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jajagappa

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Jeff has been kind to share a lot of interesting content on Sartar communities on FB (presumably for the upcoming Sartar book).  Three are Colymar clans, one a guild, and one other (plus some local maps and illustrations).

ERNALDORI CLAN DESCRIPTION
One of the largest, oldest, and most powerful clans in Sartar, the Ernaldori are named after the Earth goddess, who is their patron and protector.
LOCATION
The Nymie Vale along the Stream, southwest of the Quivin Mountains.
POPULATION
The Ernaldori clan is one of the larger Sartarite clans, with some 1,600 members. Of these, some 800 are free adults, mostly farmers, and 300 are semi-free tenants and laborers. There are approximately 60 free households.
Forty-four people are singled out in the clan to be of special significance, according to their social rank. They are:
1. Baranthos the Chief*
2. Chief’s wife.
3. Dunorl the Chief Priest of Orlanth Thunderous, Rainmaker*
4. Erenava Chan, High Priestess of Ernalda, Earth Woman*
5. Yanioth the Old, Priestess of Asrelia*
6. Wilms Willandring, Wind Lord of Orlanth Adventurous, Champion*
7. Hastur, Priest of Lhankor Mhy, lawspeaker*
8. Hareva Chan, Thane, priestess of Issaries, Goodvoice*
9. Grain Goddess Priestess
10-25. Heads of notable Households.
26-44. Priests and other thanes.
 
*indicates member of Clan Council. An eighth member, *Clown, is not on this list.
SETTLEMENTS
The largest population center in the Nymie Vale is the town of Clearwine Fort, which has about 1000 adults. 550 of the adults living there are members the Ernaldori clan, making up half the clan’s population, including most of the clan leaders. There are 70 households within the town, including the household of the tribal ruler (which is far larger than most households) – however, the tribal ruler is not often a member of the clan.
The clan’s other 550 adults are divided into 40 households. Twelve households live in a village called Greenbrass, on the west side of the Nymie River. Five live in a hamlet north of Clearwine near the old Lunar ruins. Another five live in a hamlet near the base of the Little Starfire Ridge. The other 18 households live on their farms scattered around the vale. About 100 adults live outside of the clan homeland.
MAGIC
The Ernaldori are closely tied to the Clearwine Earth Temple, a major temple of the Ernalda cult. They also have a minor temple to Orlanth Thunderous, and six shrines to other deities – Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Flamal, Donandar, Gustbran, and Minlister – controlled by the clan. As a result, clan members have access to a very broad range of spirit magic spells, the full range of Ernalda Rune Magic, Orlanth Thunderous magic, and some Rune magic from several other cults. The clan’s magic is strongly oriented towards Earth and Fertility.
Numerous earth elementals of all size serve as temple associates, as does a nymph and a Snake Daughter. The temple has numerous guardians and magical artifacts such as the Mirror of Ernalda, an many minor magical items such as binding matrixes for earth elementals or spell matrixes.
The clan itself has a guardian spirit that takes the form of a sacred corn snake. As a result, harming such snakes is taboo for clan members.
MILITARY
The Ernaldori maintain a militia of 320 adults, which trains and serves as part of the Colymar tribal militia. The clan chieftain is expected to lead the defense of the clan against any foes. To aid the chief, the clan maintains five martial thanes and ten bodyguards.
LORE
The Clearwine Earth Temple archives has land tenure, harvest, and granary records going back some 300 years, as well as records of those who served the temple, and many marriage and genealogical records. The temple knows the name of most significance Earth spirits and minor deities in western Sartar. Temple archives also include some Second Age and early Third Age records from the Holy Country. Much of this information is written in Theyalan, although some cult information is carved in Earthtongue.
The clan elders possess much oral history and gossip concerning the history of the Colymar Tribe and of the Principality of Sartar.
WEALTH
The Clearwine Earth temple possesses great agricultural wealth, stores enough grain to feed 10,000 people for a season, and has reserves of precious metals. Members of that clan control much of that wealth, making them one of the wealthier clans in Sartar.
The clan also has rich farmlands it directly controls.
LEGAL/POLITICAL
The Clearwine Earth temple has great influence in the Colymar Tribes and in the tribes around Wilmskirk. Thousands of people look to the temple for fertility and harvest blessings, and all the Colymar clans are sworn to defend the temple.
The Ernaldori themselves have great influence within the Colymar Tribe and have particularly strong ties with the Anmangarn, Arnoring, Konthasos, Ormarth, and Taraling Clans, as well as with the Zethnoring Clan of the Locaem Tribe. They had close ties with the Sartar Dynasty prior to the Lunar Conquest.
COUNSEL/ADVICE
The clan has several elders well regarded for their wise advice and good counsel. With the aid of the Earth Priestesses, members can find a good marriage partner in much of Dragon Pass and even the Holy Country.
SOCIAL
The clan throws feasts and festivals at least once a season. These include athletic contests (particularly foot and chariot races, and fighting), eating, dancing, drinking, and music, and other social and cultural activities.
ECONOMICS
The Ernaldori Clan is almost an appanage to the Colymar Earth Temple, which is an important holy site of Sartar. They are a large clan, and their base annual surplus is 300W. They are a Peace Clan and have fertile croplands. They also have a magical site of regional importance which brings in income from pilgrimage and patronage, but that wealth is under the control of the high priestess of the Earth Temple. These three resources make their annual surplus 525W.
Their Military expenses are: 20W for their chief, 50W for thanes, 10W for bodyguards. Their total Military expenses are only 80W (their size, however, gives them a Militia of 320 men, which count as 32W of Military strength for an effective total of 112W).
Their Magical expenses are: 20W for their chief priestess, 200W for priests, 60W for 12 god-talkers, 30W for five scribes, 48W for 12 crafters, 20W for 5 temple healers (apprentice priestesses), and 28W for 7 temple dancers. Their total Magical expenses are 406W.
The rest of the surplus (39W) is stored with the Earth Temple. This allows them to support a Major Temple to the Earth Goddess 23 priestesses and 6 god-talkers), and minor temple to Orlanth Thunderous (5 priests, 4 thanes and 3 god-talkers). They have 6 shrines to other deities – Babeester Gor, Issaries, Flamal, Donandar, and two others.
 
Q: We noticed a lack of temples or shrines to Issaries and LM. Oversight? Aren't they needed for Hastur and Hareva?
A: You go to the tribal temples. This is the stuff controlled by the clan. Or you go to Wilmskirk or Jonstown, as there are proper temples there. Clans are not self-contained.
 
> One thing we tried to do with the Sartar Book is present the network of clans, temples, and tribes that make up Sartar. I might be an Ernaldoring, but if I worship Gustbran, I'm going to Wilmskirk for my god's holy ceremonies. And if I worship Orlanth Adventurous, my religious focus is likely tribal, not clan.
 
Map by Matt Ryan and Jeff Richard (I believe I got that correct)
May be an image of map
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Next, from Jeff on FB, the Varmandi.

VARMANDI CLAN
The Varmandi are a small clan, and herd cattle and sheep in Stael’s Hills and the Thunder Hills, areas claimed by other clans, and this often puts them into conflict with their neighbors. They are sometimes known as the “Badger clan.”
LOCATION
The Varmandi are located between Tarkalor Keep and Apple Lane, along the border between the Colymar Tribe and the Malani Tribe.
POPULATION
The Varmandi are small clan numbering some 450 people. Of these, 225 are free adults, and 75 are semi-free herders or tenant farmers. They have about 20 households.
Twenty people are singled out in the clan to be of special significance, according to their social rank. They are:
1. Korol Serpent-Tongue, the chieftain
2. Hindala, Chief’s wife and Earth Woman
3-5. Orlanth Thunderous god-talkers
6-8. Ernalda Wise Women
9-15. Thanes.
16-20. Heads of prominent families.
SETTLEMENTS
Their main settlement is the small walled village of Oakton, which has about 70 adult residents. There are four households within the village, including the household of the clan chieftain.
The clan’s other 230 adults are divided into 16 households. Six live on farms clustered around Tarkalor Keep, and four are relatively near Apple Lane. The other six households live in steads near the border with the Malani Tribe.
MAGIC
The Varmandi support a minor temple to Orlanth Adventurous and shrines to Ernalda and Voriof. The clan‘s guardian spirit resides in the Oak of Vengeance, a sacred oak in the center of Oakton, and is the source of the clan’s terrifying war cry and their ability to heal themselves in combat. The clan chief serves as the clan’s chief priest.
The clan is served by several spirits (including a badger spirit that is the source of the clan’s taboo against harming that animal) and Air elementals. The clan chieftain possesses the Lerith Sword, an ancient magical weapon, and the clan also has several minor magical artifacts. The clan is strong with war and combat magic but is quite weak with fertility and earth magic.
MILITARY
The Varmandi are a war clan, and their Orlanth Adventurous temple serves as a warrior society. The clan has fifteen full-time warriors (in addition to the thanes) who support themselves through war and raiding. The clan can muster about 120 people as the clan militia, including many slingers and skirmishers.
LORE
The Varmandi have several storytellers that keep the oral lore of the clan back to when it settled in the area around 1325. Herders and hunters know paths and ambush places throughout the local hills.
WEALTH
The Varmandi are a poor clan, and suffered terribly during the Lunar Occupation. The clan has comparatively little arable land—only about 60 hides worth. Most of the clan’s wealth is in the form of their livestock. Some of the animals are needed for plowing and daily support, but the Varmandi keep about 400 cattle and 1200 sheep in the hills. Of these, some 100 cattle belong to the tribal Orlanth temple (whose high priest is the tribal king) and are sacred to the local Orlanth cult. The livestock graze primarily in the Gejay Hills, which often puts them in conflict with the neighboring Malani tribe, specifically the Orleving clan.
LEGAL/POLITICAL
The Varmandi are notorious troublemakers and have few allies even among the Colymar Tribe. They have turbulent and violent history, even by Sartarite standards. They have a long-standing feud with the Orleving Clan of the Malani Tribe who drove them out of the Ormathane Vale centuries ago. The Varmandi are notorious for having started several tribal wars with their feuds. King Tarkalor built a tower and hunting lodge in Varmandi lands to keep peace between the Colymar and Malani tribes.
COUNSEL/ADVICE
The Varmandi are not particularly regarded for their wise counsel or advice on matters of peace; however, they are shrewd and skilled raiders and bushwhackers.
SOCIAL
The Varmandi hold the typical local Orlanthi seasonal festivals. During their Orlanth Adventurous festival, their warriors perform a group dance at the Oak of Vengeance with sword fighting and accompanied by drums and spoken poetry.
ECONOMY
The Varmandi are a small clan and their surplus is only 100W. The Varmandi are a War Clan and bring in another 100W a year through raiding, looting, and mercenary activities. This gives them the ability to support additional thanes and warriors purely through raiding. They need to take in 10W per thane and 4W per warrior so supported through raiding, usually through cattle raids, or by support from the tribal king or by selling their services as mercenaries. The Varmandi have a warrior society with 7 thanes and 15 warriors that is supported purely through this means. This makes them very unpopular with their neighbors. However, this allows them to maintain a minor temple to Orlanth Adventurous, and shrines to Ernalda and Voriof.
Out of this they pay:
40W for their chief and chief priestess.
70W for seven thanes or priests. They have 7 thanes.
60W for 15 warriors.
30W for six god-talkers (worth the equivalent of 4 priests).
 
> One thing that quickly comes out of this for me - boy, the Varmandi would suck to have as neighbours.
 
Map by Matt Ryan and Jeff Richard.
May be an image of map
Edited by jajagappa
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And the 3rd clan shared by Jeff on FB.

One more community resource description:
ORLMARTH CLAN
This medium-sized clan herds cattle and sheep on the Starfire Ridges, and grow grain and grapes in the lowland valley. The Orlmarth are often called the “Woodpecker clan.” This clan is sometimes also called the “Starfires,” because of where they live; and the “Keeper of Secrets”, presumably because of their role in tribal male initiation rites.
LOCATION
The Orlmarth live along the Starfire Ridges to the west of the Quivin Mountains. This is a rugged area with much seismic activity. The Starfire Ridges are a high mass of tuff and sandstone, and there is geothermal area called the Cinder Pits with steaming sulfur vents.
POPULATION
The Ormarth are a medium-sized clan numbering some 800 people. Of these, 325 are free adults, and 125 are semi-free herders or tenant farmers. They have about 35 households. About 100 members of the clan live outside of the clan territory.
Twenty-six people are singled out in the clan to be of special significance, according to their social rank. They are:
1. Savan Kenstrelson, the chieftain
2. Chief Priestess
3-13. Priests and other thanes
14-16. Three crafters (red-smith, stonemason, pottery artist)
17-26. Heads of important households
SETTLEMENTS
About half the clan resides in Old Man Village, a walled village in the Nymie Vale near their border with the Ernaldori clan with about 400 residents. There are about 18 households, including that of the chieftain and the crafters. The village controls access to the Starfire Ridges.
Another 12 households live in four small hamlets scattered around the Nymie Vale below the Starfire Ridges. Five more households live in steads on the Starfire Ridge itself.
About 100 members of the clan live outside of the clan territory, mostly in Clearwine Fort about 8 kilometers away.
There can be up to 300 young men residing on the Starfire Ridges, in several makeshift camps.
MAGIC
The Orlmarth maintain a minor temple to Orlanth Thunderous, and shrines to Ernalda, Esrola, Voriof, Orlanth Adventurous, and one more deity. The clan has five full-time priests, five martial thanes, and eight god-talkers. The clan sage of Lhankor Mhy is part of the Knowledge Temple in Wilmskirk. For more important Earth Magic, the Clearwine Earth Temple is nearby. The Orlmarth control access to a major temple to Orlanth atop the Starfire Ridges, which gives them access to many powerful cult spirits and Air elementals. The clan’s magic is strongly oriented towards Air and Movement.
The clan has several magical treasures including the Thunderer’s Wagon which needs four oxen to pull it, and numerous matrixes for Rune and spirit magic.
The red-headed woodpecker is sacred to them, and their guardian spirit is bound to one of the woodpeckers in the clan lands. It is taboo for clan members to harm red-headed woodpeckers.
MILITARY
The Orlmarth maintain five martial thanes from the Orlanth Adventurous cult and 12 full-time warriors, led by the clan chief. The clan can muster about 175 militia, including many slingers and skirmishers. The clan militia musters and trains as part of the Colymar tribal militia.
In addition, there are often as many as 300 young men on the Starfire Ridges, where they hunt, raid, and learn to fight as a group. These bands serve as skirmishers.
LORE
The Orlmarth priests are an oral repository of Orlanth cult lore and of Colymar songs going back three centuries. The clan has a reputation for singing, typically accompanied by drumming.
The clan sage records events, accounts, and clan and tribal legal matters, and writes correspondence on behalf of the clan chief.
WEALTH
The Orlmarth have enough arable land for subsistence; most of their surplus wealth comes from their livestock (particular sheep) and their control of the Orlanth holy sites on the Starfire Ridges.
The Orlmarth or the bands of young men on the Starfire Ridges often raid the Greydog Clan for additional resources.
LEGAL/POLITICAL
The Orlmarth are closely linked by marriage, cult, and tradition to the other Colymar clans. The clan has significant influence in tribal affairs, and four of the last twelve tribal kings have come from this clan – all died heroically in the defense of the tribe.
This clan has a long-standing rivalry with the Greydog clan of the Lismelder tribe, who live on the other side of the Starfire Ridge.
COUNSEL/ADVICE
The Orlmarth are well-listened to by the other Colymar clans. They are typically able to find good marriage partners throughout the Colymar Tribe.
SOCIAL
The Orlmarth look to Clearwine Fort (only about 8 km away) for larger cultural activities, including athletic competitions, fertility celebrations, and for trade opportunities. The clan events are either strongly associated with the larger Orlanth cult or are “clubby” events where outsiders are rarely welcome.
The clan priests oversee male apprenticeship rights for several local clans, and bands of young men seeking to prove themselves can often be found on the Starfire Ridges.
ECONOMICS
The Orlmarthing have an agricultural surplus of 200W, with another 75W coming from their control of a major temple to Orlanth. They often raid the Greydog clan for additional resources. Out of this they pay:
40W for their chief and chief priestess.
100W for ten thanes and priests. They have five priests, and five thanes.
60W for 12 bodyguards
40W for eight god-talkers.
12W for three crafters. They have a red-smith, a mason, and a potter.
6W for a scribe
 
> What I am pleased about is how different the Ernaldori are from the Orlmarth, even though they are traditional marriage partners, are only 8 km away, and pretty much interlinked. And the Varmandi just have it tough.
 
With another map snippet from Matt Ryan and Jeff Richard.
May be an image of map
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And a different sort of community by Jeff on FB.

Here's another example of a RuneQuest community from the Sartar Book:
BOLDHOME BRONZE WORKERS GUILD
The Bronze Workers Guild of Boldhome smelts bronze out of copper by alloying it with tin (both of which are mainly brought to Boldhome by caravans from Esrolia or Tarsh) in kilns and then melting the bronze and casting it into molds. The cast bronze object is then finished– polished, sharpened, joined, decorated, etc. Because the copper and tin ingots are imported from elsewhere, there is relatively little slag produced. To become a guild member is the same process as becoming a lay member of the guild’s patron deity; in addition, the candidate must swear loyalty to the guild and pay an annual “contribution” to the guild’s communal funds. In return, the guild protects its members and furthers their livelihood.
LOCATION
The Bronze Workers Guild House is located on Brass Street in the West Pocket of the city of Boldhome.
POPULATION
There are 75 full initiates of the Bronze Workers Guild and another 75 apprentices. There are 5 priests, who serve as the masters of the guild.
MAGIC
The Guild House is a minor temple to Gustbran the Bonesmith. The priests teach spirit magic spells and provide access to Gustbran’s Rune Magic. They also have several bound Fire Elementals that serve the guild, and several Gods Bones, which are sacred artifacts.
MILITARY
The Guild employs 30 full time guards to protect its members. These guards are all well-equipped with bronze armor and weapons.
LORE
The Guild scribes keeps records of accounts and contracts going back over a century, including member records, correspondence with caravans, miners, mercenary companies and cults, and financial records.
WEALTH
The Guild has a monopoly over the crafting of bronze in Boldhome, collects rents on homes and workshops, and owns mines that produce copper and tin. Collectively, this gives it wealth greater than most clans.
LEGAL/POLITICAL
The Bronze Workers Guild has great influence in the city of Boldhome. Its members are citizens and participate in the city assembly.
SOCIAL
The Bronze Workers Guild has seasonal ceremonies for its members, and, together with the Pottery Guild, sponsors a festival each Storm Season after the Orlanth High Holy Day.
ECONOMICS
The Bronze Workers Guild is on Brass Street in the city of Boldhome. It is a Minor Temple to Gustbran, the god of the forge. The society is actually quite small—there are far less than 500 smiths who are members of it—but it counts as an Average sized society because of its large customer base. This gives it a base surplus of 200W (note that the crafters of the guild are not an expense). The guild has trade agreements with many mercenary companies and cults, and collects rent from many of the forges and homes of its members that it owns. It also owns many of the mines that produce the metals it depends on. These are three resources, which increase its surplus to 350W a year.
Their magical expenses are 50W for the minor temple; it employs 2 god-talkers, 2 priests and a chief priest. The chief priest is the Guild Master and receives another 10W in support. It employs 30 full time guards to protect the temple grounds (120W), and 10 scribes to handle its accounts (50W). Finally, it spends 50W of influence annually on parties, gifts, and contributions to city officials. The total expenses are 280W.
The final 70W left over after expenses are used for purchasing additional copper and tin, or is saved and used for emergency expenses.
 
JR> As an aside, I'd much rather have comments on the actual Guild than questions about Gods Bone or the length of swords, etc.
> I am sure all the Guilds have had to make forced "loans" to various rulers and warlords.
> Actually most of the copper from Copper Town comes in the form of ingots. There are kilns all over the area near Copper Town, and loads of slag mounds.
 
Q: So are the smiths of the Guild mostly resident in Boldhome and its immediate environs, then? I wonder if they're also picking up some revenue from contributions from redsmiths coming from further afield for their worship ceremonies. The full century of records intrigues me as well- a very straightforward use for that Library Use skill...
A: All of the smiths of the BOLDHOME guild are mostly resident in Boldhome.
 
(Art by the amazing Loic Muzy)
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And a note related to the Bronzeworker's Guild from Jeff on FB:

Copper Town (town): This fortified settlement of some 2000 inhabitants is home to the miners and crafters who work the copper mines in the Barastaros Hills, one of the richest copper ores in Dragon Pass. Ore is brought from the mines and smelted outside the town in kilns and furnaces, and poured into molds. The copper bars are then transported by mule to Early Rise and then to Furthest, or shipped downriver to the Lunar Heartlands. Copper slag heaps from the last three centuries litter the landscape around Copper Town. The city is “owned” by the King of Tarsh and governed by his deputies.
 
Q: How young do the miners begin work?
A: Probably thirteen. I would be reluctant to universalize
 
Q: Do they worship Gustbran (or the Lunar equivalent) or is there a god of miners?
A: Asrelia is the patron of mining.
 
> So to put it more in a way that the Gloranthans would get, copper is found in rocks that hide treasure. You prise out the copper ores from the rocks using mauls and hammer stones. You then crush the ores and then smelt it. You remove sulphurs and other impurity through heating and create plenty of slag waste. You then take the copper and form it into ingots for transport to the metalworkers.
> So there are certain rocks that hide copper within. But you got to work to get it out. But where you have these rocks, there can be a lot of copper!
> So the finding of the ore - you sacrifice to Asrelia, as she is the Goddess of Treasure Beneath the Earth. Smelting the ore, that is Gustbran the Workfire and God of the Kiln.
 
Art by the amazing Loïc Muzy of course.
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A few more notes from Jeff:

>People might have noticed that there are a lot of references to things like athletic competitions in the new Sartar material. Foot and chariot races, fighting (with weapons or without), throwing, hurling, or shooting competitions, and so on - all of that would be commonly something that is a part of many seasonal festivals. With eating, drinking, dancing, and music, of course.

> These festivals have booze, dancing, music, athletic competitions- lots of youthful romance!

> As an aside, some of these festivals likely get pretty wild, and taken very seriously. There is an athletic competition in Two Hour Town, where a biennial competition is held to celebrate Orlanth's wooing of Ernalda. One of the events is to run from Two Hour Town to Sartar's Palace (culminating in running up the Thousand Steps) about 20 km away. While wearing a full kit of bronze armor - helmet, cuirass, greaves, and vambraces. In early Earth Season, when the temperature is going to be in the mid-20s.

 

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thanks a lot both @jajagappa and @Jeff for these sharing

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As an aside, I'd much rather have comments on the actual Guild than questions about Gods Bone or the length of swords, etc.

love it, hahah,

 

How Sartarite guilds are open to new customers and new ideas

Is there some taboos (religious or political, or ..) ?

With picture, are they more oriented :20-power-movement: or :20-power-stasis: or :20-combination-communication:

For example

country "ennemy" : were they reluctant to work for lunar during the occupation, to provide scimitar for example now they are free or business is business

weird customer : what about a kralori who wants to repair or to obtain a new kralori weapon ?

fool inventor: what about this guy who wants to create a (put what you want) machine and give them some plan even dwarves will not imagine, to build parts of it

Of course there is difference between individual and guild as a global community, my point is more the guild than the individual.

 

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16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

They also have a minor temple to Orlanth Thunderous, and six shrines to other deities – Asrelia, Babeester Gor, Flamal, Donandar, Gustbran, and Minlister – controlled by the clan.

As the central Earth temple for much of Sartar, I'd expect a shrine to Ty Kora Tek as well (or at least connected to the clan's urnfields).

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Clearwine Earth Temple archives has land tenure, harvest, and granary records going back some 300 years, as well as records of those who served the temple, and many marriage and genealogical records. The temple knows the name of most significance Earth spirits and minor deities in western Sartar.

I like the fact that the Earth Temple has all these archived records, not just the Lhankor Mhy temples.  Means that investigations into issues surrounding the lands (and spirits of the land) require talking to the Earth priestesses.

I presume the Earth Temple likely hires LM scribes to do the actual recording and archival work.

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

stores enough grain to feed 10,000 people for a season

Clearly would have been depleted during the Great Winter.  The bountiful harvests of the subsequent years has presumably restored the supplies.

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

With the aid of the Earth Priestesses, members can find a good marriage partner in much of Dragon Pass and even the Holy Country.

There must be regular ventures/pilgrimages by Earth priestesses from the temple to the other Dragon Pass temples and the Earth temples of Esrolia.  Arrangement and delivery of marriage partners just being one aspect. 

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The Varmandi have a warrior society with 7 thanes and 15 warriors that is supported purely through this means. This makes them very unpopular with their neighbors.

Given that the land north of the Creek belongs to the Dragonewts, their raids will mostly be directed northeast and east (against the Malani), southeast (to the Arfritha Vale), or west (against the other Colymar clans including their neighbors the Hiordings and the Runegate clans).  Seems like there will always be complaints about the thieving Varmandi.

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:
About 100 members of the [Orlmarth] clan live outside of the clan territory, mostly in Clearwine Fort about 8 kilometers away.
 

Interesting that so many Orlmarthi live in Clearwine.  Presumably this includes those who are thanes/warriors for the tribe, some members of the Ernalda temple, merchants, and laborers.

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

In addition, there are often as many as 300 young men on the Starfire Ridges, where they hunt, raid, and learn to fight as a group.

I bet a lot of this group's attention is focused on the Lismelder on the far side of the ridge.  Do the Lismelder's young initiates also live upon the Starfire Ridge?

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

What I am pleased about is how different the Ernaldori are from the Orlmarth, even though they are traditional marriage partners, are only 8 km away, and pretty much interlinked. And the Varmandi just have it tough.

I like to see how different these groups are, and they offer good insight into putting together interlinking clans in other areas of Sartar. 

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51 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I bet a lot of this group's attention is focused on the Lismelder on the far side of the ridge.  Do the Lismelder's young initiates also live upon the Starfire Ridge?

Nope. Probably handled on a clan by clan basis with them. And far far fewer.

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Jeff added one more community on FB:

This one is pretty incomplete and fragmentary as I am not sure I want to include a finished version in the Sartar Boxed Set, but I thought the Hiording might be interesting.
HIORDING
Sometimes called the “Swansons” or “Swancloaks,” the members of this clan are descendants of Hiord and Safeela, a swan maiden. This average-sized clan inhabits the upper Swanvale. They raise grain in the lowlands and herd cattle and sheep in the Thunder Hills. The hamlet of Apple Lane—with its market, inn, and Uleria temple—is within their clan lands.
LOCATION
The Hiording are in the Upper Swanvale, between Tarkalor Keep and Tarndisi's Grove.
POPULATION
The Hiording are an average-sized clan numbering some 800 people. Of these, 300 are free adults, and 150 are semi-free herders or tenant farmers. They have about 20 households. About 100 members of the clan live outside of clan territory (mainly in Apple Lane or Clearwine Fort).
About twenty-five people are singled out in the clan to be of special significance.
SETTLEMENTSThe main settlement is the village of Swan with about 100 adult residents divided into 5 households, including the households of the chief and chief priestess.
Another 5 households live in and around Apple Lane.
Another 3 households live in or around Asborn's Stead.
7 more households are scattered around the Swanvale
MAGIC
Minor temple to Orlanth Thunderous and Ernalda, with a shrine to Barntar. Apple Lane has shrine to Uleria, shrine to Issaries.
The clan spirit resides in a cloak of swan feathers worn by the chief priestess. The clan Earth priestess speaks to the clan wyter, which resides in a cloak of swan feathers worn by her. The chieftain is the clan’s Storm Voice and serves as warleader and judge. The chief Orlanth Thunder Priest of the Colymar Tribe belongs to the clan.
There are 7 priests and priestess, 3 Orlanth Thunderous (including one in Apple Lane), 3 Ernalda, 1 Uleria, and 5 thanes (including the Thane of Apple Lane). There are 5 god-talkers - 2 Ernalda, 2 Orlanth, and 1 Barntar.
Most prominent member of the clan is the tribal chief priest of Orlanth Thunderous, Asborn Thriceborn. He is considered a tribal official (although is factored into this).
The women of the clan receive a cloak of swan feathers at their initiation and wear it whenever they are to be seen by outsiders.
MILITARY
Five thanes, 10 full time warriors. 175 militia.
LORE
There is a Scribe in Apple Lane (Squinch). He maintains records and accounts, with archives going back about a century.
ECONOMICS
200 W
Fertile valley +30W
Apple Lane +50W
Chief and Chief Priestess ´40W
12 thanes and priests and priestesses 120W
5 god-talkers 25W
Minor Temple - 50w (Orlanth and Ernalda)
3 Shrines - 15W (Uleria, Issaries, Barntar)
1 Scribe - 6W (Squinch)
1 crafter 4 W (Horsemaster in Apple Lane)
The most prominent member of the clan, Asborn Thrice Born, who supports himself with an extra +20W a year
 
 
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One important change is that the - demographically absurd for an ancient society - assumption that for every population group 50% are children is finally ditched - although conveniently the 'free adults' remain 50% with 33% being children and 17% 'semi-free' (which also seems a new departure to me in that previously IIRC there was no doubt that cottars were 'free') so you can still gloss over older sources with the 50% figure.

 

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3 hours ago, Professor Chaos said:

And so is also a 20 multiplier (there being 20 lunars/guilders to a wheel)

Although pretty sure Orlanthi would never calculate anything in the currency of the evil emperor...

The memory of the Gold Wheel Dancers, a valuable ally in the Unity Council, adopted by the corrupt empire. Using these means liberating the fossilized bodies of ancient allies, a good and honorable thing to do.

There is Urrgh the Ugly's hoard at Old Wind, not causing any spiritual trouble there (other than pushing Londra to ponder what to spend it on).

Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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5 hours ago, Professor Chaos said:

which also seems a new departure to me in that previously IIRC there was no doubt that cottars were 'free')

Terms like carls, cottars, etc. are out the window in official publications. Because cottars are basically tenant farmers, they are rendered as "semi-free" or something similar, iirc. Carls are free.

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3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Terms like carls, cottars, etc. are out the window in official publications. Because cottars are basically tenant farmers, they are rendered as "semi-free" or something similar, iirc. Carls are free.

Cottar and carl are no more or less anachronistic than 'thane' which still survives.

If Jeff is really serious that only bronze age terms will do then as pseudo-Mycenaeans Sartarites should surely have a wanax, a pa-si-reu and an eq-et-a instead of a king, a chieftain and a thane?

It also leads to pointlessly long-winded descriptions like 'semi-free herder' - three words (two of which are IMO still problematic in that I don't think that there is anything in previous canon to suggest that cottars while poor are not free) - to replace one perfectly good word.

And given that thane is still OK then why 'martial thane' rather than the far more characterful weaponthane?

Anyway my Glorantha will certainly vary on this.

 

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43 minutes ago, Professor Chaos said:

Cottar and carl are no more or less anachronistic than 'thane' which still survives.

If Jeff is really serious that only bronze age terms will do then as pseudo-Mycenaeans Sartarites should surely have a wanax, a pa-si-reu and an eq-et-a instead of a king, a chieftain and a thane?

It also leads to pointlessly long-winded descriptions like 'semi-free herder' - three words (two of which are IMO still problematic in that I don't think that there is anything in previous canon to suggest that cottars while poor are not free) - to replace one perfectly good word.

And given that thane is still OK then why 'martial thane' rather than the far more characterful weaponthane?

Anyway my Glorantha will certainly vary on this.

 

IIRC the logic isn't "only Bronze Age terms will do" but rather "we don't want people - especially new players - to think the Orlanthi are just Norsemen/Saxons." A lot of decisions in recent portrayals of the Orlanthi have apparently been conscious efforts to divorce them from how they were previously often portrayed in art as almost 1:1 with Norsemen, Saxons, and/or Iron Age Celts. The idea is to get across that the Orlanthi are their own thing, which is also why Mycenaean terms haven't been used to replace them.

Personally, though, I'm fine with keeping the old terms. I do think the replacements we have now sound kind of drab and not the kind of terms the people in-universe would be likely to use in their everyday language. I can't really picture someone introducing himself proudly as a "semi-free tenant" of the Ernaldori clan. I don't feel strongly against the decision, though. I get why it was done and I don't actually disagree with it from the standpoint of not wanting new players to get the wrong idea about how to portray the Orlanthi in new books. But in play I'm almost certainly going to default to using "cottar" rather than "semi-free tenant." YGWV and all.

Really, it's not much different from how pre-imperial titles of Chinese nobility are typically translated using European equivalents, so that you have historical figures from that period being referred to as the "Marquis of Jiu" or "Duke of Zhou" and such. This obviously has the problem that Bronze Age Chinese feudalism was necessarily very different from Medieval European feudalism, just as the social structure and culture of the Orlanthi is obviously very different from any of the many Earthly inspirations they draw from, and that it might cause people to mistakenly assume the two are more similar than they really were. But much as with the case of pre-imperial China, I don't think the alternatives (using a different language's terms, or using the indigenous terms as-is - which in this case would require constructing at least part of a proper Theyalan language group - or going for more literal translations, which is what Chaosium has chosen) are necessarily better for adequately describing things, and IMO they're less fun to say.

Edited by Leingod
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4 hours ago, Leingod said:

IIRC the logic isn't "only Bronze Age terms will do" but rather "we don't want people - especially new players - to think the Orlanthi are just Norsemen/Saxons." A lot of decisions in recent portrayals of the Orlanthi have apparently been conscious efforts to divorce them from how they were previously often portrayed in art as almost 1:1 with Norsemen, Saxons, and/or Iron Age Celts. The idea is to get across that the Orlanthi are their own thing, which is also why Mycenaean terms haven't been used to replace them.

Personally, though, I'm fine with keeping the old terms. I do think the replacements we have now sound kind of drab and not the kind of terms the people in-universe would be likely to use in their everyday language. I can't really picture someone introducing himself proudly as a "semi-free tenant" of the Ernaldori clan. I don't feel strongly against the decision, though. I get why it was done and I don't actually disagree with it from the standpoint of not wanting new players to get the wrong idea about how to portray the Orlanthi in new books. But in play I'm almost certainly going to default to using "cottar" rather than "semi-free tenant." YGWV and all.

Really, it's not much different from how pre-imperial titles of Chinese nobility are typically translated using European equivalents, so that you have historical figures from that period being referred to as the "Marquis of Jiu" or "Duke of Zhou" and such. This obviously has the problem that Bronze Age Chinese feudalism was necessarily very different from Medieval European feudalism, just as the social structure and culture of the Orlanthi is obviously very different from any of the many Earthly inspirations they draw from, and that it might cause people to mistakenly assume the two are more similar than they really were. But much as with the case of pre-imperial China, I don't think the alternatives (using a different language's terms, or using the indigenous terms as-is - which in this case would require constructing at least part of a proper Theyalan language group - or going for more literal translations, which is what Chaosium has chosen) are necessarily better for adequately describing things, and IMO they're less fun to say.

I do not subscribe to "only Bronze Age terms will do." But I intensely dislike "cottar, carl, godi, thralls" and the rest of the semi-Scandinavian terminology that got used. I find them incredibly drab - and result in people thinking they are playing yet another setting based on the Norse (e.g., Skyrim, Valheim, Banner Saga, Vikings, et al). 

Greg and I talked about this quite a bit while working on the Guide - in the late 1980s, Norse terminology was largely unknown in the broader American geek population. You might get a few elements of it from Tolkien or some snippets of dialogue from a Walt Simonson Thor comic. And so back then it didn't connect with something that many people had seen or experienced - so it hinted at something, but wasn't particularly restrictive. That's not the case anymore.

The Sartarites have paved roads, libraries, caravans, caravanserai, a large city with stone residences carved out of the cliff side, reside on the edge of a arid plain filled with allied nomads - these are things we want to emphasize. They have far more in common with Hellenistic Bactria or Bronze Age Greece than they do with medieval Norseman (although they are not either). Using pseudo-Germanic terms just confuses things. 

Free are next, the free class of farmers and guild members. They have a life-price of 500 Lunars. Free people have the widest range of legal rights and responsibilities. This rank is sometimes called a “Cattle man.” To qualify, a household must have a whole ox‑team and a plow, and they receive as much land as they can plow in two seasons: about 80-120 acres total and called a “hide” of land. Free people are also expected to own a minimal set of military equipment, and use it to defend the community whenever the chief says to. 

Tenants, also called “Sheep men,” are the next class and are considered “semi-free”. They have a life-price of 200 to 250 Lunars. These are the people who work land assigned to others, apprentice crafters, and/or make much of their livelihood from sheep herds and garden plots. 

 

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6 hours ago, Professor Chaos said:

If Jeff is really serious that only bronze age terms will do then as pseudo-Mycenaeans Sartarites should surely have a wanax, a pa-si-reu and an eq-et-a instead of a king, a chieftain and a thane?

that's wanax and lāwāgeta, gwasileus [basileus], and hekwaira [hetaera, "companion"]

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6 hours ago, Professor Chaos said:

If Jeff is really serious that only bronze age terms will do then as pseudo-Mycenaeans Sartarites should surely have a wanax, a pa-si-reu and an eq-et-a instead of a king, a chieftain and a thane?

As an aside I have never said that and I am getting very tired of this being repeated. Please consider this a warning.

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Jeff - thanks for the clarification on the Demographic Categories Formerly Known as Cottars and Carls and apologies about the Mycenaean dig which was uncalled for and plain silly on my part.

As we are still nevertheless sticking with thane is there not a case for weaponthane rather than 'martial thane'?

 

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