Hospitality in a Sartar city/village/hamlet

[Bill the barbarian]

12 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is exactly correct. Compare the section @Bill the barbarian quoted earlier, which is a lot more the way I like it than these hotels-with-bar-and-restaurant that we keep getting in generic fantasy. I don’t come to Glorantha for generic fantasy tropes.

Magic of that kind must really come from you and the players as much as from the authors of your fantasy material. Touch up the boring prose you are given and before you know it the players will be joining you. Granted it should be there to begin with but, that’s what you have these fora for and the excellent denizens herein!

[Akhôrahil]

If we’re looking at history, probably our first actual inns are Roman ones, far more modern than anything Sartarite. Achaemenid Persia had something like it, but that was an official royal system for the purposes of administration that private individuals might be able to make use of, not commercial entities (and would fit fine in the Lunar Empire).

I think Tolkien has a lot to answer for - the Shire is lousy with professional pubs that fit the Shire’s 18-19th century aesthetics far better than medieval ones (let alone the Bronze Age) and The Green Dragon doesn’t strike me as commercially viable considering that Bree is a terminus of trade rather than a nexus for it.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, Kloster said:

T1?

Are you referring to the numeric descriptor for TSR's intro module Keep on the Borderlands, I am not sure, it has been decades. Sounds right though.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is exactly correct.

Makes sense! My players haven't travelled very far from their tula yet anyway but when they did, they indeed more often than not stayed at some generous stranger's place (especially while I was binge-watching Vikings ). The hospitality greeting would be done to make sure the guests don't abuse their welcome, but that agreement is only valid for the hosts' stead of course. The other times, my players would mostly make a camp of their own, especially when that's really the only choice because they're in the middle of nowhere.

I have inadvertently found a great trick to limit my players' use of inns: say that there's only a big common room. At most, one or two private rooms (hosting 2 or 3 people each), but roll to determine randomly if they're occupied. Most of the time, they will be. My players really don't like the idea of sleeping with a bunch of other travellers in the common room. I suppose they're afraid they'll get their shit stolen.

I forgot about the clan/tribe houses in tribal and kingdom centres, that's a good idea -- although applicable only in a grand total of a handful of towns and cities. I imagine that when players get higher on the social ladder, they would typically seek hospitality with a clan chieftain or Praxian tribe khan, and get some guest accommodations in the chieftain's residence or the khan's tents.

Edited December 25, 2020 by lordabdul

[Bill the barbarian]

17 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I have inadvertently found a great trick to limit my players' use of inns: say that there's only a big common room. At most, one or two private rooms (hosting 2 or 3 people each), but roll to determine randomly if they're occupied. Most of the time, they will be. My players really don't like the idea of sleeping with a bunch of other travellers in the common room. I suppose they're afraid they'll get their shit stolen.

Most published regular RQ inns have been of this ilk it seems, The rich and fancy of course differ.

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I forgot about the clan/tribe houses in tribal and kingdom centres, that's a good idea -- although applicable only in a grand total of a handful of towns and cities. I imagine that when players get higher on the social ladder, they would typically seek hospitality with a clan chieftain or Praxian tribe khan, and get some guest accommodations in the chieftain's residence or the khan's tents.

Just the confederacies and the capitol as far as I know

Edited December 25, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, lordabdul said:

I have inadvertently found a great trick to limit my players' use of inns: say that there's only a big common room. At most, one or two private rooms (hosting 2 or 3 people each), but roll to determine randomly if they're occupied. Most of the time, they will be. My players really don't like the idea of sleeping with a bunch of other travellers in the common room. I suppose they're afraid they'll get their shit stolen.

It would have to be a really swanky place to have private rooms, I think. Even regular homes are unlikely to have that for the people living there. Privacy expectations are completely different from today.

[Kloster]

7 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Are you referring to the numeric descriptor for TSR's intro module Keep on the Borderlands, I am not sure, it has been decades. Sounds right though.

Yes. And T1 was "The village of Hommlet", first part of "Temple of the Elemental Evil" (T1-4).

[Jeff]

There are inns throughout Sartar - these are caravanserai that cater to travellers, particularly the caravans that ply Sartar's fine roads. These are part of the setting since WBRM. If you have no kin in the city, that's where you go for lodging, food, etc. 

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

Yes. And T1 was "The village of Hommlet", first part of "Temple of the Elemental Evil" (T1-4).

We are quite off topic here so we will have to be careful or the person who created this topic might get mad about the thread derailment... oh wait a minute..

So,  did a bit of searching to see how badly old age was affecting my mind. Well, old age played a role but not in affecting my mind.

Quote

The Village of Hommlet has grown up around a crossroads in a woodland. Once far from any important activity, it became embroiled in the struggle between gods and demons when the Temple of Elemental Evil arose but a few leagues away. Luckily of its inhabitants, the Temple and its evil hordes were destroyed a decade ago, but Hommlet still suffers from incursions of bandits and strange monsters. 

They changed the name and designation decades ago when Hommlet became much bigger than it had started when it was merely B1 and called the Keep on the Borderland

Now that we have lost all the D&D haters with our lack of hospitality....

Edited December 25, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

We are quite off topic here so we will have to be careful or the person who created this topic might get mad about the thread derailment... oh wait a minute..

So,  did a bit of searching to see how badly old age was affecting my mind. Well, old age played a role but not in affecting my mind.

They changed the name and designation decades ago when Hommlet became much bigger than it had started when it was merely B1 and called the Keep on the Borderland

Now that we have lost all the D&D haters with our lack of hospitality....

This is now definitely off-topic. If we want to discuss Hommlet, start a thread elsewhere.

[Rob Darvall]

16 hours ago, Jeff said:

There are inns throughout Sartar - these are caravanserai that cater to travellers, particularly the caravans that ply Sartar's fine roads. These are part of the setting since WBRM. If you have no kin in the city, that's where you go for lodging, food, etc. 

Speculating out loud:
Would this mean this mean that Pavis is, as it is so often, the oddball in that its Geo's is NOT a caravanserai but a dodgy pub in a back alley?

It seems logical that they've been forced out of plusher quarters by the Lunar occupation and can no longer offer stabling and storage. Is there still a connection with their old premises? All Riders (O4) looks like a good candidate.

[Lordabdul]

 

On 12/24/2020 at 6:14 PM, Akhôrahil said:

If we’re looking at history, probably our first actual inns are Roman ones, far more modern than anything Sartarite. Achaemenid Persia had something like it, but that was an official royal system for the purposes of administration that private individuals might be able to make use of, not commercial entities (and would fit fine in the Lunar Empire).

Maybe you're getting tripped up by the use of the word "inn", but the Achaemenid Empire seems to have had inns all along that Royal Road you're mentioning -- it's just that these are more commonly called "caravanserai" or a bunch of other terms. It surely wouldn't be the first time Gloranthan texts use a "loaded" word that the designers later retire because it gives the wrong mental picture, but "caravanserai" also has some problematic connotations anyway, namely its ties to camel caravans specifically. So frankly "inn" is just as good a term as any IMHO.

Caravanserais occasionally had multiple rooms including private rooms, from the little I've read about them, and many of them would end up in the middle of nowhere because they wanted to make sure there was one every day of travel from each other. I believe that this is how Apple Lane was founded (if I correctly remember something Jeff said about it around these parts), which (possibly retroactively much later than 1978) explains why a settlement with an Issaries shop, a brothel, and a generic temple, were setup where nobody lived before. Historically, it wasn't uncommon that a caravanserai would see a village or town grow from it. That's effectively what we're seeing with Apple Lane, and a great gaming opportunity for players to start small and grow in influence.

Edited December 26, 2020 by lordabdul

[Tindalos]

My guess is many inns will likely be built the same as other steads, just larger than most: with the area usually used for storing their own herd animals turned over to care for guests. 

YGWV but in the Coming Storm it talks about how Geo's followers were the remnants of the Sanchali Tribe, turned into a mass hospitality cult. On one level, it's possible they still function similarly to then. Each inn/stead was started by one family from the Sanchali, and still carries its bloodline. But through the power of Geo and Sartar, they are able to survive, thrive, and support others with their hospitality. 

It wouldn't surprise me if Geo's inns only accept Sartarite guilders due to magical oaths, enhancing the coin's power. 

[Akhôrahil]

51 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

My guess is many inns will likely be built the same as other steads, just larger than most: with the area usually used for storing their own herd animals turned over to care for guests. 

My guess is that many of the rural ones are steads - it starts with one place being well placed for hospitality, then becomes known for accepting visitors, then starting to commercialize it, maybe separating the visitors’ area from the family’s, and so on. That way, you could find ”inns” in various stages of development.

Compare to a pub - originally, it was just a ”public house”, someone’s home where a room or a few were opened up to the public and drinks (commonly the home-made beer) was served, maybe along with food.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

My guess is that many of the rural ones are steads - it starts with one place being well placed for hospitality, then becomes known for accepting visitors, then starting to commercialize it, maybe separating the visitors’ area from the family’s, and so on. That way, you could find ”inns” in various stages of development.

Compare to a pub - originally, it was just a ”public house”, someone’s home where a room or a few were opened up to the public and drinks (commonly the home-made beer) was served, maybe along with food.

Most of Sartar's inns were never steads. They were purpose-built by the Prince, by temples, by tribes, or by other entities or individuals to cater to the burgeoning caravan trade, merchants and other travellers. Geo's is a cult which was given specific rights by Sartar and the tribes. Some inns are associated with temples, others are supported by the local tribal council, and I even know of one or two that were founded by adventurous individuals. Most are in the cities, but there are at least a score outside of the cities.

[soltakss]

On 12/24/2020 at 11:20 PM, Eff said:

I believe the objection @Akhôrahil is making here is that these inns are the sort of motel-and-dive-bar inns in fantasy fiction tend to be, and that this feels inappropriate for a Gloranthan and specifically Sartar context compared to provision of hospitality by clans at individual steads or within the tula precincts. And that given that said provision of hospitality hasn't appeared in official RQG products yet, then the sense they have is that things have shifted back towards a Motel G in every corner. 

Maybe the Caravanserai from the Middle East would be a better model. They normally had a kitchen and an eating place with a common area for communal sleeping with private rooms for the wealthy, along with a well and stables for animals. They usually had a guardhouse for protection as well. People could eat and drink there for a few nights at no charge. 

[Jeff]

24 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Maybe the Caravanserai from the Middle East would be a better model. They normally had a kitchen and an eating place with a common area for communal sleeping with private rooms for the wealthy, along with a well and stables for animals. They usually had a guardhouse for protection as well. People could eat and drink there for a few nights at no charge. 

Correct. As an aside, caravanserai and inns were well known to the ancient Greeks and Romans. I strongly recommend Lionel Casson's "Travel in the Ancient World" for background. Inns may be a "medieval trope" in your mind, but they were a trope that long predates the medieval period. For example, the Tres Tabernaem,an inn along the Appian Way, is mentioned in Acts as where St. Paul met with a band of Roman Christians along the way to Rome. Or the inn at Bovillae where Cicero's rival Clodius was murdered.

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

For example, the Tres Tabernaem,an inn along the Appian Way, is mentioned in Acts as where St. Paul met with a band of Roman Christians along the way to Rome.

Except that the Tres Tabernaem refers to three shops - a blacksmiths, a general store and a place of refreshment, not an inn in any form we would recognise.

For Roman hostelries may I recommend Steven J R Ellis' "The Roman Retail Revolution, The Socio-Economic World of the Taberna".  Not cheap, but then I didn't have to pay for it!  (Christmas present from Tindalos and his sister😁)   

[Akhôrahil]

30 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Except that the Tres Tabernaem refers to three shops - a blacksmiths, a general store and a place of refreshment, not an inn in any form we would recognise.

For Roman hostelries may I recommend Steven J R Ellis' "The Roman Retail Revolution, The Socio-Economic World of the Taberna".  Not cheap, but then I didn't have to pay for it!  (Christmas present from Tindalos and his sister😁)   

If I understand things correctly, the roman Hospitia system did evolve out of commercialized hospitality, and they were often partially converted private homes?

[Ali the Helering]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

If I understand things correctly, the roman Hospitia system did evolve out of commercialized hospitality, and they were often partially converted private homes?

Absolutely.  The Tres Tabernaem itself was a development from the mansio accompanying the last post station before Roma, at a junction place.  As has been said, they are a precursor to motorway service stations.

[Runeblogger]

3 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

they are a precursor to motorway service stations.

Similar to Apple Lane? 😛

[Ali the Helering]

Just now, Runeblogger said:

Similar to Apple Lane? 😛

Pfft 🍎

[Jeff]

20 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Absolutely.  The Tres Tabernaem itself was a development from the mansio accompanying the last post station before Roma, at a junction place.  As has been said, they are a precursor to motorway service stations.

Except you also spent the night there. And "inn" is a perfectly good translation - "tabernae" were places required by law to provide hospitality.

Sartar has plenty of these places - and they were not a gradual evolution, they were introduced by King Sartar as part of his road system. They caught on, more were built by his heirs, and by tribes and temples that sought to capitalise on the growing trade.

[Kloster]

17 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Except you also spent the night there. And "inn" is a perfectly good translation - "tabernae" were places required by law to provide hospitality.

In fact, latin "taberna" (plural tabernae) is the precursor word for french "taverne", that translates in english as "inn".

In cities, they were more shops than anything else, but outside, they were used as hotels and inns (and in that case, the plural form has to be used, but I don't remember why).