever's decided.  If it's a simple omission, that's fine.  If the High Khan at the Block actually wields Karjaktan's Sword and that he took over after the original line of High Khans of the Block was destroyed in the Gbaji Wars, that's fine too..  Or that greedy invaders in ages past (Dorastrans, Pure Horse Tribe, Zistorites, EWF, Lunar Empire, Holy Country etc) have taking to seizing control of the block and looting it for chunks of Truestone. 

[David Scott]

37 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Which implies that the High Khan of the Block does *not* have continued existence.

28 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Or that he or she isn't "wandering across the plains," Peter.

I suspect that the Block doesn't have a continuous High Khan is due to a couple of reasons:

• The fatality rate, just because it's a holy place doesn't mean it's safe. The perimeter of the marsh alone is vast.
• Proximity to the Paps. The Paps is close (50 miles and visible) and the edge of the Devils Marsh danger zone actually overlaps in it ("Only Some Guards Needed."- so not explicitly chaos attacks). The High Khan of the Paps could fulfil both roles.

50 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Or that greedy invaders in ages past (...) have taking to seizing control of the block and looting it for chunks of Truestone.

I don't think that anyone actually takes control of the Block. I think they arrive, think wow this easy, then it's all over. I imagine the Block as being surrounded by piles of skeletons (humans, horses, herd beasts, weird stuff, smashed broo skulls), along with hundreds of Storm Bull burials. Left as warning to others... who just wonder what happened here. (I'm not saying no truestone is stolen, but it's not a lot). 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

But I think all Lunars are more-or-less required to be accepting of Chaos

Lunar citizens are required to tell the authorities that they are accepting of "Lunar certified as o.k." chaos.  Whether they actually accept it deep in their hearts???

How many Christians do you think really believe everything in the Nicean Creed?

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

...

How many Christians do you think really believe everything in the Nicean Creed?

<hastily looks about for a 10' pole to  not touch that  with>