Drive chariot vs. Ride

[Bren]

Characters who fight while mounted are limited to the lesser their weapon skill and their Ride skill. This has the effect of deterring poor riders from fighting mounted -- as it should. With chariots a character (other than the charioteer) is limited to the lesser of their weapon skill or the charioteer's Drive skill. By the rules, the Drive chariot skill of the passenger is irrelevant. With a skilled charioteer, a passenger who has never even once ridden in a chariot is able to use their weapon skills at or nearly at their full ability. But put that same warrior on a trained mount (cavalry or war mount) and suddenly the warrior is nearly incompetent with their weapons. That seems odd to me -- and by odd I mean wrong. Standing upright in a bouncing, swerving chariot while using both hands to shoot a bow or to hold a shield and throw a javelin seems to me like it would be a lot more difficult than trying to perform the same tasks while standing on solid ground...even if the driver is the charioteer equivalent of Mario Andretti.

It's more reasonable if an experienced chariot warrior is better at fighting from a chariot than an inexperienced warrior. I don't think this requires a separate skill for Ride (as opposed to Drive) chariot. Also, I can see an argument for the charioteer's Drive skill being more crucial than the Drive skill of the passenger/warrior. 

So what I'm going to do is to limit the passenger's attacks and parries to the lowest:

1. The passenger's weapon skill
2. The charioteer's Drive skill
3. The average of the Drive skills of the charioteer and the passenger

This prioritizes the Drive skill of the charioteer, while making the Drive skill of the passenger matter, but it is of lesser importance.

Thoughts?

[Akhôrahil]

49 minutes ago, Bren said:

Thoughts?

One argument here might be that while it’s surely better to be used to fighting from a chariot, it might be below the level of granularity of the RQ rules. And further, that while a charioteer is likely to be good at his craft, it’s a less likely skill for most warriors to pick up. Basically, if you use this rule, most people would be better served by avoiding chariots unless they’re the very rare specialist. That the charioteer gets to take the skill responsibility is part of what makes the profession work out.

It might be easier to just make the passenger take either a Dex x5 or Drive Chariot roll when something bad happens.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Bren]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

One argument here might be that while it’s surely better to be used to fighting from a chariot, it might be below the level of granularity of the RQ rules. And further, that while a charioteer is likely to be good at his craft, it’s a less likely skill for most warriors to pick up. Basically, if you use this rule, most people would be better served by avoiding chariots unless they’re the very rare specialist.

The designers may well agree with your argument. (I haven't ever seen an explanation for that design decision, though I'd be interested in what the thought was.) But my  counter argument would be that the Ride skill already includes that level of granularity. With the current rules, the Drive skill operates as if riding in a chariot across a field is like riding in an enclosed automobile down a highway. Easy-peasy. I think a better analogy would be standing up in the bed of a pickup truck driving at speed across a pasture without holding on with either hand. I'm sure it can be done, but I don't think it would be easy-peasy and I think my ability to hit something with a thrown object or an arrow would be negatively affected.

The existing rules for the Ride skill means that people who aren't good riders dismount to fight. That doesn't prevent people from using horses (or other mounts) for transport. So rather than most people avoiding chariots, I think what we'd end up with is most people who aren't used to Driving chariots would be better served by dismounting to fight like the warriors in Homer's Iliad. They would use the chariots as a way of getting to the battle or retreating from the battle. I think that's in keeping with the way Orlanthi in Sartar are described as using chariots.

And even with my proposed change, the charioteer's skill still matters in negotiating obstacles on the way to a battle, in escaping a battle, and in other situations of chase or pursuit. Averaging the skill of the passenger and driver means that a good charioteer allows an unskilled person a better chance to use their weapons from a chariot car than from a riding animal. The chariot also allows a caster-passenger to maintain an active spell. I think those are sufficient reasons for some people to use a chariot and to hire a charioteer while explaining why most people don't go to the expanse and why, in general, mounted cavalry supplants chariotry in Glorantha, just as it did in our world.

If one feels that my change is too harsh, a compromise between the existing rules and what I proposed would be to allow the passenger to use the charioteer's Drive skill so long as they hang on with at least one hand. That provides some justification for how an untrained person is standing upright while it would prevent the use of bows and force the passenger to choose between using a weapon or a shield. That way there would be some benefit for a skilled passenger over an untrained one when fighting from a chariot.

  

59 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It might be easier to just make the passenger take either a Dex x5 or Drive Chariot roll when something bad happens.

I'd do that anyway just as I would for something bad happening when on a riding animal.

Edited January 29, 2022 by Bren

[Mechashef]

If someone is fighting on a raft do you limit their skill to their boat skill?

If someone is fighting on a ship in rough sea conditions do you limit their skill to their ship handling skill because the waves are moving the ship?

 

Or would you get them to do a DEX test every so often, or perhaps limit their combat skill to DEX X 5 or some other modifier due to the unstable environment?

 

If the charioteer, or someone paddling the raft, or someone actively controlling the ship participates in combat while controlling their vehicles then I would limit their combat skill to their appropriate vehicle skill (and require a skill test under some conditions), but not so for passengers.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

... But my  counter argument would be that the Ride skill already includes that level of granularity ...

Not exactly; the rule is a general one, for combining skills.  Want to climb a wall, quietly?  Roll the lower of Climb skill or Move Quietly skill.
 

What you are proposing is a whole new rule specific to the case of combat from within a Chariot.
Now, in principle I kinda agree with your argument(s)...  But honestly:  in principle I *also* have a dislike for the proliferation of unique "special case" rules; I dislike that a lot.

Therefore, I rather like the use of a DEX roll here; but how about using a VARIABLE roll?

• Straight smooth road?  DEX*5
• Smooth curve, or straight with minor bumps?  DEX*4
• Bumpy AND curvy, or a lot of either?  DEX*3
• etc...

The advantage, to me, is that this relies more on existing principles of existing rules, not a unique special case.

[Shiningbrow]

I think the problem here is simply not applying appropriate modifiers.

As mentioned above, you don't modify the roll while on a raft or boat... Unless the water is choppy or there's a storm.

So, I suggest - while the chariot isn't moving, no penalties at all, and base weapon skill. When it starts to move, chariot driver's skill.  And when it hits bad ground, terrain penalties (plus Dex rolls just to stay upright), such as the modifiers for the chariot driver listed on p221 - cumulatively. (NB, mounts don't need to have this penalty as they can simply avoid those obstacles... Although, I'd still introduce them anyway)

In view of this, introduce a new skill for chariot missile weapons, similar to Kuschile archery.

[Joerg]

Looking at p.221, is the driver's skill rating the effective upper limit of the combatant, or is the modified driver's skill (depending on that melee round's ground situation) the limit?

I am not at all a fan of adding skills to the already way too numerous skills on the regular character sheet. If anything, I would assign a temporary penalty to the skill cap which can be overcome by experience doing stuff while on a chariot.

[David Scott]

13 hours ago, Bren said:

Standing upright in a bouncing, swerving chariot while using both hands to shoot a bow

The Driver only has to roll if on bumpy ground or worse, otherwise chariots would be pointless. If you read the chariot driver occupation, they are going to be good. It looks like a real vocational job and they start at 45%+any agility bonus they have (if they start as an initiate of Mastakos too, they get an extra +20%). In use, they will likely use an augment -  movement, storm, etc. Those who are Mastakos initiates will want to have a DEX of 16+ so as to qualify as a Rune priest - charioteers are highly skilled.

Also remember that chariots are spell and missile platforms, so the three people are the driver, and like the missile/spell caster and a bodyguard (page 211). I can't really see shields being used except in a defensive move then dropped. For me, I view the occupants as all standing on a large skateboard, well balanced and well able to do crazy stuff like shoot arrows and spells. Perhaps @M Helsdon could comment on chariot occupant tactics.

Personally I think the rules are good enough as is.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Looking at p.221, is the driver's skill rating the effective upper limit of the combatant, or is the modified driver's skill (depending on that melee round's ground situation) the limit?

The ground does not modify the driver's skill, it modifies the driver roll to avoid taking damage to the Chariot.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Also remember that chariots are spell and missile platforms, so the three people are the driver, and like the missile/spell caster and a bodyguard (page 211). I can't really see shields being used except in a defensive move then dropped. For me, I view the occupants as all standing on a large skateboard, well balanced and well able to do crazy stuff like shoot arrows and spells. Perhaps @M Helsdon could comment on chariot occupant tactics.

Historically, there were two basic types of chariot: one carrying the driver and fighter, and a heavier version carrying a driver, fighter, and one, rarely two shield-bearers whose job would be to defend the driver and fighter. The fighter was often an archer, sometimes a javelineer, rarely equipped with a long spear. Whilst some chariots had basic suspension, in the form of a base of woven leather straps, they were very prone to the effects of terrain. Where a mounted archer or javelin-thrower is familiar with the pace of their mount, and times their shot accordingly, anyone using weapons from a chariot is very susceptible to the unpredictable ride of the chariot over the terrain - they are reliant upon the driver keeping the ride as smooth as possible and their skill in avoiding rough ground. This is why in some cases, whilst the missile user often shot from the vehicle, there were instances when they dismounted to most effectively use their bow or throw their javelin. There's also some evidence from India of the archer having two bows - a smaller one employed as a passenger, and a larger one when dismounted.

So whilst the missile user would have trained to shoot from a chariot in motion, they were reliant upon the skill of the driver, and in a very different situation to a mounted fighter. In most armies, the driver and the missile user were a team who trained and fought together. The missile user may know how to drive a chariot but that only becomes relevant if the driver is dead or disabled, and they have to take the reins; it doesn't help them use their weapons. The missile user is familiar with shooting or throwing from the chariot. If a noble has a chariot, they will be used to being a fighting passenger.

So historically, horse archers had numerous advantages to the chariot archer - for one potentially double the number of fighters, but most importantly, when the regular motion of the horse is taken into account, a much more stable and predictable 'fighting platform'. 

A further matter to bear in mind is that as missile platforms, chariots were used in two ways: as massed missile platforms where accuracy wasn't as important; as single vehicles used in hunting, often lions.

Magic - well, casting magic is very different to using a bow or throwing a javelin, and the targeting would be very different.

I've only ever ridden in a vehicle resembling a chariot once, and even over smooth ground it wasn't a smooth ride. My feeling is that the existing rules are a sufficient emulation... Adding two skill scores to reflect ordinary use of the weapon, and its use on a chariot seems overly complex as anyone fighting from one is used to doing so.

Edited January 30, 2022 by M Helsdon

[M Helsdon]

I'll also take this opportunity for blatant advertising - lots about chariots and using weapons mounted in Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass.... 

 

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass?src=hottest_filtered

Edited January 30, 2022 by M Helsdon

[Bren]

I'm surprised at how many people (almost everyone it seems) thinks there is no need for a skill for the chariot rider who is fighting from a chariot. But I'm enjoying seeing how different people analyze the situation. Thanks everybody.

 

On 1/29/2022 at 8:08 PM, Mechashef said:

If someone is fighting on a raft do you limit their skill to their boat skill?

If someone is fighting on a ship in rough sea conditions do you limit their skill to their ship handling skill because the waves are moving the ship?

It would depend on how much motion is occurring. But in your second example doing that makes some sense. People unfamiliar with a ship in a rough sea may be lucky not to go over the side, much less accurately fire an arrow. People who are very familiar with ships would be both safer and better able to account for the effect of the waves and the roll of the ship.

I don't like using a DEX roll as that completely ignores training and practice in favor of base ability. A noble with an average DEX who has spent years practicing fighting from a chariot ought to be better at fighting from a moving chariot than a noble with an above average DEX who has never even ridden in a chariot.

Another alternative would be to use a disadvantage mechanic (roll twice take the worse roll) for someone who isn't experienced. It's not something RQG uses, though I think the latest version of Call of Cthulhu does and of course there are numerous other systems that do. Pro: It's mechanically simple to implement. Con: It can only model a binary outcome of is or is not experienced, which loses the greater range of outcomes available with the D100 skill system.

On 1/29/2022 at 8:29 PM, g33k said:

Not exactly; the rule is a general one, for combining skills.  Want to climb a wall, quietly?  Roll the lower of Climb skill or Move Quietly skill.
 

What you are proposing is a whole new rule specific to the case of combat from within a Chariot.

Not a whole new rule, what I'm proposing is that fighting from a chariot should be similar to fighting from horseback in that degree of familiarity with the mode of transport should effect one's fighting ability. What I see as missing from the Drive skill and current rules is a method of differentiating the ability of a practiced and accomplished chariot rider from an inexperienced rider when fighting from a chariot. Using the Drive chariot skill as a proxy for training and practice for the chariot rider isn't a perfect solution. However it does have the virtues of not introducing a second skill like Ride Chariot while allowing us to differentiate the abilities of an experienced rider from a novice. I'm certainly open to other ideas.

 

On 1/29/2022 at 10:52 PM, Shiningbrow said:

I think the problem here is simply not applying appropriate modifiers.

As mentioned above, you don't modify the roll while on a raft or boat... Unless the water is choppy or there's a storm.

So, I suggest - while the chariot isn't moving, no penalties at all, and base weapon skill. When it starts to move, chariot driver's skill.  And when it hits bad ground, terrain penalties (plus Dex rolls just to stay upright), such as the modifiers for the chariot driver listed on p221 - cumulatively. (NB, mounts don't need to have this penalty as they can simply avoid those obstacles... Although, I'd still introduce them anyway)

In view of this, introduce a new skill for chariot missile weapons, similar to Kuschile archery.

Modifiers could be used. But that creates a different case for riding chariots than we already have for riding horses, bison, sables, etc.

We could create a chariot archery skill, but I don't want to end up with a Chariot version of each weapon skill and it seems difficult to argue that archery needs a separate skill, but throwing a javelin or using a lance or spear does not.

 

 

21 hours ago, David Scott said:

The Driver only has to roll if on bumpy ground or worse, otherwise chariots would be pointless.

Yes, you don't roll every round just like you don't make a riding roll every round, only if the situation is unusual like a rider trying to fight from an untrained mount, jumping an obstacle, etc.

 

16 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I'll also take this opportunity for blatant advertising - lots about chariots and using weapons mounted in Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass.... 

 

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/296535/The-Armies-and-Enemies-of-Dragon-Pass?src=hottest_filtered

I already have my copy and I am very pleased with it. This quote from p. 19 very nicely states why I think the current rule that ignores the skill of the chariot rider is lacking when the chariot is used for combat rather than just for transport.

Quote

 

Driving or riding in a chariot is no easy task, requiring training and practice.

The driver must be accomplished at handling and controlling the animals; both the driver and passengers must keep their balance and brace for turns and jolts. Chariot archers must be especially proficient, setting and shooting arrows accurately from a bouncing and swerving platform. Warriors using javelins and spears from a moving chariot must be only slightly less accomplished.

Regular and rigorous training and drill is essential. A close bond develops between a charioteer and their team, which is essential for their performance on the battlefield.

 

Martin, I'd be interested in any thoughts you might have and whether you've created any house rules to better model fighting from a chariot in RQ.

[M Helsdon]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

I already have my copy and I am very pleased with it. This quote from p. 19 very nicely states why I think the current rule that ignores the skill of the chariot rider is lacking when the chariot is used for combat rather than just for transport.

As noted above, anyone riding and fighting from a chariot is going to be experienced in doing it - if a noble has a chariot then doing so will be an innate ability. I wasn't writing a rules system, which is a very different proposition.

2 hours ago, Bren said:

I'd be interested in any thoughts you might have and whether you've created any house rules to better model fighting from a chariot in RQ.

No, in part because I believe it isn't really necessary.

Chariot fighting isn't really a focus of the game system, as they will often be used as battle taxis, and it's so minor an aspect, that if you detailed chariot fighting, then many other things would deserve more detail. For example, shiphandling. There comes a point where you'd end up with volumes of rules, and I believe there's a point where the GM has to moderate between the rules as written, and what they and their players want to do.

At most, I would rule that if someone who had never trained and fought from a chariot stepped into one and attempted to do so, their skills might be unchanged, but they might need a DEX roll to do so successfully, the multiplier depending on conditions, and a fumble sees them tumbling out of the back of the chariot.

Would I add that to the RQ rules? No. Keep things simple.

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

At most, I would rule that if someone who had never trained and fought from a chariot stepped into one and attempted to do so, their skills might be unchanged, but they might need a DEX roll to do so successfully, the multiplier depending on conditions, and a fumble sees them tumbling out of the back of the chariot.

Would I add that to the RQ rules? No. Keep things simple.

This is something I run as a house-rule for a lot of stuff - that "basic familiarity" is something that can be required but also be achieved ad hoc. That valley where they speak a really weird dialect? Penalty to your Language skill until you have grown accustomed to it (in some days or weeks). Fighting from a chariot when you don't even have basic training for it? The kind of penalty you mention, until they have tried it a few times or had a crash course. Practicing your Craft skill in a different culture's workshop? Takes a little while to get familiar with the tools and process. This weirdly designed battle-axe? Practice with it for a few days to get familiarized.

These things then don't boil up to the level of full rules. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Soccercalle]

I would probably have the players make a DEX roll. If they fail I will give them -20 in their weapons skill. It can be DEXx5 if the chariot is going on normal ground and lower if it on bumpy ground.

[Akhôrahil]

30 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

I would probably have the players make a DEX roll. If they fail I will give them -20 in their weapons skill. It can be DEXx5 if the chariot is going on normal ground and lower if it on bumpy ground.

Something that can be fun to do is "Forced Augment" - when you're in a situation where a secondary skill is unavoidable, the player must make an Augment roll (such as moving both unseen and silently, or in this case, a Forced Augment with Drive Chariot). This can also be useful in a group situation - you're sneaking up on something, and you have the sneaky guy in charge of it, but everyone else has to see if they're a help or a hindrance by using a Forced Augment.

For the chariot, I would likely only call for this if the situation is particularly interesting, difficult or problematic.

Edited January 31, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

in any case I would not use the chariot driving skill for the fight. Driving a chariot is to drive the horse(s)  (or other beast) ,  plan the path and avoiding issues, finding a good place to give the best opportunities to the fighter (aka reduce any penalty to the fighter combat skill). and of course manage the beasts and the chariot gear.

that is a big difference with the mounted warrior --> the riding skill is used because the warrior is riding.

 

If you want to add some restriction to the fighter it could be the generic dex x 5 or a specific skill "fight on a chariot"

Personaly I consider that the charioteer skill (reduce any penalty to the fighter combat skill) is enough (aka I follow the rules)

 

Edited January 31, 2022 by French Desperate WindChild

[g33k]

13 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

... and a fumble sees them tumbling out of the back of the chariot.

Or hitting (one of) the draft-animal(s) pulling the chariot ...  Or the charioteer himself...
But, I can be cruel that way.  😉

 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Or hitting (one of) the draft-animal(s) pulling the chariot ...  Or the charioteer himself...
But, I can be cruel that way.  😉

 

I think that's more than reasonable... A sudden lurch, swerve or bump will make that far more than possible!  Fumble Table FTW 

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is something I run as a house-rule for a lot of stuff - that "basic familiarity" is something that can be required but also be achieved ad hoc. That valley where they speak a really weird dialect? Penalty to your Language skill until you have grown accustomed to it (in some days or weeks). Fighting from a chariot when you don't even have basic training for it? The kind of penalty you mention, until they have tried it a few times or had a crash course. Practicing your Craft skill in a different culture's workshop? Takes a little while to get familiar with the tools and process. This weirdly designed battle-axe? Practice with it for a few days to get familiarized.

These things then don't boil up to the level of full rules. 

Actually, something like this.

The Speak Language skill has points with related benefits, such that (e.g.) at 50% or higher, you don't need a roll. And the regional dialect situation would be a simple penalty.

The same could be applied here for getting used to fighting from a chariot - once you've hit 50%, you're presumed proficient enough to be able to hold on well enough, and then rely purely in the charioteer's drive skill.

Given we have Ride Chariot as a skill, I think it works already with the current rules.

 

Q: why don't the Drive Chariot rules include Scan rolls for obstacles?

Q2: does the Mastakos cult have Scan as a character creation cult skill? (I'm presuming that the GaGoG will have these skills highlighted for each cult...)

Edited February 1, 2022 by Shiningbrow

[Darius West]

On 1/30/2022 at 8:03 AM, Bren said:

It's more reasonable if an experienced chariot warrior is better at fighting from a chariot than an inexperienced warrior. I don't think this requires a separate skill for Ride (as opposed to Drive) chariot. Also, I can see an argument for the charioteer's Drive skill being more crucial than the Drive skill of the passenger/warrior. 

So what I'm going to do is to limit the passenger's attacks and parries to the lowest:

1. The passenger's weapon skill
2. The charioteer's Drive skill
3. The average of the Drive skills of the charioteer and the passenger

This prioritizes the Drive skill of the charioteer, while making the Drive skill of the passenger matter, but it is of lesser importance.

Thoughts?

I draw your attention to pages 213-214 of RQG; specifically 'shooting at moving targets' and 'shooting while moving'.  The present rules for chariots only cover the "shooting while moving" portion of that, and remember also that the charioteer is subject to the Obstacles Table on page 221 that will penalize their skill, and thus also penalize their passenger's ability to fight from chariots.  All-in-all, I think the rules are pretty great in this respect.