Divine Intervention and Devotion

[PhilHibbs]

We've got this new passion, Devotion (Deity) but it's rather disappointing that mechanics like Divine Intervention don't make any use of it.

The basic problem is that the DI dice roll, whilst a percentage dice roll like any other, isn't like any other. You lose POW equal to the number rolled, so while a +20 augment to your chance would increase your chance... yeah, the consequences of making that roll when you would have failed are rather steep!

I think the whole DI system should be rewritten from the ground up to take account of the very different landscape created by runes, passions, and augments.

Any ideas?

[Bill the barbarian]

Nice!

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

We haven't needed DI yet.  When we do I will try to remember this idea and make up some mechanic.

[PhilHibbs]

The basic problem is that the existing mechanic is really interesting, and any change seems to totally break the magic of why it is interesting.

There is a chance of total POW loss, ending your character instantly. You roll exactly your POW, and you're GONE. You get what you asked for, but the price is your everything.

The chances are that if you succeed, you are crippled for a good while. On average you lose half your POW. If you're super lucky and roll super low then you only lose a few POW. Which is still a lot!

Maintaining that smooth scale - that the price is evenly distributed between 1 point and ALL of your POW - that's hard to replicate any other way.

But maybe it's time to say goodbye to that interesting mechanic. Maybe it's had its day.

Edited August 27, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Eff]

I kind of like what it implies about the world, that you're essentially casting an extremely risky bit of improvised magic, or possibly sacrificing yourself to your god, but the way in which it interacts with the mechanical aspects of worship and sacrifice are a bit incongruous. 

[Martin Dick]

The mechanic is already a bit different from earlier editions, as you get to use your current unspent rune points as part of the total if you are a Runepriest or Runelord, so it is no longer smooth, if you only lose rune points, that's far less damaging than if you lose POW

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

The mechanic is already a bit different from earlier editions, as you get to use your current unspent rune points as part of the total if you are a Runepriest or Runelord, so it is no longer smooth, if you only lose rune points, that's far less damaging than if you lose POW

I would apply that to anyone with a Rune Pool. 

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

We've got this new passion, Devotion (Deity) but it's rather disappointing that mechanics like Divine Intervention don't make any use of it.

DI on Devotion (Deity) works well.

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The basic problem is that the DI dice roll, whilst a percentage dice roll like any other, isn't like any other. You lose POW equal to the number rolled, so while a +20 augment to your chance would increase your chance... yeah, the consequences of making that roll when you would have failed are rather steep!

Currently, DI means that Initiates have a really poor chance of success, even with augments. That makes it rare but unsatisfactory.

16 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the whole DI system should be rewritten from the ground up to take account of the very different landscape created by runes, passions, and augments.

Any ideas?

I like the idea of augmenting your roll with Runes or other Passions.

However, what would be the mechanic of POW loss?

For Initiates:

• On a Success, I would probably roll 1D20
• On a Special success 1D12
• On a Critical Success: 1D10

For Rune Lords:

• On a Success: 1D10
• On a Special success 1D8
• On a Critical Success: 1D6

 

[Martin Dick]

Finally, another use for my D12!

Are Rune Priests treated as Rune Lords or Initiates?

I would only allow Devotion (Deity) to augment as it the measure of your link with your god

 

[soltakss]

6 minutes ago, Martin Dick said:

Are Rune Priests treated as Rune Lords or Initiates?

Up to you, really.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, soltakss said:

DI on Devotion (Deity) works well.

Currently, DI means that Initiates have a really poor chance of success, even with augments. That makes it rare but unsatisfactory.

I like the idea of augmenting your roll with Runes or other Passions.

However, what would be the mechanic of POW loss?

For Initiates:

• On a Success, I would probably roll 1D20
• On a Special success 1D12
• On a Critical Success: 1D10

So if an initiate has a Devotion of 80%, you’re happy to give them an 80% chance of calling on DI?

[AndreJarosch]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

So if an initiate has a Devotion of 80%, you’re happy to give them an 80% chance of calling on DI?

I I don´t know if Soltakss has meant it this way, but i would allow "Devotion (Deity)" to be used as an AUGMENT of an DI roll. 

[Dr. Devici]

I have an idea I would normally balk at for being weird and clunky, but DI is a fiddly dangling rule as it is and this keeps it close to the rule in the book.

Use the Divine Intervention rules as normal, and allow initiates and priests to augment with whatever passions or runes you consider appropriate. If the roll is greater than the initiate's POW (or POW+RPs in the case of priests), subtract that number from the result to determine their loss. e.g. if an initiate with 19 POW successfully augments their divine intervention, their 19% chance of success goes to 39%. A roll of 24 would be a success, and because it exceeds their POW they subtract 19 from the result and get 5 for their characteristic loss.

It kind of sucks, but it doesn't require changing much from the RAW.

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, Dr. Device said:

I have an idea I would normally balk at for being weird and clunky, but DI is a fiddly dangling rule as it is and this keeps it close to the rule in the book.

Use the Divine Intervention rules as normal, and allow initiates and priests to augment with whatever passions or runes you consider appropriate. If the roll is greater than the initiate's POW (or POW+RPs in the case of priests), subtract that number from the result to determine their loss. e.g. if an initiate with 19 POW successfully augments their divine intervention, their 19% chance of success goes to 39%. A roll of 24 would be a success, and because it exceeds their POW they subtract 19 from the result and get 5 for their characteristic loss.

It kind of sucks, but it doesn't require changing much from the RAW.

A decent idea, easy to remember. And a roll of 38 would succeed and leave a POW of 0 just like a 19. Would a roll of 39 be a success with POW reduced to 18, or a success with POW still reduced to 0?

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Dr. Device said:

Use the Divine Intervention rules as normal, and allow initiates and priests to augment with whatever passions or runes you consider appropriate. If the roll is greater than the initiate's POW (or POW+RPs in the case of priests), subtract that number from the result to determine their loss.

Oh, I rather like that. I think "subtract 20" works out if not identical then very close. At least for a normal success on the augment anyway.

[PhilHibbs]

42 minutes ago, Dragon said:

A decent idea, easy to remember. And a roll of 38 would succeed and leave a POW of 0 just like a 19. Would a roll of 39 be a success with POW reduced to 18, or a success with POW still reduced to 0?

The latter interpretation would make a critical success on the augment a very dangerous thing!

[soltakss]

6 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So if an initiate has a Devotion of 80%, you’re happy to give them an 80% chance of calling on DI?

Yeah, why not?

 

[Dr. Devici]

3 hours ago, Dragon said:

A decent idea, easy to remember. And a roll of 38 would succeed and leave a POW of 0 just like a 19. Would a roll of 39 be a success with POW reduced to 18, or a success with POW still reduced to 0?

Keep subtracting until it's inside of acceptable bounds was what I had in mind. So using the above scenario, a 39 would be subtracted from twice, and only cost you 1. A roll of 38 would land on 19 and leave you with 0 POW, so any multiple of your POW score is bad news for you.

Edited August 28, 2021 by Dr. Device

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

So if an initiate has a Devotion of 80%, you’re happy to give them an 80% chance of calling on DI?

Maybe add a penalty for non-Rune Lords.

[French Desperate WindChild]

I dislike the idea of using devotion to determine the loss or the success of the DI :

 

Devotion is (for me), like how much you "love"  your god but... that doesn't mean your deity loves you "enough" to do what you want. After all I loved some (few) women in my life, but I had (desperatly) to manage some refusals 😛 I hope I m not the exception in the system ^^

 

But yes the POW cost may be an issue. I have not tested anything about it but we may propose something like

you ask your god to do something like :

• a rune spell -> 1d6 loss
• an "extended" rune spell (extension = time, target numbers,... ) -> from 2d6 to 9d6
• something like "temporary breaking" the compromise --> 10+ d6

after all there is no reason to "burn" the holy priest's soul only because she asked for some divine light in this tunnel

In this case devotion may be used to "reduced" the cost  (as a god, if I accept the request, I reduce the price because it is a "good" worshiper) for example :

• success : -1d6 (aka if the cost is 3d6, it is 2d6;  minimum 1d6)
• special : -2d6 (minimum 1d3)
• critical : -3d6 (minimum 1)
• failure: +1d6
• fumble: +3d6

 

the only "rule" issue I see then is how a gm could define the cost of a specific request. Sorcery rules may give some idea

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

8 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Devotion is (for me), like how much you "love"  your god but... that doesn't mean your deity loves you "enough" to do what you want.

That's not how Gloranthan religion works. Call me a God-Learner, but the deity doesn't have any choice. You worship, you re-enact, you dedicate your life, you get the rewards. Another worshipper can intercede with magics like Ban but the deity can't just take a dislike to you for no reason.

It's fine to say that Devotion is not the right mechanic, that a passion doesn't translate into a conduit through which power can travel, but it's not because of any notions of non-reciprocity.

[French Desperate WindChild]

51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

That's not how Gloranthan religion works. Call me a God-Learner, but the deity doesn't have any choice. You worship, you re-enact, you dedicate your life, you get the rewards.

 

not sure, see the true story of the old temple in the sun county (for the names I have the french one, so not sure)

Is is said that Yelmalio refused the DI for all the runelords except one, the one who wanted to die in the sun county when the others wanted to be saved. Does that mean that all runelords had no devotion ?

[Martin Dick]

33 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not sure, see the true story of the old temple in the sun county (for the names I have the french one, so not sure)

Is is said that Yelmalio refused the DI for all the runelords except one, the one who wanted to die in the sun county when the others wanted to be saved. Does that mean that all runelords had no devotion ?

No, but I think it means they failed their Devotion roll

 

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is is said that Yelmalio refused the DI for all the runelords except one, the one who wanted to die in the sun county when the others wanted to be saved. Does that mean that all runelords had no devotion ?

No, it means the Rune Lords successfully called for Divine Intervention and Yelmalio refused their call.

It is a lesson that Divine Intervention does not always get answered, if you have done bad things.

One Storm Bull PC in out RQ2 Campaign used Divine Intervention to escape from a Chaos Temple where the party were being smashed. Storm Bull put him back in the middle of the fight and cast Berserker on him for good measure.

I also remember a Wind Lord using Divine Intervention to save his skin, leaving the fight. Soltak Stormspear was so incensed that he used Divine Intervention to bring his comrade back to the fight and Orlanth allowed it. Boy, the other chap was not happy at all.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I dislike the idea of using devotion to determine the loss or the success of the DI :

Devotion is (for me), like how much you "love"  your god but... that doesn't mean your deity loves you "enough" to do what you want.

I'm of the same mindset.  Piety (aka Devotion) does not necessarily contribute to your ability to call upon your god for their intervention.  There are plenty of pious people, and the god is happy to bring them to their halls for eternity where they can continue to sing their hymns and praises.  Those who have "become" their god, mastering the god's Runes and powers and channeling their energies are those the gods respond to.  Adding in a benefit for priests and Rune Lords through their unspent rune points makes sense.  Potentially I could see adding those in for favored initiates as well.

I also dislike the idea of multiple rolls to get to a Divine Intervention.  The call for Divine Intervention is the prayer to get the god's attention.  Having to roll an "augment" seems both awkward and counter to the idea.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Martin Dick said:

No, but I think it means they failed their Devotion roll

 

very unlucky guys then ! 10 ? 20 ? or more runelords, 1 success, ouch

but I think, for DI , our glorantha and how we manage it may vary :

that is both gameplay and roleplay mechanics and how we see the initiates power

the initiate takes the power of a "not conscious" (or at least "not enough conscious")  god then it is the (player)character who decides what happens (if the dices are ok) ==> it is a question of spell and magic

the initiate asks for the power of a "consicous" god then it is the god who decides what happens (if the dices are ok... or not )==> it is a question of prayer and religion.

and the cursor of each roleplay table is more or less between these two limites

 

of course personaly I prefer the second option, and it seems (at least to me) that it fits with the texts I understood, but that's true too that the first option fits too with the same texts (just the sun domers should change their dices 😛 )

A question of taste !