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Trolls don't cry


sufiazafran

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Good morning, people:

I Am thinking about a scene to play in Riverjoin where a group of human PC and a troll NPC find another troll who is sad. The trolls start talking in darktongue, after a few words the sad troll starts weeping, they hug and pat their backs, and then each one goes on their way. If the PC ask their troll companion about the matter, he says "he cryes because Gbaji's curse hit him many times now, two females already rejected him, and he fears that if he doesn't give healthy child to a female he won't be acceptd by any other female ever again."

The problem is that I don't know if this makes sense at all so my questions here would be:

¿Do trolls cry? If so, ¿are they allowed to cry, even in private?, ¿when do they cry?, ¿what do they cry about?, ¿do males and females cry about the same things?, ¿do priestessess of Xyola Umbar have a different understanding of crying and the releasing of pain? ¿How do trolls tend to react when another troll cries? ¿Do they cry when someone dies, or their cannibalistic funeral rites give them enough closure?   

After this, I thought about the elder races. I think some have an idea of love too alien for humans to understand, if any (like altinae, dragonut, golden wheels, grotaron or luatha [I don't know if true malkioni and Vadeli would be in this group]),  but others (like baboons, ducks, dwarves, elves or merfolk) seem more likely to have this kind of reactions. So I have more or less the same questions about other elder races, the basic or crucial question being ¿how do they cope with pain/sadness?

I would love to read your oppinions on this matter. Thank you very much in advance.

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Hi sufiazafran,

YGWV, so it is really how you want to play it. 

However, in Trollpak, Classic Edition  Page 29

Sorrow is expressed as pain: great wailing and crying.
Triumph is shown by hooting and clapping. Disfavor is
shown by making an ululating wail broken by a cluck.
Approval is shown by howling.

Producing children is more of a female concern. They are they matriarchy and their children will help support their position of power. Different for the males who also might not be so sure they are the paternal father of any children. 

Trollkin probably cry a lot, particularly if they're next in line on the menu, singled out for punishment or designated to go over the parapet to be used as cannon fodder. 

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32 minutes ago, jongjom said:

Trollkin probably cry a lot,

Given the strong expressions noted for trolls (great waling, hooting, etc), it may be a sign of the weakness of trollkin that their expressions are all quietly muted:  whimpers, trembling, chattering, etc.

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The following are all just my own takes and interpretations, based on reading the Trollpak and Unspoken Word #04: Uz and playing a dark troll, but here goes:

2 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

¿Do trolls cry?

On a purely physical level, dark troll eyes are more or less the same ocular organ humans and other sighted beings have.  given irritants, i assume they'd water and redden the same as human eyes, that's how i've played it anyway.  as others have noted they tend to express grief as pain, through wailing and probably tears

2 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

¿are they allowed to cry, even in private?

Among their own kind trolls are very sensitive to sound.  They keep spoken words and ambient noise in general to a bare minimum--their uncontrolled squealing and wailing is one of the ways trollkin are especially annoying to other trolls.  Given troll society's emphasis on the primacy of strength, persistent emotional breakdowns, or inability to govern emotion in public could be seen as a psychological weakness worthy of exploitation by rival trolls.  The acceptable troll expressions, wailing or hooting etc., are all pretty bombastic--but there's a time and place for everything, and not being able to keep that discipline could have social consequences.  The mistress race is deeply unlike the dark trolls, psychologically--most mistress race trolls would be high-functioning sociopaths in human terms, able to shunt emotion aside completely when calculating need and expedience.  Emotional breakdowns would be deeply unlike the behavior of mistress race trolls, and so would probably be looked down upon in society in proportion to the mistress race's influence.  Very strong in Dagori Inkarth, less so in the Shadow Plateau or Guhan, for instance.

The rules are different out on the surface.  The mistress race almost never comes there, it's the place where troll life is most thoroughly dominated by the dark troll gods: Xiola Umbar, Zorak Zoran, Argan Argar.  XU and AA both embody positive emotions the mistress race has in short supply: mercy, friendship, a willingness to try to understand and get along.  Zorak Zoran is all negative emotion, but clearly and thoroughly expressed: bellowing rage, shrieking fear.  Dark trolls out and about would be under much less social pressure to show no emotion--I'd expect dark troll bands out on the surface to be about as publicly emotional as a group of humans, allowing for cultural quirks and good or bad feeling between the trolls in question, as much from that lack of pressure as from the sorts of personalities who take to extended time beyond the caves in the first place.

3 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

¿when do they cry?

In public, when it'd be socially acceptable.  There are supposed to be great festivals of mourning and celebration around the Tarpit up on the Shadow Plateau, where Belintar killed the Only Old One for good.  I'd expect there's great parades of spectacular mourning as part of those rites, especially with Belintar gone now.  Outside of publicly acceptable times I'd expect trolls to keep those outbursts as private as possible, as they try to keep most things.  It might be acceptable to show that emotion in front of children or trusted mates, or before friendly companions out on the surface.

3 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

¿what do they cry about?

Dark trolls have the same emotional range as humans as far as I know--they cry out of fear, joy, pain and the rest.  Their method of expression will be trollish, but the emotions driving it will be largely the same.

3 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

¿do priestessess of Xyola Umbar have a different understanding of crying and the releasing of pain?

Emphatically yes.  XU's compassionate and merciful qualities should always be contrasted with Kyger Litor's Hellmother approach.  A XU initiate should strive to extend that compassion wherever her comfort is needed, particularly to those suffering emotional breakdowns.  Since overpowering emotion could be seen as a taint or curse of the Sun, counseling trolls through those storms could be an important part of a XU initiate's work.

Finally,

3 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

golden wheels

At least one Gold Wheel Dancer had children with a human man in the early First Age, so their versions of love and sexuality can't be that far removed from those of humans, or dark trolls for that matter.  Don't know that anybody ever married a dragonewt though, I'll grant you.

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36 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Don't know that anybody ever married a dragonewt though, I'll grant you.

You'd need three more marriage partners, if Sandy's old theory that a successful dragonewt procreation needs participants from all five stages. The scout's role might well be being eaten (no big deal for a 'newt). The rest except the dragonet, possibly too.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

Among their own kind trolls are very sensitive to sound.  They keep spoken words and ambient noise in general to a bare minimum--their uncontrolled squealing and wailing is one of the ways trollkin are especially annoying to other trolls.

Funny that your Glorantha does it completely the other way around from what @jongjom and @jajagappa suggest (loud wailing trolls, whimpering trollkin).  Both  make sense to me.

Edited by lordabdul
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Ludovic aka Lordabdul -- read and listen to  The God Learners , the Gloranthan podcast, newsletter, & blog !

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I'm definitely more in the "trolls are loud" camp. That said, a lot of the noise trolls make might not be audible (or seem muted) to humans, but that's because trolls can hear things humans can't, and because they feel noise as much as they hear it. Which is probably why their instrument of choice for pretty much all occasions is the drums, and I imagine a troll's singing would sound to humans like a lot of low, reverberating rumbling that occasionally goes so low it doesn't even register to the ears but you still feel the bass.

Which makes the war cries and songs of a rampaging horde of Zorak Zorani very unnerving even beyond the visuals they're attached to, but worshipers of Argan Argar and Xiola Umbar, on the other hand, have this very steady, soothing quality to their songs even if you can't hear them "properly."

(Now I'm starting to think about "Crushing Noise" again, the child of Orlanth by Deloradella/Kyger Litor, who I asked about and one of the main suggestions is that it represents the sound of thunder; would it mean Crushing Noise is in a good mood if the thunder is "rolling" rather than "crashing"? Do the uz appreciate the sounds of a nice thunderstorm just as much as the Orlanthi do?)

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7 minutes ago, Leingod said:

Do the uz appreciate the sounds of a nice thunderstorm just as much as the Orlanthi do?

I would guess that in addition to hearing the thunder with their ears just like humans and seeing the lightning with their poor eyes, each peal of thunder would produce echoes to 'light up' the terrain to darksense, adding a layer to the display to trolls that humans can't even perceive.

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3 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

I would guess that in addition to hearing the thunder with their ears just like humans and seeing the lightning with their poor eyes, each peal of thunder would produce echoes to 'light up' the terrain to darksense, adding a layer to the display to trolls that humans can't even perceive.

Huh. You know, between the way the clouds block out the sun and the rain, a full, proper Storm is in itself a synthesis of several elements. Gives me new perspective on why Orlanth's Storm Tribe has so many "foreign" gods being given a place in it.

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8 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

grotaron

I'm not familiar with this term, could anyone explain it for me?

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

I would guess that in addition to hearing the thunder with their ears just like humans and seeing the lightning with their poor eyes, each peal of thunder would produce echoes to 'light up' the terrain to darksense, adding a layer to the display to trolls that humans can't even perceive.

That's a very cool idea. It reminds me a bit of that cheezy scene in Daredevil where he takes his romantic interest out into the rain. The splashing of the drops on her makes his echolocation able to finally see every little detail in her face. Cheezy, but emotional. 

Similarly, a thunder might give trolls a much more detailed or immersive impression of the landscape around them than they are used to. Awe-inspiring, just like for humans, but for slightly different reasons. 

 

It was mentioned earlier that emotionalness might be seen as an influence of the Sun. I'm not sure about that. Of all the elements, the purely Celestial strike me as the most stoic of them. There are different aspects of that element, of course, Lodril is embedded fire and quite emotional, so there's that. But then we have Earth, which can seen as quietly calculating, but is clearly also one of rambunctuous exuberance for harvest and the good material things and close social bonds. Storm... well enough said there. Orlanthi often make up the neighbors of Trolls, and I've always imagined Orlanthi as being much more open with their emotional expressions than the classic Western "macho" ideal. More like historical vikings than pop-culture vikings, if that makes sense. More hollering and wailing of sadness and holding a great deal of respect for tearful poetry, and less a bunch of muted stonefaced blokes. It might very well be that the Storm-Earth neighbors of the Uz have culturally influenced them in this regard. It's quite possible that they get relatively well along for these and other reasons. Just a personal idea. 

I do like the idea of troll emotional outbursts *appearing* sudden and unpredictable to some degree for humans, but only because they aren't able to read the underlying cues that trolls involuntarily produce before them. Could be infrasound/ultrasound, could be subtle body movements or posture things, etc. Obvious things to a troll or a troll-friend perhaps, but largely invisible to a random passerby.

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1 minute ago, Sir_Godspeed said:
8 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

grotaron

I'm not familiar with this term, could anyone explain it for me?

Maidstone Archer, weird monsters with three arms, head in its chest and huge bows that fire spear-length arrows. they hunt mammoths, or something.

  • ¿Do trolls cry? yes, I would think they do, they are descended from Grandfather Mortal and have the same kind of emotions as humans.
  • If so, ¿are they allowed to cry, even in private? Yes, they are.
  • ¿when do they cry? When they are sad. The example you gave is a good one, although the male would be sad that his wife only bears trollkin, so he is sad for her not for himself.
  • ¿what do they cry about? Trollkin births is a good one. Trolls dying meaningless deaths. The Curse of Kin in general. Also, anything that makes them sad.
  • ¿do males and females cry about the same things? Possibly, possibly not. The Curse of Kin affects all trolls and they are sad about that. some trolls might cry in ritual situations, so males and females might cry at different things. Males might be angry rather than crying, but so might females.
  • ¿do priestessess of Xyola Umbar have a different understanding of crying and the releasing of pain? probably, they might make their patients cry to release pain. I can see them performing Chinese Burns therapeutically. 
  • ¿How do trolls tend to react when another troll cries? Some empathise, some join in, some think they are being babies and some ignore them. Zorak Zorani might think they are being babies, but there again, Zorak Zoran has a Cry baby aspect to many of his myths.
  • ¿Do they cry when someone dies, or their cannibalistic funeral rites give them enough closure? I think their rites involve weeping and wailing, gnashing of teeth and stomping on the floor.

 

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Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. 

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Thank you all, really really useful, I'm going to play that scene on the next session inshallah.

3 hours ago, Leingod said:

and I imagine a troll's singing would sound to humans like a lot of low, reverberating rumbling that occasionally goes so low it doesn't even register to the ears but you still feel the bass.

Yeah, I imagined it like a really really deep throat singing, something like this: 

 

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And what about ducks? Do they start sqacking in a specific tone maybe? I don't know why, but I imagine them really proud and really noisy when they are angry or sad.

And dwarves? What happens when they see they're a cog in a system? Do they have something like existential crisis? I imagine decagonists don't really know if they have emotions or don't, since they are born into the system and are assigned a duty since they are born? molded? But it must be hard for individualists when they are starting to find themselves, right? And if they can feel emotion, I guess it must be pretty intense for a dwarf to feel something for the first time. I imagine a dwarf processing the act of crying (and other emotional reactions) like, some kind of runic system in motion, or maybe like energy that puts matter in motion? I don't know, just putting words together here. 

With  aldryami I'm really lost, I don't know if they feel like ents or maybe they see emotions and relations as something that grows like a plant? I don't know

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8 hours ago, sufiazafran said:

Thank you all, really really useful, I'm going to play that scene on the next session inshallah.

Yeah, I imagined it like a really really deep throat singing, something like this: 

 

With an added layer of the virtuoso use of echo and space.

Frex

Not the pitch but the reverb. So your throat singer boucing the sound off rocks etc.

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On 5/9/2020 at 10:01 PM, sufiazafran said:

Good morning, people:

I Am thinking about a scene to play in Riverjoin where a group of human PC and a troll NPC find another troll who is sad. The trolls start talking in darktongue, after a few words the sad troll starts weeping, they hug and pat their backs, and then each one goes on their way. If the PC ask their troll companion about the matter, he says "he cryes because Gbaji's curse hit him many times now, two females already rejected him, and he fears that if he doesn't give healthy child to a female he won't be acceptd by any other female ever again."

The problem is that I don't know if this makes sense at all so my questions here would be:

¿Do trolls cry? If so, ¿are they allowed to cry, even in private?, ¿when do they cry?, ¿what do they cry about?, ¿do males and females cry about the same things?, ¿do priestessess of Xyola Umbar have a different understanding of crying and the releasing of pain? ¿How do trolls tend to react when another troll cries? ¿Do they cry when someone dies, or their cannibalistic funeral rites give them enough closure?   

After this, I thought about the elder races. I think some have an idea of love too alien for humans to understand, if any (like altinae, dragonut, golden wheels, grotaron or luatha [I don't know if true malkioni and Vadeli would be in this group]),  but others (like baboons, ducks, dwarves, elves or merfolk) seem more likely to have this kind of reactions. So I have more or less the same questions about other elder races, the basic or crucial question being ¿how do they cope with pain/sadness?

I would love to read your opinions on this matter. Thank you very much in advance.

I am pretty sure that Yelm makes a troll's eyes water.  Trolls share a man rune, and all the emotions that the man rune gets imo.  They are alien enough in other ways.

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