Illusory Substance

[HreshtIronBorne]

How much damage can you get out of a single point of illusion? Core rules suggest 1d3, Red Book of Magic says equivalent to whatever item you are illusioning. 

Would an Illusory Greatsword for 1 RP, invisible because it is just the substance, be able to do 2d8 damage and have a single Hit Point?

[Scotty]

8 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

How much damage can you get out of a single point of illusion?

Firstly use the Red Book of Magic as any updated spells will be in future updates to the Core Rules.

8 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Would an Illusory Greatsword for 1 RP, invisible because it is just the substance, be able to do 2d8 damage and have a single Hit Point?

It would have the full stats of a Greatsword as the intention is to make an illusion of one that would act as such. If it only had 1 hp it wouldn't be a great illusion.

I would suggest stacking it with a point of Illusory Sight so it looks good (fine finish, jewelled hilt, glints in the Sun, etc)

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Firstly use the Red Book of Magic as any updated spells will be in future updates to the Core Rules.

It would have the full stats of a Greatsword as the intention is to make an illusion of one that would act as such. If it only had 1 hp it wouldn't be a great illusion.

I would suggest stacking it with a point of Illusory Sight so it looks good (fine finish, jewelled hilt, glints in the Sun, etc)

Would an illusion of an iron Greatsword work as an iron one would? That is, is it "real" enough to do additional harm to elves and trolls?

Could an illusion (with enough Substance) of a barrel of gunpowder explode?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

The core rules, as with the previous edition (RQ3), say 1D6 per 2 points, so 6 points would give you 3D6 which is as close as you can get to 2D8. I'm a bit baffled why this was removed from the RBOM writeup!

Yes, according to the RBOM writeup you could do 2D8 with a 1 point illusory Greatsword. I think that's a bit overpowered. Maybe a greatsword weight more than 6 kilos, probably does come to think of it, so you'd need 2 points.

It would only have 2HP so it isn't going to last long if you parry or are parried with a better success level.

Also if you can't see it then I would apply a penalty to your attack skill, but a bigger penalty to the parry. I might also double your fumble chance.

Edited January 17, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[Dragon]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Maybe a greatsword weight more than 6 kilos, probably does come to think of it, so you'd need 2 points.

I am not familiar with the weight of bronze greatsword. In all the museums I have visited, bronze weapons displayed were generally shorter. But this isn't Glorantha and metals don't have exactly the same properties or limits.

That said, the vast majority of historical iron or steel greatswords I have seen were around 8 lb to 8lb 8 oz, so just under 4 kg of mass. Back in college a friend said that the weight listed in AD&D (version 1) was about right at 25 lbs. His evidence was that he toured West Point and saw one in a display case. He asked the student tour guide who said 'about 25 pounds'. I thought that was excessive. So I started checking into it in lots of history texts, catalogs of 'museum-quality' replicas, and museums. Nearly every single one I found from a legitimate source was under 4 kg. There were a couple outliers at 2 kg and 5 kg. And they were usually commented as outliers in the texts.

Moral of the story: don't trust student tour guides when you ask them something outside their training. Ask an expert (I do not count myself as an expert in sword metallurgy - I just recall what they said). There are lots of references the World Wide Web provides these days. Just check that the source should be reliable, e.g. The Metropolitan Museum of Art.

[PhilHibbs]

Yeah seems I was wrong, 1 point should be plenty for a greatsword. I was just imagining 6 bags of sugar taped end to end and thought, "greatsword probably a little more than that".

[Baron Wulfraed]

56 minutes ago, Dragon said:

That said, the vast majority of historical iron or steel greatswords I have seen were around 8 lb to 8lb 8 oz, so just under 4 kg of mass. Back in college a friend said that the weight listed in AD&D (version 1) was about right at 25 lbs. His evidence was that he toured West Point and saw one in a display case. He asked the student tour guide who said 'about 25 pounds'. I thought that was excessive. So I started checking into it in lots of history texts, catalogs of 'museum-quality' replicas, and museums. Nearly every single one I found from a legitimate source was under 4 kg. There were a couple outliers at 2 kg and 5 kg. And they were usually commented as outliers in the texts.

Can't speak to bronze (real or fantasy) but a rough rule of thumb for steel swords would be around 1lb per foot, and then vary +/- to account for stylistic differences (a Musketeer rapier being about 1/3 to 1/4 the width of prior generation broadsword so may run 1/3 the weight; cinquadea (sp?) has such a wide base that it may weigh higher...). On that basis a greatsword may start around 5-6lbs, but then moderate a bit upward to allow for really long cross-guards and massive pommel to balance out the length.

[Scotty]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Would an illusion of an iron Greatsword work as an iron one would? That is, is it "real" enough to do additional harm to elves and trolls?

Yes, it's real until the spell ends.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Could an illusion (with enough Substance) of a barrel of gunpowder explode?

No. You'd have been wiped out by either gobblers (real) or illusionary iron dwarf terminators that are free to the GM with gunpowder illusions.

[French Desperate WindChild]

i m just thinking options, but I m not sure if it is possible :

 

hallucinate substance 1SIZ of rock directly to the head of your ennemy.. (not throwing, just wrapping) do you expect a death by suffocation ?

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i m just thinking options, but I m not sure if it is possible :

hallucinate substance 1SIZ of rock directly to the head of your ennemy.. (not throwing, just wrapping) do you expect a death by suffocation ?

No, the rock is only real to the caster. The enemy is entirely unaware of its existence, unless you are in some kind of mind link with them. That is, assuming you are using the “hallucinate” spell. If it’s regular Illusion then yes, I guess you could encase someone’s head, but it only has 1hp so it’s easy to tear off.

Edited January 18, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[HreshtIronBorne]

Illusions are suddenly kinda freaking rad and whacky rather than woefully underpowered and nigh unusable. 

 

Now we can have all of the whacky Wile E.  Coyote/ Tom and Jerry style, slapstick nonsense we can think up. You can now pretty much whip an anvil out of your back pocket and drop it on someone's head from great height. 

 

Also, this enables the sort of Deadpool/Batman style Super Hero Power of having pockets containing anything and everything a situation could call for. I absolutely love that for Eurmal and other Illusion Gods. Makes them way more interesting in adventuring.

 

I can now see why Eurmali are in high demand for HeroQuesting! Swiss Army Scapegoat! Lolol

Edited January 19, 2022 by HreshtIronBorne
I a word

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Now we can have all of the whacky Wile E.  Coyote/ Tom and Jerry style, slapstick nonsense we can think up. You can now pretty whip an anvil out of your back pocket it and drop it on someone's head from great height. 

You just discovered why the game I GM'ed most is Toon, and why I dislike GM'ing (but like playing) RQ.

[g33k]

16 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i m just thinking options, but I m not sure if it is possible :

 

hallucinate substance 1SIZ of rock directly to the head of your ennemy.. (not throwing, just wrapping) do you expect a death by suffocation ?

Hallucinated objects are only "real" to the caster; they don't affect other people.

For the more general "illusion" magic, suffocation is indeed possible if you actually cut off their air; I wouldn't think "rock" for that, however!
 Maybe water, e.g. a (full) waterskin tied around their neck, head in the bag...

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:45 PM, PhilHibbs said:

No, the rock is only real to the caster. The enemy is entirely unaware of its existence

 

On 1/19/2022 at 4:10 AM, g33k said:

Hallucinated objects are only "real" to the caster; they don't affect other people.

sorry I made a confusion, see "illusory substance", not "hallucinate substance"

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/18/2022 at 9:45 PM, PhilHibbs said:

No, the rock is only real to the caster.

Note that this doesn’t work even with Illusion. You need to add Motion to get movement - without that, the illusion doesn’t move, even when it ”naturally” would. You could simulate a falling rock by adding Motion, but the speed it could ”fall” at would be limited by the amount of Motion you put in.

Edited January 24, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[HreshtIronBorne]

If an illusion is cast upon an already-moving object, the illusion moves with the object. A sound illusion cast upon 
a noisy target masks contradicting noises, and the same is true with contradicting tastes, smells, sights, etc. The follow-
ing table suggests some standards for sense-related illusions:

From the Red Book of Magic Grey Box on Illusions PG. 59.

 

This means the Eurmali could just drop a coin or small stone out of a pouch and turn it into an anvil on the way down from the top of the building, right? 

 

My main point with the reformulation of Illusory Substance is that you need way less points to create a more realistic Illusion than the old writeup in the core rules. If you spent all your RP on one mega illusion to save the party you could actually do something pretty awesome now!

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Note that this doesn’t work even with Illusion. You need to add Motion to get movement - without that, the illusion doesn’t move, even when it ”naturally” would. You could simulate a falling rock by adding Motion, but the speed it could ”fall” at would be limited by the amount of Motion you put in.

note that I was not thinking about a projectile but about the rock created directly around the target head.

one instant and you have your head "in" a rock. as it is a substance, if you move there are 2 options:

1) the rock moves with your head (but you are  not able to breath)

2) the rocks doesn't move and your head has ...like a problem... to follow your body (and you are not able to breath too)

 

or I miss something.

My concern in fact is that an illusion (a weapon but in fact just... "a good idea" ) can make damage.

no issue with the concept of damage, but issue with the amount proposed (thanks @PhilHibbs   to offer me this nightmare) : it is not based on the spell, but on the illusion (the character idea) : 1 rune point can kill someone with 40hp.. 60hp.. 100 hp ?  you may find more efficient illusions  than a great sword

 

Spoiler

Imagine Glorantha 40k, when the malkioni invents atomic bomb... 1 RP would kill how many people ?

 

edit: an idea l just get. What if the damage, death, etc.. were "canceled" at the end of the spell ?

your head is no more on your body because the illusion doesn't move, and x minutes later, it is again and there is no more rock !

 a good joke (or not) but a joke

maybe you are confused, ko, with a new passion,  or I don't know, but no definitive damage. It would solve the issue

Edited January 25, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[g33k]

42 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

...

edit: an idea l just get. What if the damage, death, etc.. were "canceled" at the end of the spell ?

An Illusion is not "illusory" in the D&D sense.  It is "temporary reality."
So, it CAN kill.
This is as per the original intent.

[French Desperate WindChild]

25 minutes ago, g33k said:

An Illusion is not "illusory" in the D&D sense.  It is "temporary reality."
So, it CAN kill.
This is as per the original intent.

yes I understand that, the point is the balance of this spell (I know, balance and rqg...)

note that my option doesn't refute "temporary reality" : So, it CAN temporary kill. aka a shaman can see the soul of the target like she can see the soul of any just dead people. but at the end of the spell the soul is now back, etc... even the second sight of the shaman is tricked

my point is the temporary reality creates a definitive reality, so the spell seems to me too awesome.

with a smart illusion creating a "chain" of temporary realities, you keep the intent: create an illusion.

If not, why not call the spell "summon substance" (like in The Chronicles of Amber)

 

 

 

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Isn't the material world of Glorantha an Illusion? At least according to some of the inhabitants of Glorantha? If EVERYTHING is an illusion and you cannot disbelieve it and you still eat, sleep, and die, then I don't see why illusion being temporary reality is aby weirder than say, summoning elementals, throwing lightning bolts, calling clouds, or making rain. 

[Joerg]

Creating or summoning a substance on the body part of a target will need to overcome the target's POW and any Countermagic effect the target has up. Likewise summoning an elemental or comparable entity.

Does the illusion have to specify the material, or are there restrictions to what material can be summoned as temporary reality? Why choose stone when you can have unenchanted iron? Why assume that an illusionary substance behaves like a single permanent substance all the time?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Does the illusion have to specify the material, or are there restrictions to what material can be summoned as temporary reality? Why choose stone when you can have unenchanted iron? Why assume that an illusionary substance behaves like a single permanent substance all the time?

I imagine that if you don’t specific a material, you get some kind of ”default” option. When I asked, got a yes on (unenchanted) Iron, no on gunpowder. Presumably you can’t generate magic, so I imagine enchanted iron is out. Poison is explicitly in (weirdly, without even requiring Substance), and reasonably you can make acid, limited by Substance level. I personally think Antivenom should be symmetrical with Poison, which would make Hallucinated antivenom super useful. I would certainly allow Illusory and Hallucinary Hazia, which certainly offers options. Will illusory food with Substance nourish? What if it’s extended to 24 hours?

I imagine you could make trolls really unhappy with 5 kg worth of very fine iron filings that you can move around at will…

Will an illusory fire (with Substance) ignite other stuff? Presumably yes? How much fire is 5 kg, for that matter? If the illusion does the amount of damage the real thing would, then an illusory raging inferno should be exceptionally powerful (this would have been quite limited in the base game rules).

Edited January 26, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Bill the barbarian]

On 1/18/2022 at 1:58 PM, HreshtIronBorne said:

Also, this enables the sort of Deadpool/Batman style Super Hero Power of having pockets containing anything and everything a situation could call for

Are those bowling balls in your pockets or are you just happy to see me?

[Dragon]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

I imagine that if you don’t specific a material, you get some kind of ”default” option. When I asked, got a yes on (unenchanted) Iron, no on gunpowder. Presumably you can’t generate magic, so I imagine enchanted iron is out. Poison is explicitly in (weirdly, without even requiring Substance), and reasonably you can make acid, limited by Substance level. I personally think Antivenom should be symmetrical with Poison, which would make Hallucinated antivenom super useful. I would certainly allow Illusory and Hallucinary Hazia, which certainly offers options. Will illusory food with Substance nourish? What if it’s extended to 24 hours?

I imagine you could make trolls really unhappy with 5 kg worth of very fine iron filings that you can move around at will…

Agreed. If you could generate magic, Illusory Substance a small item with a Lightning 20 matrix on it. Nope, not going to happen. On the other hand, if someone had an enchanted iron broadsword back in the inn, I might let them Illusory Substance that particular sword for its normal effects while they are in a prison cell.

Would an Illusory cloud of poison (e.g. Walktapi gas) be Illusory Taste or Illusory Smell. Illusory Smell states POT 4 forces a CON x2 or nausea. But allowing a gas cloud that inflicts 1D6 per point of potency may work as well. With Taste, the victim needs to consume it. With Smell, the victim can avoid it by not breathing, e.g. asphyxiation rules. Without Illusory Motion, the cloud won't chase them.

I agree that Antivenom (Antivenin) is quite possible and super useful. You can match the antidote to the opponent's venom/poison rather than hoping for half effectiveness.

Illusory food eaten within the duration should nourish. The people of Glorantha don't understand digestion fully.

I would GM that if your character is completely unfamiliar with a substance, you cannot properly make it via Illusory spells. Like Gunpowder, radio, or a cloud of iron filings. Depends on the justification given.

Lots to think about, but it all comes down to if the GM allows.

[g33k]

6 hours ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Isn't the material world of Glorantha an Illusion? At least according to some of the inhabitants of Glorantha?

That's from the folks who already are deep into Illusion-Rune theology, though... Three Bean Circus, IIRC.