The Moon (the Element, and the cultural impact)

[PhilHibbs]

This page:
https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/runes/

has a linked document "runes.pdf", which says on page 4:

Quote

 Moon Rune
Meaning: Illusion, cycles, balance
The Lunars claim that the Moon is the sixth Element,
but this is rarely accepted outside the Lunar Empire.

Interesting. RQG presents Moon as unequivocally an element.

Quote

Note: The Moon Rune is taboo amongst the
Orlanthi and, if awakened during the adulthood
initiation rites, will almost certainly result in you being
killed by your own clan.

Is this still a thing? Did this trend die out with Lunar occupancy? Vasana has a Moon rune expression, it's her second Element but at 50% it's as likely to hinder her as help if she calls upon it. She came of age in the middle of The Great Winter, when all the normal rules of Orlanthi society were in disarray. Makes sense that people weren't murdering their healthy, useful young people in a time of crisis.

Edited June 28, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Oracle]

I think this text reflects the rune descriptions in Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes. Given this book is still considered to be canon (at least with respect to basic cultural descriptions), this book describes Sartar during the time of the Lunar Occupation, i.e. around 1618 ST. Runequest:Roleplaying in Glorantha has 1625 ST as its starting time, i.e. after the liberation, so views may have changed with respect to the Moon rune. Also RiG is not as much focussed on Sartar as SKoH is.

[Scotty]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

This page:
https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/gloranthan-documents/glorantha-2/runes/

has a linked document "runes.pdf", which says on page 4:

Please note that I've updated this page to reflect its source - Sartar Kingdom of Heroes (2009). It's one of a small number of pages and docs I'm updating so their sources aren't ambiguous.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Is this still a thing? Did this trend die out with Lunar occupancy? Vasana has a Moon rune expression, it's her second Element but at 50% it's as likely to hinder her as help if she calls upon it. She came of age in the middle of The Great Winter, when all the normal rules of Orlanthi society were in disarray. Makes sense that people weren't murdering their healthy, useful young people in a time of crisis.

Vasana doesn't have an awakened Moon rune. It's not connected to a moon rune cult, she's not awakened it with a point of POW. Just as in HQG, the moon is a know rune that comprises the building blocks of the world. It's fine amongst the Orlanthi, providing you don't use it actively (as in joining a moon cult).

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Vasana doesn't have an awakened Moon rune. It's not connected to a moon rune cult, she's not awakened it with a point of POW.

That's not something I'd considered, that joining a cult and spending POW would awaken a rune. If it involves joining a cult and sacrificing POW, how would a Sartarite youth awaken the Moon rune during adulthood initiation rites (and be killed for it) if there isn't a Moon rune based cult active in their culture? Can you stumble into joining a cult that nobody around you that you've ever met worships, a calling directly from the gods or ancestors? I imagine such things do happen, rarely, a calling out of the blue (or red) that nobody expected. Given the kinslaying thing, I would think that exile and outlawry (and probable death, unless you're a hero destined to change the world, i.e. you have lucky dice) would be more normal.

Vasana has 70% in the Truth rune, and 75% in Death, presumably these runes are not "awakened". This is a new term to me, an "awakened rune". She can use them to augment her abilities, but she isn't a member of a cult that teaches her any magic that uses those runes. I thought it was just as simple a distinction as that.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

That's not something I'd considered, that joining a cult and spending POW would awaken a rune. If it involves joining a cult and sacrificing POW, how would a Sartarite youth awaken the Moon rune during adulthood initiation rites (and be killed for it) if there isn't a Moon rune based cult active in their culture?

I'd imagine it's a rare but not unknown occurrence (story hook). Probably started happening after the Moon rise, with the (low) frequency increasing the nearer the lunars got. In Lunar occupied lands, with Seven Mothers converts or just lay members around, It likely happened a few times. I can imagine Jar-eel busting into a few initiation rituals or other Lunar HeroQuesters doing so as a disruptive force. Likely as a particular opponent manifests as a Moon enemy instead of a chaos one (same thing).

Quote

Can you stumble into joining a cult that nobody around you that you've ever met worships, a calling directly from the gods or ancestors?

In that context no, but there's always a black sheep in the family somewhere.

Quote

I imagine such things do happen, rarely, a calling out of the blue (or red) that nobody expected.

I'd only use it as as story hook that the adventurers were part of.

Quote

Vasana has 70% in the Truth rune, and 75% in Death, presumably these runes are not "awakened". This is a new term to me, an "awakened rune". She can use them to augment her abilities, but she isn't a member of a cult that teaches her any magic that uses those runes. I thought it was just as simple a distinction as that.

It's a term we've used in my group to explain why you have the have the moon rune but aren't a Lunar. Same with characters with high Darkness runes who aren't trolls, it's part of your make-up, but isn't connected (awakened) to a cult. One player called it an unawakened affinity. Which is a mouthful, but does sum it up.

Edited June 25, 2021 by David Scott

[soltakss]

On 6/25/2021 at 9:34 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Is this still a thing?

Maybe, but there are always exceptions.

PC Adventurers are among those exceptions.

On 6/25/2021 at 9:34 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Did this trend die out with Lunar occupancy?

Maybe, but those people would be seen as Lunar sympathisers or, even worse, as Lunars, by the fanatics that are out there.

Having a Moon Rune is certainly a story point and can drive scenarios and affect encounters.

 

 

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 6/25/2021 at 4:34 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Is this still a thing? Did this trend die out with Lunar occupancy?

Wouldn't this "kill the Moon rune" thing in Orlanthi society purely be a function of the existence of the Lunar Empire, full stop? It exists because Sedenya appeared, and I don't imagine it existed before then, when the only Moon was the Blue Moon.

Was there even a Moon rune then? The sixth soul might not have existed yet.

[PhilHibbs]

17 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Wouldn't this "kill the Moon rune" thing in Orlanthi society purely be a function of the existence of the Lunar Empire, full stop? It exists because Sedenya appeared, and I don't imagine it existed before then, when the only Moon was the Blue Moon.

By "Lunar occupation" I mean in the last couple of decades, the empire has been around for hundreds of years 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 6/25/2021 at 2:34 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Quote

Note: The Moon Rune is taboo amongst the
Orlanthi and, if awakened during the adulthood
initiation rites, will almost certainly result in you being
killed by your own clan.

Is this still a thing? Did this trend die out with Lunar occupancy?

Curiosity compels me to ask, where did this come from, classic RQ or HQ/HW? 

ETA got it, never mind...

 

On 6/25/2021 at 3:33 AM, Oracle said:

Given this book is still considered to be canon

I would like to think so, myself, but I seem to recall some of the high mucky-mucks saying thee nay.

 

On 6/25/2021 at 4:30 AM, Scotty said:

Please note that I've updated this page to reflect its source - Sartar Kingdom of Heroes (2009). It's one of a small number of pages and docs I'm updating so their sources aren't ambiguous.

Thanks Scotty

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

By "Lunar occupation" I mean in the last couple of decades, the empire has been around for hundreds of years 

So you think it's even newer? Seems appropriate. I was trying to be clear about it not being age-old, but I should never misjudge the original ass man

[Oracle]

On 6/25/2021 at 11:33 AM, Oracle said:

... Sartar:Kingdom of Heroes. Given this book is still considered to be canon ...

With respect to the question about, what is canon, I've detected, that the Well of Daliath can become a bit confusing regarding this topic, because there a two pages, which try to describe canonical documents:

• Canon
• Gloranthan Canon

The first lists all the Heroquest 2 books related to Glorantha, whereas the latter does not. My guess is, that the first is the copy of the respective page from the old glorantha.com web site, and the latter is an original Well of Daliath page. Therefore the first page may be outdated and superseded by the second, but this is not obvious, as the first page does not contain any direct hint, and it is listed as a related page from the Runes page referenced by the OP.

Edited June 27, 2021 by Oracle

[Scotty]

9 hours ago, Oracle said:

• Canon
• Gloranthan Canon

Thanks for pointing out the error. It looks like the original was kept by the software after being retitled. It's been deleted.

 

[PhilHibbs]

11 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

So you think it's even newer? Seems appropriate. I was trying to be clear about it not being age-old, but I should never misjudge the original ass man

I don't know how much the pre-Sartarite Orlanthi knew about the events before or at Castle Blue, but the portents were clearly bad. It was before the settling of Dragon Pass, so when the settlers moved in, they were migrating slowly towards this strange new thing in the sky. Could children at that time manifest an awakened Moon rune? I don't know, if it involved initiation into a cult then I don't see how it could happen other than by the most unusual circumstances until the Sartarites came into contact with actual Lunar cults in...possibly the late 1400s, around the time of Sartar himself?

There is to me a subtle implication that having to kill a Moon-touched adolescent is common enough that it is worth mentioning, if it was a once-in-a-generation unusual magical event that causes a spontaneous Moon awakening (initiation) then I don't think it would really deserve noting as a cultural thing that happens. Therefore I think it only happened since there was regular contact with Moon cults. That implies late 1500s, the time of the adventurers' great-grandparents.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There is to me a subtle implication that having to kill a Moon-touched adolescent…

Please! It’s “choosing to kill.” I’m actually offended by your choice of words IRL. Do take care.

[Nick Brooke]

I know (from discussions with @Jeff) that the sophisticated cafes and salons of Lunar-occupied Boldhome are full of Moon-inclined types: poets, dreamers, mystics, people longing for a better world where they and their friends can fit in. Classing all of these as people you “have to kill” - because the gods forbid that any traditionalist parent should have to raise a deviant freethinker, a queer, a punk, a kook, a poetry-loving Moonie kid - borders on the actively disgusting. I’m sure you didn’t intend it that way, but please be careful what signals you send out.

[PhilHibbs]

Right. Absolutely, that was a terrible thing to say.

[French Desperate WindChild]

from my perspective:

the RQG rules say  Moon rune exists and is part of the elemental runes, defining a character

the rules say that any rune propose different ways to impact personality, some active, passive, nice, bad, more or less associated with its "divine owner' etc.. so the rune doesn't imply a clear and unique fate/personality/choice/deity to worship/empire to follow.

 

so sartarite oracles may say that this kid is cursed by the moon ("argghhh this guy will follow the red moon and betray us") and that kid is blessed by the moon ("ohhh that guy will dream a lot and may bring us some art or weird magic we will benefit"). Or just say nothing. Or just say not the truth for political reason or by ignorance.

and then the ring decides what to do, if something has to be done.

 

And that should be the same with other runes: light rune in troll friend sartarite (or why not troll community) ; dark rune in sun dome community, etc...

 

[PhilHibbs]

Having introspected a little more, some of the most powerful and memorable things I've ever read have been "casual outrage". Trevor Noah in "Born a crime", describing his life growing up as a mixed race kid in the South African townships, all the terrible problems that the system inflicted, and how they have to look out for each other, just as you're at "peak sympathy" with the oppressed, throws in the line that "You don't interfere when a man is beating on his woman. You don't know the history." BOOM, bubble burst. And in one of the later ASOIAF books, there's a line from the POV of a viking-style reaver who has just captured a ship, "The perfumed boys they wrapped in chains and threw overboard. They were an abomination." Horrifying, written from the self-justified point of view of a person in the world. In his mind, he's doing the right thing. Another passage about broken men in times of war brings me to tears every time I read it.

I was putting my mind in the headspace of another culture where this is not only acceptable but the right thing to do. I've done worse in roleplaying games, one of my characters committed atrocities that have caused me to lose sleep. It's uncomfortable, but just as rewarding as reading challenging passages like the above and trying to figure out why it is that people think that way. I don't think I'm going to stop doing that, but I will try to take care how I phrase things in future.

This is what I love about Glorantha. It casually mixes the wonderful and the horrific in a way that is often rather uncomfortable. It's not sanitised or aligned on clear good-vs-evil lines. You can confront the dark side of human nature. I guess you can in any game, but in Glorantha it's right there.

[Qizilbashwoman]

10 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I don't know, if it involved initiation into a cult then I don't see how it could happen

There's no Lunar cults at all in Orlanthi territory, but given that a non-infintessimal number of Orlanthi (like, run the numbers, it's actually significant) have a Moon rune I suspect there must be something they initiated into, even if it were not very satisfying. A spirit cult. Annilla, via Troll allies (a Darkness and Moon cult, and thus a secret sister of the Earth). Something must be around for those who have a Moon rune before the Lunars arrive.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[PhilHibbs]

Just now, Qizilbashwoman said:

...a non-infintessimal number of Orlanthi (like, run the numbers, it's actually significant) have a Moon rune...

Where do those numbers come from?

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Where do those numbers come from?

the Orlanthi rule: a spread of 85% and then the rest divided up, then consider what the "divided up" portion looks like when you allot even 1% to Moon when you consider the number of Orlanthi in, say, Dragon Pass, to get a guess about numbers. (A lot of that portion would be Water.)

Edited June 28, 2021 by Qizilbashwoman

[Lordabdul]

Note that S:KoH p71 has the same text for both the Moon and Chaos Rune, i.e. "...is taboo amongst the Orlanthi and, if awakened during the adulthood initiation rites, will almost certain result in you being killed by your own clan". In that sense, I doubt that it's OK to have a Chaos 60% Rune on your character sheet but tell the clan Storm Bulls "no, really, it's OK, I didn't join any Chaos cults so it's no awakened! I'm good! I swear!" 🙂   Therefore I interpret this as S:KoH saying that you can't have the Moon Rune on your (HeroQuest) character sheet. I think this whole "awakened/unawakened" business is irrelevant to the OP.

S:KoH also says that the Air Rune is incompatible with the Moon Rune and Chaos Rune. Apparently you can't have both on your (still HeroQuest) character sheet. There's a mention that Lunars can do that, though, to some degree.

So really, I would just ignore this whole part of S:KoH. It seems obvious that the authors changed their mind (just look at Vasana's Rune affinities), and this is yet one more thing where HQ's Glorantha differs from RQG's Glorantha. IMHO, it's a change for the better.

Edited June 28, 2021 by lordabdul

[Qizilbashwoman]

42 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

So really, I would just ignore this whole part of S:KoH. It seems obvious that the authors changed their mind (just look at Vasana's Rune affinities), and this is yet one more thing where HQ's Glorantha differs from RQG's Glorantha. IMHO, it's a change for the better.

Well, in Sartar:KoH to awaken with the rune of the Enemy Gods who are literally consorting with Chaos: it's unsurprising they'd be put to the knife as devils. I mean really, they're literally your enemies now, as they are going to pledge to the enemy Middle Air deities who are genociding your culture. This ain't Prax.

[Nick Brooke]

This isn’t the first time I’ve said “fuck that” to a poorly-conceived notion introduced to Glorantha by HeroQuestWorldWars, and I doubt it’ll be the last. But it’s certainly one of the heartiest.