In-cult conflicts

[Puckohue]

I’m not going to do any spoilers, but reading some older Gloranthan publications I came upon a mention of a Rune Priest wanted by the cult (as in accused of a criminal act against the cult). The Rune Priest is listed as having Rune magic, so it seems the relation to the God is still intact.

Could a Rune Priest in trouble with the temple emigrate and continue as Rune Priest in another temple far away? Or at least participate in associated cult ceremonies? Or is there a relegation mechanism that cuts the ties to Rune magic and Rune point recovery?

[David Scott]

9 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

I’m not going to do any spoilers, but reading some older Gloranthan publications I came upon a mention of a Rune Priest wanted by the cult (as in accused of a criminal act against the cult). The Rune Priest is listed as having Rune magic, so it seems the relation to the God is still intact.

Could a Rune Priest in trouble with the temple emigrate and continue as Rune Priest in another temple far away? Or at least participate in associated cult ceremonies? Or is there a relegation mechanism that cuts the ties to Rune magic and Rune point recovery?

If it was a social transgression not religious one, yes. Otherwise read Ban RQG page 319 or RBM 15.

[jajagappa]

2 minutes ago, David Scott said:

If it was a social transgression not religious one, yes. Otherwise read Ban RQG page 319 or RBM 15.

Or if they are Illuminated, and use that to nefarious purposes.

[Akhôrahil]

39 minutes ago, Puckohue said:

I’m not going to do any spoilers, but reading some older Gloranthan publications I came upon a mention of a Rune Priest wanted by the cult (as in accused of a criminal act against the cult). The Rune Priest is listed as having Rune magic, so it seems the relation to the God is still intact.

Could a Rune Priest in trouble with the temple emigrate and continue as Rune Priest in another temple far away? Or at least participate in associated cult ceremonies? Or is there a relegation mechanism that cuts the ties to Rune magic and Rune point recovery?

By RQG rules, a (high/chief) priest can only Ban you from temples under his/her command - anything beyond that, like Initiation status, seems to be the purview of your god. And even gods have historically had to send Spirits of Reprisal with uncertain chances of success to retrieve your rune magic.

Not only could you go to another temple, you could even make do without temples completely through Sanctify. It could potentially be argued that you can't maintain Priest/Rune Lord long-term without a temple, but switching to another temple that will have you, or even starting your own (even a Shrine might do), should be doable.

Using Associated Cults is a really interesting suggestion too - it should avoid the effect of the Ban, as this Associated temple likely isn't in the chain of command of the priest who Banned you. You could still be blocked socially from doing it, though.

25 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Or if they are Illuminated, and use that to nefarious purposes.

Not sure whether Illumination avoids a Ban? I wouldn't guess so, but we don't have the new rules yet.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

By RQG rules, a (high/chief) priest can only Ban you from temples under his/her command - anything beyond that, like Initiation status, seems to be the purview of your god. And even gods have historically had to send Spirits of Reprisal with uncertain chances of success to retrieve your rune magic.

Depending on the structure of the cult it could be very far reaching. The Red Emperor could have you banned from the the entire Solar/Lunar religion for life. The prince of Sartar, for all of Sartar. The FHQ, all of the grazelands, etc. You'd likely have to go a way away, to start again. 

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Depending on the structure of the cult it could be very far reaching. The Red Emperor could have you banned from the the entire Solar/Lunar religion for life. The prince of Sartar, for all of Sartar. The FHQ, all of the grazelands, etc. You'd likely have to go a way away, to start again. 

I wonder whether the Prince of Sartar can Ban you from all Orlanth temples (also, he would have to be really annoyed with you to take the personal effort), or just Rex worship. Would every Orlanth high priest agree that he’s their religious overlord in a temple hierarchy for non-Rex stuff? 

Of course, Rex has some tools to ensure compliance...

[EricW]

I think there is a strong case illumination prevents excommunication, so if someone incurs the displeasure of the local religious leaders yet retains their magic, expect the accusations to fly, at least in private.

As for setting up a new temple in defiance of authorities, that would likely draw a severe reaction. During the first age illuminates plundered gods by setting up false temples, so a suspected illuminate outcast setting up a temple in defiance of religious leaders could be seen an attack on the faith by degenerate chaos worshippers.

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, EricW said:

I think there is a strong case illumination prevents excommunication, so if someone incurs the displeasure of the local religious leaders yet retains their magic, expect the accusations to fly, at least in private.

 

Is Illumination even common enough for that to be a factor people would consider? 

Also, in 3rd Age Dragon Pass, Illumination is almost synonymous with Lunarism (according to Jeff, at least) so accusations of Lunar allegiances seems like a likely byproduct, or even a prior suspicion.

[EricW]

2 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Is Illumination even common enough for that to be a factor people would consider? 

Also, in 3rd Age Dragon Pass, Illumination is almost synonymous with Lunarism (according to Jeff, at least) so accusations of Lunar allegiances seems like a likely byproduct, or even a prior suspicion.

Orlanth is dead suggests Lunar spies are everywhere stirring up trouble and mistrust. Some of the dirtshines, high ranking child hostages returned by the Lunars after years of indoctrination, would be illuminates.

I think illumination would still be recognised as a factor, everyone knows the story of Lokamaydon. But yes, the accusation would likely be the offender is a Lunar spy.

[Kloster]

48 minutes ago, EricW said:

But yes, the accusation would likely be the offender is a Lunar spy.

Which, for an active Orlanth priest, can be difficult to make recognize (or prove).

[Nevermet]

11 hours ago, EricW said:

I think there is a strong case illumination prevents excommunication, so if someone incurs the displeasure of the local religious leaders yet retains their magic, expect the accusations to fly, at least in private.

As for setting up a new temple in defiance of authorities, that would likely draw a severe reaction. During the first age illuminates plundered gods by setting up false temples, so a suspected illuminate outcast setting up a temple in defiance of religious leaders could be seen an attack on the faith by degenerate chaos worshippers.

IMG, I think I would define excommunication* in terms of being denounced by religious authorities, and as such, I don't think illumination prevents it for many religions or cults, save those that recognize illumination as a good thing, and whose leadership feels compelled to follow their own rules.

 

Illumination would, however, prevent supernatural reprisals against a character who is excommunicated, which in most cases would probably either make them look even more terrifyingly wrong, or perhaps delegitimize the religious leader who ostracized them in some cases.

 

* All this acknowledging that excommunicate, as a word, has a lot of Roman Catholic connotations that don't fit Glorantha well, but I realize that's tangential to your point.

[French Desperate WindChild]

8 hours ago, Nevermet said:

IMG, I think I would define excommunication* in terms of being denounced by religious authorities, and as such, I don't think illumination prevents it for many religions or cults, save those that recognize illumination as a good thing, and whose leadership feels compelled to follow their own rules.

absolutly

you can be rejected by your mundane cult but still recognized by your god (for good or bad reasons)

you can be rejected by your god and accepted by your mundane cult (until some divination or any divine proof of the rejection...)

 

In my glorantha

if you are illuminate there is no reason your god  understand you're a bad worshipper (as you can trick it) until other initiates see (then show to the god) you doing really bad things.

That means illumination "powers" are not 100% efficient: you can be attacked by spirit of reprisals, if you are seen by mundane god's eyes (aka initiates), but if you are hidden or in a place without your cult mates, you are safe

 

PS "Bad" and "good" are considered from the cult/god morale perspective

[EricW]

12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

absolutly

you can be rejected by your mundane cult but still recognized by your god (for good or bad reasons)

you can be rejected by your god and accepted by your mundane cult (until some divination or any divine proof of the rejection...)

 

In my glorantha

if you are illuminate there is no reason your god  understand you're a bad worshipper (as you can trick it) until other initiates see (then show to the god) you doing really bad things.

That means illumination "powers" are not 100% efficient: you can be attacked by spirit of reprisals, if you are seen by mundane god's eyes (aka initiates), but if you are hidden or in a place without your cult mates, you are safe

 

PS "Bad" and "good" are considered from the cult/god morale perspective

YGGMV, but if this was the case the first age empire of light could have been crippled by enemy priests identifying dark side illuminates to their god.

The dark side illuminated healers spreading plague weren’t destroyed by spirits of reprisal, they were rounded up by Arkat and killed.

Illumination IMO is like foul Thannatar magic except instead of carrying a few heads of slain and bound enemies, who are forced to use their divine magic in the service of chaos, the illuminates do it to themselves. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, EricW said:

but if this was the case the first age empire of light could have been crippled by enemy priests identifying dark side illuminates to their god.

it is not because something doesn't happen that it cannot happen 🙂

And i don't know light illumination teachers may have some technics to avoid or identify and destroy dark side students.

Maybe they were not enough to break the system.

9 hours ago, EricW said:

The dark side illuminated healers spreading plague weren’t destroyed by spirits of reprisal, they were rounded up by Arkat and killed.

absolutly, but that is not because a god is able to destroy mortals, than other mortals (like arkati)  will not try to kill their ennemies. And their ennemies don't need to be illuminates to be killed

I am just saying that illumination is not something excluding everything else.

Illuminate stay in the world, like anybody. They can live among anybody, they can suffer like anybody around them. They can be hunted like anybody by their communauty ennemies.

And as they are weird from their community perspective, they can be banned / hunted / feared / killed by their own community, without help of any god (for the illuminates or for the community).

In the same way, a non illuminate who is weird can be banned / hunted /feared / killed by the community.

people are people. They don't need gods to kill in the name of their gods

 

 

[Darius West]

On 4/6/2021 at 9:11 PM, EricW said:

I think there is a strong case illumination prevents excommunication, so if someone incurs the displeasure of the local religious leaders yet retains their magic, expect the accusations to fly, at least in private.

It is an interesting point, and the rules for Illumination are not clear on this.  Excommunication is supposed to break the connection between the deity and the worshipper via intervention by the High Priest, and has been expressed as divine magic in RQ3.  Illuminates are not immune to divine magic, but are immune to spirits of reprisal.  The current status of the rules on this point list no power of Illumination that could prevent them from having their connection to a deity via initiation severed by direct divine/rune magic intervention, but there is no excommunication spell either in RQG.

On 4/6/2021 at 9:11 PM, EricW said:

As for setting up a new temple in defiance of authorities, that would likely draw a severe reaction. During the first age illuminates plundered gods by setting up false temples, so a suspected illuminate outcast setting up a temple in defiance of religious leaders could be seen an attack on the faith by degenerate chaos worshippers.

This position is perfectly reasonable in its assumptions, but we don't have much documentary evidence for it taking place.  You'd think this sort of abuse was rife, but perhaps during the lifetime of the living god Nysalor, he himself curtailed the potential abuses?  Certainly this sort of abuse was common during the Second Age, and explains a lot about the abuses that the God Learners put the various cults through.

On 4/7/2021 at 6:03 AM, EricW said:

Orlanth is dead suggests Lunar spies are everywhere stirring up trouble and mistrust. Some of the dirtshines, high ranking child hostages returned by the Lunars after years of indoctrination, would be illuminates.  I think illumination would still be recognised as a factor, everyone knows the story of Lokamaydon. But yes, the accusation would likely be the offender is a Lunar spy.

Here is a good way of detecting illumination and Lunar Espionage.  While illuminates are generally immune to the effects of their deity, an exception to this rule is found in the effect of the Moon on Rune Spells.  If you get them to cast their cult magic on a day of the dark moon and it is half-power or beyond them, or on a full moon day and it is doubled, you know they are at least a member of a moon cult.  Illuminates can hide a lot of things, but this is a magical shibboleth they cannot hide.

[David Scott]

On 4/5/2021 at 3:23 PM, jajagappa said:

Or if they are Illuminated, and use that to nefarious purposes.

Illumination will have no effect on a 3pt ban under RQG and not every illuminate gets immunity to spirits of reprisal. There are however many Illumination powers and so one stopping ban from working may exist (however I would suggest that it would stop all rune magic including the illuminates rune magic working too).

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Here is a good way of detecting illumination and Lunar Espionage.

How exactly do you get them to cast their magic? (and illumination has no effect on moon phase casting).

Edited April 9, 2021 by David Scott

[Darius West]

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

Illumination will have no effect on a 3pt ban under RQG and not every illuminate gets immunity to spirits of reprisal. There are however many Illumination powers and so one stopping ban from working may exist (however I would suggest that it would stop all rune magic including the illuminates rune magic working too).

Yes, I forgot that Excommunicate was now called Ban.  Good to know.  And yes, illuminates don't get their full suite of powers automatically like they did in RQ2, and that is a good thing imo, as it creates opportunities for scenarios which involve the development of such powers, which can only help contextualize things, and means players have to work for them rather than having them handed out gratis.

2 hours ago, David Scott said:

How exactly do you get them to cast their magic? (and illumination has no effect on moon phase casting).

Well, you can ask them nicely in a court of law...  With the subtext being that not to comply might be taken as admission of guilt.

Now consider, Moon Phase is something even illuminates are bound to, especially if they belong to a Lunar cult and that is the source of their illumination in the first place.  It is not a spirit of retribution, and thus Illuminates have no immunity to it, but all their subsequent magics are forever bound to the Moon, as it says in the write-up.  So, if someone claims to be an Orlanthi, Humakti, Yelmalio,  but their magic is overtly tied to the moon (a proposition we can test and demonstrate), they have some explaining to do.  As it is almost impossible to become a Lunar spy without some sort of Lunar affiliation, it is a tell that the individual has a tie to the Moon Rune, and if they are also claiming (legitimately) to be an Orlanthi (they are a genuine illuminated initiate of Orlanth, and a lunar cult), then their magic will be moon affected.

I have posited that this use of the Moon Rune may have been manipulated later by Argrath, in reverse.  After all, having your magic doubled within the Glowline is a very handy thing, and you might even leave the Temples of the Reaching Moon in place so you can exploit the loophole.   And from there you are only about 3 Hero Quests away from building a Temple of the Reaching Storm imo.  

[EricW]

On 4/9/2021 at 11:24 PM, Darius West said:

Yes, I forgot that Excommunicate was now called Ban.  Good to know.  And yes, illuminates don't get their full suite of powers automatically like they did in RQ2, and that is a good thing imo, as it creates opportunities for scenarios which involve the development of such powers, which can only help contextualize things, and means players have to work for them rather than having them handed out gratis.

Well, you can ask them nicely in a court of law...  With the subtext being that not to comply might be taken as admission of guilt.

Now consider, Moon Phase is something even illuminates are bound to, especially if they belong to a Lunar cult and that is the source of their illumination in the first place.  It is not a spirit of retribution, and thus Illuminates have no immunity to it, but all their subsequent magics are forever bound to the Moon, as it says in the write-up.  So, if someone claims to be an Orlanthi, Humakti, Yelmalio,  but their magic is overtly tied to the moon (a proposition we can test and demonstrate), they have some explaining to do.  As it is almost impossible to become a Lunar spy without some sort of Lunar affiliation, it is a tell that the individual has a tie to the Moon Rune, and if they are also claiming (legitimately) to be an Orlanthi (they are a genuine illuminated initiate of Orlanth, and a lunar cult), then their magic will be moon affected.

I have posited that this use of the Moon Rune may have been manipulated later by Argrath, in reverse.  After all, having your magic doubled within the Glowline is a very handy thing, and you might even leave the Temples of the Reaching Moon in place so you can exploit the loophole.   And from there you are only about 3 Hero Quests away from building a Temple of the Reaching Storm imo.  

I'm troubled by the use of ban against illuminates. Does Ban work on someone who is pure of heart, someone righteous, who is perfectly in tune with the strictures of their god? Because illuminates always register as righteous, even the gods can't tell they are apostates.

As for the moon rune test, someone could simply claim they were out of magic. But if you allow them back to the temple, they'll demonstrate their piety by regaining their spells from Orlanth or whatever, and maybe sacrificing for something which gets them out of there. 

[Darius West]

10 hours ago, EricW said:

I'm troubled by the use of ban against illuminates. Does Ban work on someone who is pure of heart, someone righteous, who is perfectly in tune with the strictures of their god? Because illuminates always register as righteous, even the gods can't tell they are apostates.

Yes, the thing is, illuminates are NOT always righteous, are they?  This is why the Gods have mortal agents.  To ensure that their worshippers are properly disciplined.  On the other hand, Ban is a 2 edged sword, and an infiltrator could quit plausibly use it.

10 hours ago, EricW said:

As for the moon rune test, someone could simply claim they were out of magic. 

Great.  See you at the start of next season for your trial.  Back to the prison cells with this suspect, bailiff, and ensure that they have plenty of austerities to focus their spiritual energies.

10 hours ago, EricW said:

But if you allow them back to the temple, they'll demonstrate their piety by regaining their spells from Orlanth or whatever, and maybe sacrificing for something which gets them out of there. 

It isn't about getting their spells back, it is about the lunar effect on their magic, which is observable, given where they are in the cycle.  As for guided teleport, well, simply deny them access to the Mastakos shrine so they cannot sacrifice for or renew their magic there.

[EricW]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Yes, the thing is, illuminates are NOT always righteous, are they?  This is why the Gods have mortal agents.  To ensure that their worshippers are properly disciplined.  On the other hand, Ban is a 2 edged sword, and an infiltrator could quit plausibly use it.

Great.  See you at the start of next season for your trial.  Back to the prison cells with this suspect, bailiff, and ensure that they have plenty of austerities to focus their spiritual energies.

It isn't about getting their spells back, it is about the lunar effect on their magic, which is observable, given where they are in the cycle.  As for guided teleport, well, simply deny them access to the Mastakos shrine so they cannot sacrifice for or renew their magic there.

Lords of terror suggests illuminates are immune to excommunication.

Quote

Immunity to Spirits of Reprisal - This includes immunity to Excommunication. Divination cannot determine that an individual is illumined or has become an apostate.

As for being bound to the lunar cycle, their lunar magic would be bound - but would their other magic from non-lunar sources also be bound? I thought illumination was in part about transcending cult limits. I guess you could interpret it either way 😉

 

Edited April 11, 2021 by EricW

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 4/9/2021 at 3:24 PM, Darius West said:

As it is almost impossible to become a Lunar spy without some sort of Lunar affiliation, it is a tell that the individual has a tie to the Moon Rune, and if they are also claiming (legitimately) to be an Orlanthi (they are a genuine illuminated initiate of Orlanth, and a lunar cult), then their magic will be moon affected.

I m not sure to understand exactly your position.

Do you mean than let's say a illuminate lunar agent , both initiate in seven mothers (or any lunar cult) and Orlanth (or any non lunar cult) will be affected by the moon cycle in both lunar magic and non lunar magic ?

For me there is three things:

the moon magic is affected by the moon

the illumination "powers" may be affected by the school (lunar or other)

the non moon magic is not affected by the moon. Why should it ?

 

 

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

the moon magic is affected by the moon

the non moon magic is not affected by the moon. Why should it ?

The issue is that illuminates do not suffer from spirits of retribution, but the lunar effect is specifically not a spirit of retribution.

In RQ2 write-ups it specifically says that Seven Mothers and similar cults don't have spirits of retribution, but anyone who attempts to leave will permanently be affected by the Lunar phases in any other cult they join.  It has been stated elsewhere that as this is not a facet of retribution but a "flavor change", that even illuminates are affected by it permanently, especially pertinent as most illuminates are lunar initiates of some kind. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Darius West

[French Desperate WindChild]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

The issue is that illuminates do not suffer from spirits of retribution, but the lunar effect is specifically not a spirit of retribution.

In RQ2 write-ups it specifically says that Seven Mothers and similar cults don't have spirits of retribution, but anyone who attempts to leave will permanently be affected by the Lunar phases in any other cult they join.  It has been stated elsewhere that as this is not a facet of retribution but a "flavor change", that even illuminates are affected by it permanently, especially pertinent as most illuminates are lunar initiates of some kind. 

oh I didn't know that (we will see if it is still the case with the so expected cults books).

Does that mean that if you are both seven mothers initiate and kyger litor initiate, then the kyger litor magic is impacted by the moon (because "flavor change" ) or only when you leave seven mothers cult ( "flavor change" as retribution) ?

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

The issue is that illuminates do not suffer from spirits of retribution, but the lunar effect is specifically not a spirit of retributionIn RQ2 write-ups it specifically says that Seven Mothers and similar cults don't have spirits of retribution, but anyone who attempts to leave will permanently be affected by the Lunar phases in any other cult they join.  It has been stated elsewhere that as this is not a facet of retribution but a "flavor change", that even illuminates are affected by it permanently, especially pertinent as most illuminates are lunar initiates of some kind. 

It's still the case that Lunar cults don't have a spirit of reprisal, but some like the Crimson Bat, Etyries, Hon-eel, and Yara Aranis do.

[davecake]

On 4/8/2021 at 2:59 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

And i don't know light illumination teachers may have some technics to avoid or identify and destroy dark side students.

Illuminates often have techniques to identify Illuminates. Light or dark are subjective judgments of moral character, and can't be determined by magic. If you identify an Illuminate who is concealing their Illuminated status and performing odd deeds, questions may get asked. 

The Lunars attempted to set up a system to determine the 'right' sort of Illuminates from the wrong sort - but its just questioning the Illuminated on their beliefs and judging the answers they give. Yes, the thing is, illuminates are NOT always righteous, are they?  This is why the Gods have mortal agents.

 

Edited April 13, 2021 by davecake