Yelm, runes and spells and heroquests

[None]

About Yelm in the core rules of Runequest Roleplaying in Glorantha. There's one thing I don't understand.

 

Why is Yelm's runes marked as [Sky/Fire, Fertiity, Death] and why does he only have one Fire/Sky Rune en though Orlanth and Ernalda have two Storm or Earth runes respectively and Yelm is clearly shown to have the [Sun/Sky, Stasis, Mastery] runes in Guide to Glorantha?

What's even wierder is that you don't need the Death or Fertility rune for any of Yelm's spells. They can all be cast with hte Sky/Fire Rune.

 

Also, how come Yelm has significantly fewer rune spells than Orlanth and Ernalda even though they're all supposed to be equally powerful gods? I've counted them and while somone only initiated into one of Orlanth's subcults has only a few more than what Yelm gives someone initiated into both Adventurous and Thunderous has a several more  spells to chose from not to mention the unique spells given to Rune Lords and Rune Priests.

Menwhile Ernalda just straight up gives access to vastly more spells than Yelm does and no, I'm not counting spells given by Associated cults.

You might feel like I'm nitpicking but I find it realluy strange and confusing. On that note I'm also curious as to why Yelm doesn't give access to Sunbright even though Yelm is the Sun.

 

Lastly. How come there are no spells associated with the Stasis Rune in the core book? There are several spells in the book I feel would be appropriateloy associated with the Stasis Rune but all of them are instead associated with the Harmony, Magic or Earth Rune, and in one extremely wierd case with the spell Lock, the Movement Rune.

To all of you who have the PDF of the Red Book of Magic. Do that book contain any spells with the Stasis Rune or is it the Rujne that Shall Not Be Used? I would think that itis a naturall fit for any spells of protection or that allow you to resist damage, repair things, or not be moved, changed or influenced, or to keep a society stable if not harmonious but apparently not.

 

Oh, and yes. I'm still alive. I didn't mean to just disapear for over a year but it will probably happen again. I'm not even sure if I'll be able to answer posts to this thread but I will at least keep an eye on it when I'm able and perhaps I'll be able to chime in once or twice.

 

Edit: actually there's one more thing. Does anyone have or know of a chart for creating Grazer Clans? Or a more detailed history generation for Grazer characters? I feel the one in the book is very focused on SAartar and Prax and Grazer characters just end up sitting there with a lot of 'notyhing happened this year'.

Especially for your parent who have basically only two events, one beeing almost starving or freezing to death in the long winter.

 

Edit Edit: Oh, and one more thing. How come Yelm's High Holy day is Fire Season, Harmony Week, Fire Day, and not Fire Season, Stasis Week, Fire Day, or even Fire Season, Fertility or Death Week, Fire Day?

Edited April 1, 2021 by None

[metcalph]

The Yelm in the rulebook is actually Yu-Kargzant, the Imperial Sun of the Grazers.  Yelm properly refers to the Sun God of Dara Happa (the God with Fire, Fire, Stasis and Mastery) who is different in some way I hesitate to describe because it will probably be wrong.  Both are sun gods in the way that Kargzant (No Yu-), Elmal and Yelmalio are not.  The rulebook even points this out when it says:

Quote

This is the Yelm cult worshiped by the Pure Horse Peoples.
In Dara Happa, the Yelm cult is structured differently and
has many more associated cults.

RQG p307

So while the Grazer Yelm has fewer rune spells than the other great gods, his strength is in access to spirit magics (through Golden Bow).

 

[metcalph]

40 minutes ago, None said:

To all of you who have the PDF of the Red Book of Magic. Do that book contain any spells with the Stasis Rune or is it the Rujne that Shall Not Be Used? I would think that itis a naturall fit for any spells of protection or that allow you to resist damage, repair things, or not be moved, changed or influenced, or to keep a society stable if not harmonious but apparently not.

The Red Book of Magic as Stasis Rune Spells:  Enchant Ice, Mould Rock, Morale, Mountain Leap, Shape Metal, Support and Warrior of Stone.  None of which are apparently associated with Yelm (although there's always Shield).   

I imagine Stasis Rune magic is a rarity because Rune Magic is a change which is the antithesis of Stasis.  For example, the Dwarves who are strong in Stasis now about three spells and have to cough up a POW point every time they cast one.

How Yelm (the Dara Happan one) wields Stasis magic (as opposed to how Stasis is important to Yelm) is a good question which I do not have the answer.  Lhankor Mhy is in a similar position FWIW.

[Richard S.]

Dara Happan Yelm in RQG won't have Stasis. If you have the cult compendium, it'll probably be closest to how he's presented in there. Basically it's the same general structure and magic as the Grazer cult, but without Golden Bow and adding the Imperator subcult, which gives access to certain important spells like Resurrection and Command Griffin, to name a few. He also gets far more associate cults in Dara Happa, which is to say basically the entire solar pantheon plus a good chunk of earth gods and maybe a water or two.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Richard S.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, None said:

Why is Yelm's runes marked as [Sky/Fire, Fertiity, Death]

This is as Peter has said, the Grazer god Yu-Kargzant.

1 hour ago, None said:

and why does he only have one Fire/Sky Rune en though Orlanth and Ernalda have two Stoem or Earth runes

In this form he's not the source of the Fire rune. In the GoG write up you will see

1 hour ago, None said:

respectively and Yelm is clearly shown to have the [Sun/Sky, Stasis, Mastery] runes?

Not stasis and Mastery in RQG, yes in older write ups: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/y/yelm/

1 hour ago, None said:

What's even weirder is that you don't need the Death or Fertility rune for any of Yelm's spells. They can all be cast with with Sky/Fire Rune.

That's the nature of Yu-Kargzant. 

1 hour ago, None said:

Also, how come Yelm has significantly fewer rune spells than Orlanth and Ernalda even though they're all supposed to be equally powerful gods? I've counted them and while somone only initiated into one of Orlanth's subcults has only a few more than what Yelm gives someone initiated into both Adventurous and Thunderous has a several more  spells to chose from not to mention the unique spells given to Rune Lords and Rune Priests.

Menwhile Ernalda just straight up gives access to vastly more spells than Yelm does and no, I'm not counting spells given by Associated cults.

You might feel like I'm nitpicking but I find it really strange and confusing.

Yu-Kargzant, see above.

1 hour ago, None said:

On that note I'm also curious as to why Yelm doesn't give access to Sunbright even though Yelm is the Sun.

Yelm receives Sunbright from the subservient cult of Antirius, Antirius is not a subservient cult of Yu-Kargzant.

1 hour ago, None said:

Lastly. How come there are no spells associated with the Stasis Rune in the core book? There are several spells in the book I feel would be appropriateloy associated with the Stasis Rune but all of them are instead associated with the Harmony, Magic or Earth Rune, and in one extremely wierd case with the spell Lock, the Movement Rune.

There is only one cult with the stasis rune, and they focus on truth, knowledge magic and sorcery:

Quote

Lhankor Mhy also is connected to the Stasis Rune, meaning the cult both seeks Truth and holds on to it. GoG

Few cults associated with stasis:

Alkor

Inora 

Krasht 

Mostal 

Polaris

The Ten Workers and Servants of Lodril 

1 hour ago, None said:

To all of you who have the PDF of the Red Book of Magic. Do that book contain any spells with the Stasis Rune or is it the Rujne that Shall Not Be Used? I would think that itis a naturall fit for any spells of protection or that allow you to resist damage, repair things, or not be moved, changed or influenced, or to keep a society stable if not harmonious but apparently not.

Yes.

Enchant Ice

Frost 

Mold Rock

Morale

Mountain Leap

Shape Metal  

Support 

Warrior of Stone 

1 hour ago, None said:

Does anyone have or know of a chart for creating Grazer Clans? Or a more detailed history generation for Grazer characters? I feel the one in the book is very focused on SAartar and Prax and Grazer characters just end up sitting there with a lot of 'notyhing happened this year'.

1 hour ago, None said:

Especially for your parent who have basically only two events, one beeing almost starving or freezing to death in the long winter.

Just chose a result that you want, or ignore the modifiers:

Quote

The gamemaster and player should improvise, modify, discard, or otherwise manipulate the results of the Family History in the interest of creating a more interesting or relevant background for the adventurer. RQG page 29

 

1 hour ago, None said:

How come Yelm's High Holy day is Fire Season, Harmony Week, Fire Day, and not Fire Season, Stasis Week, Fire Day, or even Fire Season, Fertility or Death Week, Fire Day?

Passage of the sun:

Quote

Yelm’s High Holy Day is the day upon which the sun rises to its highest point all year. Using the common system, this occurs on Fireday, Harmony Week, Fire Season.

[None]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

This is as Peter has said, the Grazer god Yu-Kargzant.

Quote

and why does he only have one Fire/Sky Rune en though Orlanth and Ernalda have two Stoem or Earth runes

In this form he's not the source of the Fire rune. In the GoG write up you will see

Quote

respectively and Yelm is clearly shown to have the [Sun/Sky, Stasis, Mastery] runes?

Not stasis and Mastery in RQG, yes in older write ups: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/prosopaedia/deities/y/yelm/

I kind of guessed that was it but that still raises the question how Yelm has two opposing runes whern the book quite directly implies that is tied to Illumination. I have to say that it feels wierd that Yelm doersn't have the Mastery Rune. Is tyhe aspects of Mastery supposed to somewhow be baked into the Sky/Fire Rune?

Also, I should have mentioned but I was referencing the Guide to Glorantha not HeroQuest (unless Guide to Glorantha is consuidered HeroQuest despite beeing system less.)

I'm going to edit that into my original post.

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

Quote

To all of you who have the PDF of the Red Book of Magic. Do that book contain any spells with the Stasis Rune or is it the Rujne that Shall Not Be Used? I would think that itis a naturall fit for any spells of protection or that allow you to resist damage, repair things, or not be moved, changed or influenced, or to keep a society stable if not harmonious but apparently not.

Yes.

Enchant Ice

Frost 

Mold Rock

Morale

Mountain Leap

Shape Metal  

Support 

Warrior of Stone 

 That does make the Stasis Rune less attractive a rune affinity lness you you can always use it to more easily resist magick targeted at you. Actually I'm begining to feel sorry for the poor rune.
It also messes with the immage I've already built from back with Hero Quest. With the Orlanthi as speedy and dodgy warriors who drew in the Movement rune to avoid most attacks and the Yelmites and Solars in general as slower and more solid warriors that draw on the Stasis Rune to withstand or shrug-of most damage.

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

 

Quote

What's even weirder is that you don't need the Death or Fertility rune for any of Yelm's spells. They can all be cast with with Sky/Fire Rune.

That's the nature of Yu-Kargzant. 

Which makes me wonder does not-Yu-Kargzant Yelm have spells that require the use of the either the Death Rune or the Fertility rune, forcing a Yelmite to choose which way to lean?

 

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Quote

Does anyone have or know of a chart for creating Grazer Clans? Or a more detailed history generation for Grazer characters? I feel the one in the book is very focused on SAartar and Prax and Grazer characters just end up sitting there with a lot of 'notyhing happened this year'.

Quote

Especially for your parent who have basically only two events, one beeing almost starving or freezing to death in the long winter.

Just chose a result that you want, or ignore the modifiers:

Quote

The gamemaster and player should improvise, modify, discard, or otherwise manipulate the results of the Family History in the interest of creating a more interesting or relevant background for the adventurer. RQG page 29

 

 

That is pretty much a neccitity but my issue wasn't that there weren't events that you could forcibly pick. It was that these are all Praxian and Sartar events.

Its hard enough for me with how I strain against the entire game system with my refusal to be in any way asociated with anything Sartar or Prax, or anythingh at all Orlanthi. All while it feels as if the game does everything it can to force me into accepting them as the main characters of the entire story. I also not that interested in playing or running a Lunar campaign just yet.

(I'm also not that happy that the Lunars are just overlayed on top of most Solars. The bit that the Dara Happan and Lunnar upper layers are merged changes nothing to me. The Red Emperor is called the Red Emperor for a reason andthe Red Goddes and Lunar themes and ideas are clearely accendant and Yelm is pretty much stuffed into a closet for the most part.

I feels like it wastes one of two groups that are each good and interesting enough to be their own thing by mashing them together and no argument that they are actually the same can change that. At most the Lunars are the Romans to the Dara Happans Greeks.

I also stand by that a three side conflict is more dynamic and has more potential than a two side one.)

 

Ahem, anyway.

On the topic of Golden Bow, do anyone know if the four taboos and gifts of that subcult replace or are on top of the normal shaman initation process? and can you belong to the Golden Bow and any of the other Gracer Yelm subcults? The text implies that you can't but I'm unsure.

 

Edit: Thinking about it now.  Are there any cults that give access to Spear Trance and True Spear, and any cults that give access to True Bow (does it even exist) and Arrow Trance (aside from Aldyra for that last one)?

---
Appologies for typos. Can't double-check as much as I want.

Edited April 1, 2021 by None

[Richard S.]

37 minutes ago, None said:

I kind of guessed that was it but that still raises the question how Yelm has two opposing runes whern the book quite directly implies that is tied to Illumination.

Yelm is tied to illumination somewhat, both due to his authority over both life and death and because Nysalor is often seen as a piece of Yelm. Based on what Jeff's said elsewhere, it looks like it's intended that Illuminates are the only ones who can use Yelm's powers to their fullest.

37 minutes ago, None said:

I have to say that it feels wierd that Yelm doersn't have the Mastery Rune. Is tyhe aspects of Mastery supposed to somewhow be baked into the Sky/Fire Rune?

Mastery in RQG represents "heroism" more than "authority", which is why Orlanth has it while Yelm does not. They're both sovereigns, but that power is accessed through their other runes.

37 minutes ago, None said:

 That does make the Stasis Rune less attractive a rune affinity lness you you can always use it to more easily resist magick targeted at you. Actually I'm begining to feel sorry for the poor rune.
It also messes with the immage I've already built from back with Hero Quest. With the Orlanthi as speedy and dodgy warriors who drew in the Movement rune to avoid most attacks and the Yelmites and Solars in general as slower and more solid warriors that draw on the Stasis Rune to withstand or shrug-of most damage.

The runes are far more than just fancy powers, they have a profound impact on a character's personality and outlook on life. In fact, I'd argue that their influence on character's mental states is more important to consider than what magic you can pull off with them. Even if there aren't flashy rune spells for stasis, if you want to play a solid, stubborn, steadfast character there's plenty of reason to invest in it, since you can use it for augments that are in line with those traits.

37 minutes ago, None said:

Which makes me wonder does not-Yu-Kargzant Yelm have spells that require the use of the either the Death Rune or the Fertility rune, forcing a Yelmite to choose which way to lean?

Choosing which way to lean is a personality thing more than anything. Is your Yelmite life-loving and generous, grim and cold, or with no strong leanings either way?

Edit: choosing life or death probably affects which associate spells you can use too. If you have 90% life, you're probably not gonna get to use whatever Shargash gives to Yelm.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Richard S.

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, None said:

I kind of guessed that was it but that still raises the question how Yelm has two opposing runes whern the book quite directly implies that is tied to Illumination.

Well, that's because Yelm IS Illuminated!  It is part of how Yelm conquered the Underworld and helped lead to his resurrection. 

For reference, this is in GRoY p.32: "Most importantly, Yelm was Illuminated. He experienced the impossible. Yelm experienced being one of the Many while he was nameless and faceless. He had no contact with the One. He at last knew the Other."

41 minutes ago, None said:

Guide to Glorantha not HeroQuest

Guide to Glorantha drew upon HQ at the time of its writing (it came out pre-RQG).

41 minutes ago, None said:

On the topic of Golden Bow, do anyone know if the four taboos and gifts of that subcult replace or are on top of the normal shaman initation process?

I believe they replace it.

Edited April 1, 2021 by jajagappa

[None]

28 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

1 hour ago, None said:

I kind of guessed that was it but that still raises the question how Yelm has two opposing runes whern the book quite directly implies that is tied to Illumination.

Yelm is tied to illumination somewhat, both due to his authority over both life and death and because Nysalor is often seen as a piece of Yelm. Based on what Jeff's said elsewhere, it looks like it's intended that Illuminates are the only ones who can use Yelm's powers to their fullest.

That's ...  actually kind of cool.

Edit: Having thought about it for a bit that actually makes me a little less anoyed at the Lunars being plopped down on top of Dara Happa and most of Peloria, but only a little.

28 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

1 hour ago, None said:

 That does make the Stasis Rune less attractive a rune affinity lness you you can always use it to more easily resist magick targeted at you. Actually I'm begining to feel sorry for the poor rune.
It also messes with the immage I've already built from back with Hero Quest. With the Orlanthi as speedy and dodgy warriors who drew in the Movement rune to avoid most attacks and the Yelmites and Solars in general as slower and more solid warriors that draw on the Stasis Rune to withstand or shrug-of most damage.

The runes are far more than just fancy powers, they have a profound impact on a character's personality and outlook on life. In fact, I'd argue that their influence on character's mental states is more important to consider than what magic you can pull off with them. Even if there aren't flashy rune spells for stasis, if you want to play a solid, stubborn, steadfast character there's plenty of reason to invest in it, since you can use it for augments that are in line with those traits.

1 hour ago, None said:

Which makes me wonder does not-Yu-Kargzant Yelm have spells that require the use of the either the Death Rune or the Fertility rune, forcing a Yelmite to choose which way to lean?

Choosing which way to lean is a personality thing more than anything. Is your Yelmite life-loving and generous, grim and cold, or with no strong leanings either way?

I know that ut that doesn't mean I'm not also going to look at what my choises during character creation gives me. I've been punished far to many times when I've only been thinking roleplaying and ignored what the game system actually gives me and or does not give me.

Having to choose between the Life or Death part of Yelm's power set is also an interesting part of a Yelmites character and an aspect of roleplaying.

 

25 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1 hour ago, None said:

On the topic of Golden Bow, do anyone know if the four taboos and gifts of that subcult replace or are on top of the normal shaman initation process?

I believe they replace it.

Really? Does that mean it's easier to begin as a Golden Bow shaman than as a normal shaman?

 

25 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Well, that's because Yelm IS Illuminated!  It is part of how Yelm conquered the Underworld and helped lead to his resurrection. 

Interesting that Yelms Illumination isn'ty apparent at all in the Lightbringers Hero Quest. Although I guess that's more of a Storm perspective.

Speaking of the Lightbringer Quest. As a quick aside, would It be posible for a Yelmite to hijack the Yelm role in said Quest to massively, ah, mess with any Hero Questing Orlantyhis that are performing it? The potential seems staggering and potentially horrifying.

Edited April 1, 2021 by None

[jajagappa]

45 minutes ago, None said:

I have to say that it feels wierd that Yelm doersn't have the Mastery Rune. Is tyhe aspects of Mastery supposed to somewhow be baked into the Sky/Fire Rune?

Note that many gods that ultimately are the "owners" of a particular Rune, e.g. Fire, have a doubled Rune, not the Mastery Rune. 

47 minutes ago, None said:

how Yelm has two opposing runes

Think about what THE most important myth is in relation to the Sun:  every single day, the Sun dies, and is reborn.  Death and Life.  That is central to Yelm, even more so then his position as the Emperor, in the world of Time.

[Richard S.]

11 minutes ago, None said:

Speaking of the Lightbringer Quest. As a quick aside, would It be posible for a Yelmite to hijack the Yelm role in said Quest to massively, ah, mess with any Hero Questing Orlantyhis that are performing it? The potential seems staggering and potentially horrifying.

Oh sure a Yelmite could definitely be pulled in to the role of Yelm. Them trying to mess with what Orlanth tries to do though is such a horrifyingly chaotic thought I shudder at what the consequences would be. The point of the LBQ is that Orlanth and Yelm resolved their differences and allied to create a world where everyone could live. Either side disrupting that means a violation in the foundation of the Great Compromise, and nobody but the most insane, evil illuminates would want that.

[None]

20 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Oh sure a Yelmite could definitely be pulled in to the role of Yelm. Them trying to mess with what Orlanth tries to do though is such a horrifyingly chaotic thought I shudder at what the consequences would be. The point of the LBQ is that Orlanth and Yelm resolved their differences and allied to create a world where everyone could live. Either side disrupting that means a violation in the foundation of the Great Compromise, and nobody but the most insane, evil illuminates would want that.

But think of the potential! The possibilities! The things that could be achieved with just a little alteration of the myth. 😀

Edit: Besides, isn't the Solar version of the Lightbringer Quest quite diferent from the Orlanthi one? Surely. A Quest as performed by those shabby barbarians can't be that important. 😀

Right? Right?

Edited April 1, 2021 by None

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 minutes ago, None said:

But think of the potential! The possibilities! The things that could be achieved with just a little alteration of the myth. 😀

the bigger potential, the center of all possibilities... is chaos

[None]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

2 hours ago, None said:

I have to say that it feels wierd that Yelm doersn't have the Mastery Rune. Is tyhe aspects of Mastery supposed to somewhow be baked into the Sky/Fire Rune?

Mastery in RQG represents "heroism" more than "authority", which is why Orlanth has it while Yelm does not. They're both sovereigns, but that power is accessed through their other runes.

I've been thinkning on this and it actually makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

[jajagappa]

49 minutes ago, None said:

Besides, isn't the Solar version of the Lightbringer Quest quite diferent from the Orlanthi one?

Of course.  As it says in GS p.98: "Second, Yelm conquered the Rebels. While doing nothing except praying, his power extended itself over the Rebels so that they died and surrendered themselves to him." 

You can think of it like a Summons of Evil performed by the Solar leader.  I like to think of it as a "court" where Yelm plays both prosecutor and judge.

I ran something like this in my HQG game when the PC's arrived at the Hall of the Maggot Liege.  He had an Orlanthi captive there.  The PC's had to argue for/against the deeds of the captive. 

But for Yelm to succeed in this Quest of Justice, me would have to prove that he can understand the Many, and provide Divine Justice, in order to reassert himself as the One (among Many) and relight the spark of the Sun.

[None]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Of course.  As it says in GS p.98: "Second, Yelm conquered the Rebels. While doing nothing except praying, his power extended itself over the Rebels so that they died and surrendered themselves to him." 

You can think of it like a Summons of Evil performed by the Solar leader.  I like to think of it as a "court" where Yelm plays both prosecutor and judge.

I ran something like this in my HQG game when the PC's arrived at the Hall of the Maggot Liege.  He had an Orlanthi captive there.  The PC's had to argue for/against the deeds of the captive. 

But for Yelm to succeed in this Quest of Justice, me would have to prove that he can understand the Many, and provide Divine Justice, in order to reassert himself as the One (among Many) and relight the spark of the Sun.

Which makes me ask this.

Could a Yelmic Quester hijack an Orlanthi Lightbringer Quest and turn it into the above Solar version, and what would be the consequenses and implications of doing so?

[jajagappa]

Just now, None said:

Could a Yelmic Quester hijack an Orlanthi Lightbringer Quest and turn it into the above Solar version, and what would be the consequenses and implications of doing so?

Yes, of course.

A key part of the equation though is that Yelm needs the help of Orlanth to return FROM the Underworld, and to pass the Gates of Dawn.  So he doesn't want to kill Orlanth.

Yelm wants Orlanth's atonement.  Yelm wants Orlanth's recognition of his status as Emperor.  (While Orlanth wants Yelm to recognize him as King of the Gods.)

The optimal Yelm result is that Orlanth accepts Yelm has Emperor and bows before him, accepting Yelm's sovereignty.  The Sun then rules the world and the clouds and winds and rains are subservient to Yelm's needs.  And that's largely what is achieved in DH (or you could argue in the Grazelands). 

But it Orlanth does that universally, or in different regions, then Yelm asserts his rule there too.  So Yelm might rule Dragon Pass, or Maniria, or Umathela, or wherever had been an Orlanthi stronghold.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, None said:

Interesting that Yelms Illumination isn'ty apparent at all in the Lightbringers Hero Quest. Although I guess that's more of a Storm perspective.

Yelm's illumination has no real part in the Lightbringers Quest. IMO Most people vastly over emphasise what illumination actually is, and focus on its game mechanics as a power gaming resource..  

1 hour ago, None said:

Speaking of the Lightbringer Quest. As a quick aside, would It be posible for a Yelmite to hijack the Yelm role in said Quest to massively, ah, mess with any Hero Questing Orlantyhis that are performing it? The potential seems staggering and potentially horrifying.

It depends where it's done. If Yelm avoids Orlanth, then the dawn doesn't come at the end of sacred time. Loads of upset trolls then react what happened last time this happened. If they ask for more atonement than needed, and orlanth fails, then the same happens. If you've played Gods War:

Quote

Your most important early concern is getting Sun God out of Hell . Fortunately, you have no fewer than three different bribes to offer the other players – two Heroquest requirements which directly benefit them, plus a Rune reward if they free you . If your chosen ally betrays you, use Noblesse Oblige to replay those requirements . You can use Call to Justice to coerce obedience.

You might also find this helpful to read: 

• Greg Sez: Humakt Illuminated? (Apr 1998)

[None]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, of course.

A key part of the equation though is that Yelm needs the help of Orlanth to return FROM the Underworld, and to pass the Gates of Dawn.  So he doesn't want to kill Orlanth.

Yelm wants Orlanth's atonement.  Yelm wants Orlanth's recognition of his status as Emperor.  (While Orlanth wants Yelm to recognize him as King of the Gods.)

The optimal Yelm result is that Orlanth accepts Yelm has Emperor and bows before him, accepting Yelm's sovereignty.  The Sun then rules the world and the clouds and winds and rains are subservient to Yelm's needs.  And that's largely what is achieved in DH (or you could argue in the Grazelands). 

But it Orlanth does that universally, or in different regions, then Yelm asserts his rule there too.  So Yelm might rule Dragon Pass, or Maniria, or Umathela, or wherever had been an Orlanthi stronghold.

So lets say an Yelmic quester managed to do the above to a Prince of Sartar or, better yet, a King of Dragon Pass who is performing the full Lightbringer Quest during Sacred Time in Sartar, Boldholm, and manages to somehow achieve optimal results from a solar perspective. (Yes, I know of the Whitre Bull Campaign)

I'm assuming that would shake all of Sartar to its foundaitions?

 

Sounds like a glorious coup for Solar players, and the basis for an entire campaign for Orlanthi players. Not to mention that it should, correct me if I'm wrong, greatly affect more than just Sartar too, right?

 

Also, could you elaborate on this bit: that's largely what is achieved in DH (or you could argue in the Grazelands)?

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, None said:

So lets say an Yelmic quester managed to do the above to a Prince of Sartar or, better yet, a King of Dragon Pass who is performing the full Lightbringer Quest during Sacred Time in Sartar, Boldholm, and manages to somehow achieve optimal results from a solar perspective. (Yes, I know of the Whitre Bull Campaign)

I'm assuming that would shake all of Sartar to its foundaitions?

Yes, it would realign the Gods world around Sartar significantly.  This was the intent of the extension of the Glowline at the New Lunar Temple in Sartar.

It's also not an easy thing to accomplish.  The cosmos wants to align to the Great Compromise.  Orlanth's home is in Sartar/Heortland.

The quester needs to be:  a worshipper of Yelm; have been granted legitimacy by the ruling Emperor (e.g. the Red Emperor); needs to have the right relics of power (mirroring the 10 tests of the Emperor); and then needs to be in position where he can summon the Rebels to Justice.

The Solar leader is going to need to be as powerful as the Prince of Sartar (or King of Dragon Pass) to have any hope of altering the quest results.  But, if they succeed, they should gain the complete Loyalty of the defeated Orlanthi leader.  (Excepting of course that the defeated leader is the ultimate Rebel and will rebel again in all likelihood as that is also part of the Great Compromise.)

22 minutes ago, None said:

Sounds like a glorious coup for Solar players, and the basis for an entire campaign for Orlanthi players. Not to mention that it should, correct me if I'm wrong, greatly affect more than just Sartar too, right?

It would be a great coup and certainly could be an entire campaign for either side.  Most likely limited to Sartar, or maybe Heortland.  You'd have to defeat other Orlanthi leaders in other locales (e.g. the heroic Ralios Orlanthi).  But it would be a start.

24 minutes ago, None said:

that's largely what is achieved in DH (or you could argue in the Grazelands)?

By this I meant:  in DH, the Emperor rules.  It's currently the Red Emperor but he passed all 10 Tests and so must be acknowledged as Emperor by all in DH including the Yelm cult.  Orlanth has no place in DH society.  Instead, Entekos the Calm Air is the primary goddess of the air.  But Orlanth does exist on the outskirts - in the Lunar provinces, in the hills and mountains, etc.

In the Grazelands, nominally the Luminous Stallion King is the leader/ruler of the Grazelanders, and he is a descendant/worshipper of Yelm.  Orlanth worship is minimal in the Grazelands.  However, the Feathered Horse Queen is also the Queen of Dragon Pass and holds the sovereignty of all that land.  She is equally a leader of the Grazelanders, and she dispenses the power of Kingship in Dragon Pass. 

So, achieving rule in Dragon Pass requires more than just defeating Orlanth.  They also have to win the hand of the Feathered Horse Queen (not impossible - King Moirades of Tarsh succeeded in the task).

[None]

44 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, it would realign the Gods world around Sartar significantly.  This was the intent of the extension of the Glowline at the New Lunar Temple in Sartar.

It's also not an easy thing to accomplish.  The cosmos wants to align to the Great Compromise.  Orlanth's home is in Sartar/Heortland.

The quester needs to be:  a worshipper of Yelm; have been granted legitimacy by the ruling Emperor (e.g. the Red Emperor); needs to have the right relics of power (mirroring the 10 tests of the Emperor); and then needs to be in position where he can summon the Rebels to Justice.

The Solar leader is going to need to be as powerful as the Prince of Sartar (or King of Dragon Pass) to have any hope of altering the quest results.  But, if they succeed, they should gain the complete Loyalty of the defeated Orlanthi leader.  (Excepting of course that the defeated leader is the ultimate Rebel and will rebel again in all likelihood as that is also part of the Great Compromise.)

Somehow I think this would a change more profound that 'merely' extending the glowline, and a lot harder to achieve.

 

44 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

By this I meant:  in DH, the Emperor rules.  It's currently the Red Emperor but he passed all 10 Tests and so must be acknowledged as Emperor by all in DH including the Yelm cult.  Orlanth has no place in DH society.  Instead, Entekos the Calm Air is the primary goddess of the air.  But Orlanth does exist on the outskirts - in the Lunar provinces, in the hills and mountains, etc.

So an Orlanth worshiper in Dara Happa heartlands would feel out of place? Wierdly out of tune with the surounding air?

 

44 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

In the Grazelands, nominally the Luminous Stallion King is the leader/ruler of the Grazelanders, and he is a descendant/worshipper of Yelm.  Orlanth worship is minimal in the Grazelands.  However, the Feathered Horse Queen is also the Queen of Dragon Pass and holds the sovereignty of all that land.  She is equally a leader of the Grazelanders, and she dispenses the power of Kingship in Dragon Pass. 

So, achieving rule in Dragon Pass requires more than just defeating Orlanth.  They also have to win the hand of the Feathered Horse Queen (not impossible - King Moirades of Tarsh succeeded in the task).

Actually this reminds me of another thing that popped up in my head once. Shouldn't the Luminous Stalion King and the Yelminf Grazelanders be able to supplant and overthrow the Feathered Horse Queen and potentially bring back Dendara?

(I know the core book sort of claims that Dendara and Ernalda, both whom the Grazers call La Ungaiant if I remember correctly, are one and the same but I've allways assumedthat is a Grazer misconception due to their Solar myths beeing muxed with Sartar and Ernaldan religions.)

Really though, how did Dendara disapear? A grazxelander woman awakening to Ernalda and spreading a new strain into her people is one thing but completely exterminating a goddess from a whole poulation? A population to whose socity and presumambly worldview and mentality said goddes was an integral part for many, many gereations? How, just how?

 

Edit:

45 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

1 hour ago, None said:

Sounds like a glorious coup for Solar players, and the basis for an entire campaign for Orlanthi players. Not to mention that it should, correct me if I'm wrong, greatly affect more than just Sartar too, right?

It would be a great coup and certainly could be an entire campaign for either side.  Most likely limited to Sartar, or maybe Heortland.  You'd have to defeat other Orlanthi leaders in other locales (e.g. the heroic Ralios Orlanthi).  But it would be a start.

Actually the more I think about this the more I want to do something with it at some point. Either in a Solar Campaign or an Orlanthi one.

Edited April 1, 2021 by None

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, None said:

So an Orlanth worshiper in Dara Happa heartlands would feel out of place? Wierdly out of tune with the surounding air?

I'd probably play it that way.  The air feels slow, sluggish, stagnant (if you've experienced the hot, humid aid of the US Midwest/Mississippi Valley, that's probably the experience). 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, None said:

Really though, how did Dendara disapear? A grazxelander woman awakening to Ernalda and spreading a new strain into her people is one thing but completely exterminating a goddess from a whole poulation? A population to whose socity and presumambly worldview and mentality said goddes was an integral part for many, many gereations? How, just how?

They live at the foot of Kero Fin, who is the sovereign goddess of Dragon Pass (vs. the Earth Goddess).  However, the path to her is through Ernalda, not Dendara. 

Are Ernalda and Dendara the same?  Are they not?  It's a mystery.  How I tend to look at it is to consider the Earth Rune, and then divide it horizontally and vertically so that it makes 4 small Earth Runes within the larger.  Let's say that if you consider it one way, separated by the vertical line, you get Ernalda and Maran Gor.  But if you consider it the other way, separated by the horizontal line, you get Dendara and Gorgorma.  All are part of the mystery that is Gata the primal Earth.  And they relate/overlap, but are not the same.  But it depends on your viewpoint.  (Note: that's not necessarily correct, but it's a way I think about the two.)

So, Dendara may not be gone, but the FHQ found more parts of her, or came back with a different view/vision of her, and now incarnates Ernalda, and that also gave her access to Kero Fin.  Which means FHQ holds the key to the sacred Kingship of Dragon Pass.

[Nevermet]

Just wanted to say I'm loving this thread; sorry I don't have much to add

[None]

21 hours ago, jajagappa said:

They live at the foot of Kero Fin, who is the sovereign goddess of Dragon Pass (vs. the Earth Goddess).  However, the path to her is through Ernalda, not Dendara. 

Are Ernalda and Dendara the same?  Are they not?  It's a mystery.  How I tend to look at it is to consider the Earth Rune, and then divide it horizontally and vertically so that it makes 4 small Earth Runes within the larger.  Let's say that if you consider it one way, separated by the vertical line, you get Ernalda and Maran Gor.  But if you consider it the other way, separated by the horizontal line, you get Dendara and Gorgorma.  All are part of the mystery that is Gata the primal Earth.  And they relate/overlap, but are not the same.  But it depends on your viewpoint.  (Note: that's not necessarily correct, but it's a way I think about the two.)

So, Dendara may not be gone, but the FHQ found more parts of her, or came back with a different view/vision of her, and now incarnates Ernalda, and that also gave her access to Kero Fin.  Which means FHQ holds the key to the sacred Kingship of Dragon Pass.

I'm not disputing that they found Ernalda or claiming that it was far fetched I'm questioning how it came to be that after omne woman (the Feathered Horse Queen) found Ernalda suddenly all Grazer women abandoned Dendara. You could argue that Feathered Horse Queen actively exterinated the worship of dendara scouring it from the Grazelands but such things rarely succed entirely not to mention it tends to rise a lot of enmity.

That said. I consider Ernalda and Dendara to be beyond a doubt two entirely separate goddesses and Denadar to not even be an Earth Goddess but a Sky Godess albeit with the Light Rune instead of the Sun Rune).

 

---

High level Hero Quest scheemes and shenanigans are fun the only problem is that you need a lot of knowledge to andthen there are the whole thing with wether you're doing the Quest to affect the World or give yourself benefits, or just end up causeing trouble.

Just performing preforming the Solar version of the Lightbringer Quets as Yelm should be enough to possible gain the ability of self-resurection and immagine if you've hijaked the Orlanthi version and foorced Orlanth to submit? One of the first thing I thought of was a Yelmiic Rune Lord or Priest with a Command Orlanth worshiper power.

And what if you went even further back to a bit before Yelm was killed by Orlanth  and began messing arund there?

 

About the Grazers and Ernalda in general though. Are ther any way you know of to mess  with Ernalda the same way you can mess with Orlanth? She sems much harder to get to and then there is that whoe thing about how she (as the earth) is what gives or descides the right of sovereignity.

Something I'm pretty sure Solar muths don't have or even acknowledge. Don't they think all authority comes from and descends from Yelm?

 

Edit: Speaking of Solar Hero Quests.

Isn't Yelmalios Hill of Gold Heroquest one of those that as a lot of potential a Yelmalio Quester could potentially defeat Zoran Zorak and not lose Yelmalio's flame. Then there is the part where Orlanth stole Yelmalios weapons, you could stop that from happening too, or even better steal Orlanths weapons and gouge Zoran Zorak.

By the way. Do you have any idead what would happen if you're initiated into Yelm (as a Grazer) and then also initiates into Yelmalio for some reason? Would you actuly ose your ability to wield fire magic (rine or spirit) due to Yelmalio's restriction on that part?

Edited April 2, 2021 by None