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21 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Which begs the question "How did the Elves of Brithos become Illuminated?"

Bruce Springsteen and Manfred Mann show us one way:

Quote

Mama always told me not to look into the eyes of the Sun,
But Mama, that's where the fun is...

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3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Which begs the question "How did the Elves of Brithos become Illuminated?"

That聽is聽a good question. Something-something-Yelmalio?

(Also, curious why the Brithini even allow elves on their home island,聽when they could just tap them instead.)

Edited by Akh么rahil
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5 hours ago, Akh么rahil said:

Also, curious why the Brithini even allow elves on their home island,聽when they could just tap them instead.

I鈥檇 guess an ancient agreement.

Brithos is not the original homeland of the Brithini but a place of refuge. If the Brithini break the agreement then they start to age. Or worse (whatever that may be for the Brithini).

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25 minutes ago, Charles said:

why the Brithini even allow elves on their home island,聽when they could just tap them instead.

Oh My Glorantha !聽

I wonder if there is some kind of tapping ritual somewhere on Glorantha (maybe in Shadows Dance, or even on Brithos ?)聽where elves would get tapped聽at the beginning of sea-season, when nights are still freezing cold and days warm enough to melt the snow, much like what is done with聽maple trees each spring in the North-East聽part of America.聽From the elves perspective, this would be聽seen as some kind of ritual sacrifice, maybe even a propitiatory one, where they would give some of their own sap as we would ritually sacrifice some of our own blood. But who would take聽that sacrificial sap and how ? How would聽it be transformed, and who would be聽providing the heat, Yelm, Lodril,聽Zorak Zoran, some Certami, or maybe even Cragspider聽?聽What are the sweet golden liquid's聽powers ?聽

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And Arkat being Illuminated by the elves of Brithos implies that Illumination spread among elves remarkably quickly, far outstripping the speed at which it was聽spread among humans by Nysalors missionaries. Maybe the elves of Brithos had representatives at the creation of Osentalka who brought the knowledge back with them.聽

7 hours ago, Akh么rahil said:

Also, curious why the Brithini even allow elves on their home island,聽when they could just tap them instead.

It is not strictly their homeland - and was initially quite forest covered, like much of Seshnela and Fronela was, so the elves may have quite outnumbered the Brithini.聽

1 hour ago, Charles said:

I鈥檇 guess an ancient agreement.

The Brithini have some sort of agreement with the goddess Britha. Though the Brithini exploit it ruthlessly, she is supposed to have volunteered for it. She may even have made some provision to preserve the elf forests as part of it.聽

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On 4/17/2021 at 6:23 AM, metcalph said:

He was illuminated by the Elves of Brithos.聽

The Elves of Brithos must be an interesting lot.聽 They would have one of the more bizarre histories of all the elves imo.

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I think the Elves of Brithos are related to the Elves of Jorestl's and Kanthor's Forest in Seshnela.聽 In Revealed Mythologies, there's a very old section about how Brithos was once connected to the mainland which in fact is shown on Trollpak p12.聽 聽There's also a mythlet in Cults of Terror p15 of Zzabur showing High King Elf how to enchant away the gorp (I think this is a distorted memory myself as Zzabur's much too powerful to have much traffic with petty demigods).

As for the Illumination, the text implies that Arkat's Illumination was Nysaloran but this may not be so.聽 People were illuminated before the Sunstop - it being a mystical insight conferred by Yelm).聽 In addition, people who followed the Dragons, the Sages of the Eastern Isles etc could also said to be illuminated.聽 So the Elves of Brithos could have been attempting something during the Sunstop and so created an independent mystical tradfition.聽聽

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37 minutes ago, metcalph said:

As for the Illumination, the text implies that Arkat's Illumination was Nysaloran but this may not be so.聽 People were illuminated before the Sunstop - it being a mystical insight conferred by Yelm).聽 In addition, people who followed the Dragons, the Sages of the Eastern Isles etc could also said to be illuminated.聽 So the Elves of Brithos could have been attempting something during the Sunstop and so created an independent mystical tradfition.聽聽

Yeah, I'm leaning towards an independent tradition myself.

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The Elves of Brithos needn't be in any way reliant upon human traditions of illumination.聽 Indeed, given Arkat's overall existence I would suggest that he would be far more likely to be interested in a non-human way of relating to the world.聽 I know some folk want to limit illumination and mysticism, but I think it likely that there is a hell of a lot of it about, with profoundly differing insights and methodologies.

Just consider the wonderful possibilities inherent in the Donandari Mystic School of Tar-Ararboomdiyay.

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On 4/18/2021 at 1:28 PM, metcalph said:

As for the Illumination, the text implies that Arkat's Illumination was Nysaloran but this may not be so.聽 People were illuminated before the Sunstop - it being a mystical insight conferred by Yelm).聽 In addition, people who followed the Dragons, the Sages of the Eastern Isles etc could also said to be illuminated.聽 So the Elves of Brithos could have been attempting something during the Sunstop and so created an independent mystical tradfition.聽聽

Is Nysaloran Illumination potentially or completely Chaotic? There is a great conflict between Arkat and Nysalor, which this version of illumination ignores. I don't understand the reasons for saying Arkat was illuminated.

I thought that in Kralorela, where Dragons are worshiped, Illumination was taught by Metsyla, who is not the recommended Kralorelan option.

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5 minutes ago, Tcneseis said:

Is Nysaloran Illumination potentially or completely Chaotic? There is a great conflict between Arkat and Nysalor, which this version of illumination ignores. I don't understand the reasons for saying Arkat was illuminated.

Arkat was Nysalor's Shadow, or Gbaji was, or Arkat was Gbaji's Shadow, depending on who you ask.

in any case, Arkat seems to have much the same type of Illumination as Nysalor. Now, Arkat might have had Rashoranic Illumination, as opposed to Nysaloran Illumination, but Nysalor, or rather Osentalka, was Rashoran reborn, so has essentially the same kind of Illumination.

Nysalorans say that Nysalor had "Good Illumination", Light-Side Illumination, but Gbaji has "Bad illumination", Dark-Side Illumination, they also count Arkat as being like Gbaji, with Dark-Side Bad illumination.

Gbajites say that all Illumination is the same, there is no Light-Side or Dark Side, they are simply extremes or points of view, in the same way that there is no Light/Dark/Good/Bad Water or no聽Light/Dark/Good/Bad Lightning. Some water kills and some nourishes, but it is the same water. Some lightning聽kills and some lights up the sky, but it is the same Lightning.

Arkati say that Arkat had "Good Illumination", Light-Side Illumination, but Nysalor and Gbaji had聽"Bad illumination", Dark-Side Illumination, as they make no distinction between them.

I use Illumination Powers wisely, You use them poorly and They abuse them. All three essentially say that.

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13 minutes ago, Tcneseis said:

Is Nysaloran Illumination potentially or completely Chaotic?

My understanding is basically that Nysalorean Illumination was kind of an attempt to mass-produce Illumination, or to almost mechanically reliably cause it, hence the riddles and all that, and hence why it has caught on with mass-movements for centuries afterwards.聽

This seems to have the negative outcome that it doesn't quite have the same "quality control" that Eastern (and other) mystic traditions have, where they (mostly) prevent people who have the potential to go absolute crazypants from going through the steps.聽

It's not really that either kind of Illumination is (inherently) Chaotic, it's more about what kind of experiences it primes the mystic with, afaik.

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5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Well, he did switch cults without apparent consequence.

I take on the powers of multiple deities to fight my enemies, You take on the powers of multiple deities with no regard of what is right or wrong, They take on the powers of multiple deities in a wicked, evil and world-destroying way.

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1 hour ago, Tcneseis said:

Is Nysaloran Illumination potentially or completely Chaotic?

No.聽 Illumination is associated with the Infinity Rune and Nysalor's tradition (which is derived from Yelm) approaches it through the Fire (or Light Rune).聽 It could be used for chaotic means

1 hour ago, Tcneseis said:

I don't understand the reasons for saying Arkat was illuminated.

It's from the Cult of Nysalor writeup in聽Cults of Terror.

1 hour ago, Tcneseis said:

I thought that in Kralorela, where Dragons are worshiped, Illumination was taught by Metsyla, who is not the recommended Kralorelan option.

Dragons teaches Illumination (Infinity Rune through the Dragon Rune).聽 Metsyla's illumination is different as he represents the old solar tradition.

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On 4/18/2021 at 7:28 PM, metcalph said:

As for the Illumination, the text implies that Arkat's Illumination was Nysaloran but this may not be so.聽 People were illuminated before the Sunstop -

Nysalor was the first deity to allow easy Illumination, but it happened before then, yes, Metsyla being an example. In Eastern myth plenty of people get mystic insight before Nysalor, but it generally seems to take a long time (lifetimes for mortals, often). I think some modern mystic traditions still have to rely on extreme teaching methods, such as heroquesting to the Green Age, or extreme ascetism, and the almost accidental Illumination known is almost entirely Nysaloran. And of course draconic forms may rely on drastic methods such as surgery.聽

Though I'm still willing to accept that Arkats Illumination was likely Nysaloran, it would have to have taken place very quickly after Nysalor's birth, implying some elves travelled from the birth to Brithos fairly directly (which is possible). But it's not the only possibility. It would be nice to have more than a single sentence about it!

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I think that聽illumination casts a shadow, and every illuminate generates a nemesis for themselves, who sees them as their opposite and an abuser of illumination.聽 They are each a "thesis" to聽each others' antithesis.聽 While Nysalor teaches the reconciliation of opposite, that isn't the way it plays out, and Rashoran, Nysalor,聽the RMG and Jar-Eel are dismembered while trying to reconcile with their nemesis.聽 There is no synthesis per se.聽 Not all opposites can be reconciled.聽 Unresolved contradictions tend to be extremely destructive, even if they seem harmless enough when first encountered.聽 From what I have read, Mysticism seems to demand an adherence to philosophical purity that can see through some contradictions聽(as some apparent contradictions are not in fact contradictions on closer inspection), but not every contradiction can be reconciled or answered, and these become聽"wounds" that the mystic must integrate as they become a "body of philosophy".

While there is reason to believe that Nysalori Illumination spread to Brithos, as Cults of Terror specifically says that Arkat fought the cult on his home island, nothing suggests that the Aldryami were specifically illuminated by the Nysalori (and thus Arkat was illuminated by the Nysalori).

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3 hours ago, Darius West said:

I think that聽illumination casts a shadow, and every illuminate generates a nemesis for themselves, who sees them as their opposite and an abuser of illumination.聽

Rather, endless numbers of Eastern mystics, not to mention the entire race of dragonnewts, preach that involvement in the affairs of the world retards spiritual progresss - and this idea of an Illuminate casting a shadow/bringing forth a reaction, is perhaps a demonstration of why. It is not every Illuminate that is inevitably entangled in the world and falls into spiritual and magical conflict - but we don't hear much about the ones that manage to avoid using their mystic powers in conflict and quietly get on with their spiritual work.

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

While there is reason to believe that Nysalori Illumination spread to Brithos, as Cults of Terror specifically says that Arkat fought the cult on his home island, nothing suggests that the Aldryami were specifically illuminated by the Nysalori (and thus Arkat was illuminated by the Nysalori).

No, Occams Razor suggests it - it just doesn't demand it. We know the elves in general were part of the Osentalka project, we know they embraced Nysalor (and know nothing about them embracing any other mystic philosophy), and it seems even less likely that the elves of Brithos were embracing Eastern doctrines, or draconic ones. So it could be an entirely different mystic approach, but it does seem rather over complicating the likely implications of a single sentence to me.聽

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On 4/23/2021 at 1:28 AM, davecake said:

No, Occams Razor suggests it - it just doesn't demand it. We know the elves in general were part of the Osentalka project, we know they embraced Nysalor (and know nothing about them embracing any other mystic philosophy), and it seems even less likely that the elves of Brithos were embracing Eastern doctrines, or draconic ones. So it could be an entirely different mystic approach, but it does seem rather over complicating the likely implications of a single sentence to me.聽

I don't recall if the men of Brithos were involved in the First Council.聽 I don't think they were though.聽 So the likelihood of elves (from Brithos), who are more stay-at-home than humans to get involved seems even more unlikely.聽 I think the reach of the First Council was more geographically limited, and its reach only increased under聽Nysalor as he wanted to missionize everybody.聽 We know Arkat was illuminated by elves, but to presume that those elves were illuminated by Nysalori, when those self-same Nysalori hadn't even managed to successfully missionize the Brithini port cities yet, seems like a stretch to me.聽 It seems a great deal more plausible that the Brithini Elves already had their own indigenous tradition of illumination.

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