Pavis & Big Rubble Companion: The Directors' Cut Relaunch

[Akhôrahil]

On 8/8/2023 at 6:48 PM, AlHazred said:

Pardon the question, but would there be any QuestWorlds addendums being produced? Like a conversion document? I rather expect the answer will be "No," but it never hurts to ask!

You don't really need conversions to QuestWorlds, IMO. Maybe a few lines for the cults, but that's about it, and even this could be quite easily improvised. QW is super light-weight when it comes to stats in need of publishing.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Khaghan]

I'm starting to sketch out a Prax/New Pavis/Big Rubble campaign that will start just prior to the Lunar conquest in 1610 and in going over the available material there's a question that's come up - do we know what were the original lands of Dorasar's clan in the Pavis County region before the Lunars eliminated them?  We have the boundaries of the Garhound Clan's lands (between the Zola Fel River in the west, the White Rock River in the south, the Scritha River in the north, and the escarpment in the east), the Indagos lands (centered on the village of Indagos along the Scritha River), the Bullford Clan (centered on the village of Bullford northwest of New Pavis along the River of Cradles), and the Althimandi Clan (scattered along the Scritha River and into the East Scritha Steppe), but I haven't found anything actually laying out what lands/villages were under the control of Dorasar's clan.  My working assumption is that they were the lands closest in around the city of New Pavis, but I haven't found that nailed down anywhere.  Also, and relatedly, the Patroma family of Lunar carpetbaggers are mentioned to "rule most of the former holdings of the zebra people", which I assume would have been the lands given to Olgkarth of the Pavis Survivors by Dorasar.  Is this just Zebraside in the Big Rubble, or would there have been another chunk of Pavis County under their rule before the Lunar occupation?  Not a huge deal if I have to sketch those details in myself, but if they're actually laid out somewhere and somebody could point me in their direction, that would be appreciated.

[Erol of Backford]

On 8/19/2023 at 1:09 AM, Khaghan said:

I'm starting to sketch out a Prax/New Pavis/Big Rubble campaign that will start just prior to the Lunar conquest in 1610 and in going over the available material there's a question that's come up - do we know what were the original lands of Dorasar's clan in the Pavis County region before the Lunars eliminated them?

We are also interested, good questions... we are starting in 1600 and so this is perfect.

A few other Pavis questions, what year is the Shadows of Pavis based 1613?

What year was "old" Pavis actually completed, guessing like 850 or 855? Twenty or so years would seem normal/minimal to finish such a massive project?

Additionally are there will there be scenarios that link us or take one north and west of Pavis, say Where the Rock Speaks or Indagos possibly?

Lastly the first release is at electrum now. Is there any update on when it might be POD?

Thank you Mr. Thomson!

[AndreasDavour]

I might as well add that I'm also interested in the questions Khaghan raise, if anyone knows anything more.

Edited August 22, 2023 by AndreasDavour

[Graeme P]

To answer Errol's query re the founding of Pavis:

• 720 the God Learners came and built Feroda
• 780 God Learners built RobCradle
• 800 giants and nomads curshed RobCradle
• 830 Pavis and the Faceless Statue came and took over the orignal Pavis (now the Big Rubble)
• about 850 Pavis decreed that the city was constructed enough that the dwarves didn't have to help any more
• 860 Pavis retires permanently to his palace (which might be a euphemism for his apotheosis).

All drawn from the Guide to Glorantha and Pavis: GtA.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Graeme P

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Graeme P said:

...

• 860 Pavis retires permanently to his palace (which might be a euphemism for his apotheosis).

...

Kinda both, I think.  And more.

I rather like Ian's (and 90's-Greg) "Pavis Plan" -- to join disparate Man-Rune peoples into a hybrid, that would "perfect" the Man-Rune.

IMG, the Dwarves were very keen on getting a "pure" Man-Rune, and backed the Pavis Plan because purified materials are necessary to the repair of the World Machine.

The Crystal Palace was a Dwarf-made stasis-trap, intended to capture the purified Man-Rune for their use; Pavis "fell into" the trap, but was rather more than they expected and so isn't entirely entrapped.

YGWV

[Ian A. Thomson]

Pavis & the Big Rubble: The Good, the Bad & the Rowdy (1620 ST)

Vol. 04 is taking shape a little faster than previous volumes due to a lesser percentage of new material to be written, reducing speculated workload from many many weeks, to just many weeks :)

HUGE gratitude once again to the volunteer/collaborators who have stepped up to assist what would otherwise be an impossible task!!! :)

If you read this and might have an hour or two to spare for some basic proofing/reviewing work from an 'interested/informed reader' perspective please drop me a line. All supporters will be credited in the book on which they help, and anyone with time to do a bunch of support work can of course have a free copy when it's done

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 8/19/2023 at 4:09 PM, Khaghan said:

 My working assumption is that they were the lands closest in around the city of New Pavis, but I haven't found that nailed down anywhere.

That makes sense to me

On 8/19/2023 at 4:09 PM, Khaghan said:

Also, and relatedly, the Patroma family of Lunar carpetbaggers are mentioned to "rule most of the former holdings of the zebra people", which I assume would have been the lands given to Olgkarth of the Pavis Survivors by Dorasar.  Is this just Zebraside in the Big Rubble, or would there have been another chunk of Pavis County under their rule before the Lunar occupation?  Not a huge deal if I have to sketch those details in myself, but if they're actually laid out somewhere and somebody could point me in their direction, that would be appreciated.

Hmm. I would imagine that it was some grazing land close to the city and any 'holdings' were just temporary camps. So the Patroma took these lands over and started settlements on them. Violating the ancient decree that they were grazing lands

I would say not Zebraside, as this belongs to the Old City, not to the zebra people

The Zebra Tribe now have new lands right on the edge of the county

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 8/22/2023 at 8:28 AM, Erol of Backford said:

A few other Pavis questions, what year is the Shadows of Pavis based 1613?

Can you be more specific? I think the original campaign began around 1617. But which activities are you asking about? The troll contests would likely have been 1622/3

On 8/22/2023 at 8:28 AM, Erol of Backford said:

What year was "old" Pavis actually completed, guessing like 850 or 855? Twenty or so years would seem normal/minimal to finish such a massive project?

The Rough Guide will reappear down the track in this series. Pauses to check. 831-850 is known as 'The Construction Phase'

On 8/22/2023 at 8:28 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Additionally are there will there be scenarios that link us or take one north and west of Pavis, say Where the Rock Speaks or Indagos possibly?

Indagos definitely. Desolation Hills definitely

On 8/22/2023 at 8:28 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Lastly the first release is at electrum now. Is there any update on when it might be POD?

We are waiting for the proof copy. Can apparently take a few weeks. Then we need to check it simply for any major formatting errors, so as long as its all good, it can be released as soon as we check it. Thanks to Fabian for doing that, and to Nick for creating the POD version

On 8/22/2023 at 8:28 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Thank you Mr. Thomson!

I'm just glad people like the work!! I loved writing and playing it

Please leave us a rating on Drivethru if you have the time :)

[Ian A. Thomson]

Zebra Bridge Tolls

Am thinking the following amount needs to be revised, with maybe a sliding scale depending on the person's status

6 Lunars seems a heck of a lot since a noble's standard of living according to the RQG Rules is only 200L per year

Maybe I should change Lunars to coppers? Even that seems high, but then these people are little more than bandits. (Impoverished Manside/Zebraside Locals are exempt as long as they are registered with the Fort Staff.)

Opinions welcome

"Hargran has a squad of the Fort Guard stationed by the bridge at all times. Their job is to keep the area under surveillance and collect toll from bridge users. The toll has, since Hargran’s take-over, been one silver per leg for each of those who cross (i.e. two silvers per man, and four per beast)"

[Squaredeal Sten]

34 minutes ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Zebra Bridge Tolls

Am thinking the following amount needs to be revised, with maybe a sliding scale depending on the person's status

6 Lunars seems a heck of a lot since a noble's standard of living according to the RQG Rules is only 200L per year

Maybe I should change Lunars to coppers? Even that seems high, but then these people are little more than bandits. (Impoverished Manside/Zebraside Locals are exempt as long as they are registered with the Fort Staff.)

Opinions welcome

"Hargran has a squad of the Fort Guard stationed by the bridge at all times. Their job is to keep the area under surveillance and collect toll from bridge users. The toll has, since Hargran’s take-over, been one silver per leg for each of those who cross (i.e. two silvers per man, and four per beast)"

i agree  with you. The RQ2 to RQG conversion advice would indicate a 1;10 ratio,    And the average Free Gloranthan household makes about 60L a year, though the standard prices seem to be Sartar-centric.  . 

[jeraldo]

3 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Zebra Bridge Tolls

Am thinking the following amount needs to be revised, with maybe a sliding scale depending on the person's status

6 Lunars seems a heck of a lot since a noble's standard of living according to the RQG Rules is only 200L per year

Maybe I should change Lunars to coppers? Even that seems high, but then these people are little more than bandits. (Impoverished Manside/Zebraside Locals are exempt as long as they are registered with the Fort Staff.)

Opinions welcome

"Hargran has a squad of the Fort Guard stationed by the bridge at all times. Their job is to keep the area under surveillance and collect toll from bridge users. The toll has, since Hargran’s take-over, been one silver per leg for each of those who cross (i.e. two silvers per man, and four per beast)"

Agreed - one clack per leg would seem much more reasonable based on the new monetary basis. 
Although, being bandits, maybe a Lunar per leg is the starting point of a bargaining/negotiation, with a clack per leg being the absolute minimum?

Also, “trade good to the value of” would likely be the medium of exchange for many seeking to cross?

 

 

[Ian A. Thomson]

To whet the appetites, the basic contents list of Vol. 04 is now finalized. It may of course change a little, but based on my experience with the previous books it feels like this is the solid basic model now:

 

VOL. 04 - CONTENTS INDEX

 

PART ONE: FORTS & TEMPLES IN THE RUBBLE.. 6

Zebra Fort (Peter Johansson, Sten Åhrman & Ian T.) 7

Zebra Stockade .....................................................  17

The Salt Mine Forts .................................................... 18

Fort Wyvern: Lunar Guardpost at Wyvern Gate ...... 24

Griffin Gate Blockhouse: Lunar Watchpost ............. 25

The Yelorna Temple .............................................. 26

The Old Mint (Lowell Francis, Sherri Stewart & Ian T.) 30

Holiday Glorantha: Mani’s Fort (Ian T. & Greg Stafford) 40

The Old Pavis Dragonewt Temple........................... 47

Traversing the Big Rubble ...................................... 51

The Walls of the Big Rubble ..................................  52

 

PART TWO: FRIENDS & ALLIES OF OLD PAVIS ..  57

The Urban Orlanthi (basic Homeland details) ......... 58

The Real City Armed Escorts .................................. 61

Old Pavic Contacts (By Ian T & Oliver Dickinson) ... 64

Yelornans of Old Pavis (Ian T. w. Jane Williams) .... 67

The Jalmari (Michael O’Brien, Tim Leask & Ian T.).. 69

The Silent Swords [Jalmari Heroband]

(by Michael O’Brien, Tim Leask & Ian Thomson) ...  72

The Dylfings (Mani’s Clan) (Ian T. & Greg Stafford)  76

The Indagos Family .............................................. 79

The Getenak Tradition (Ian T. & Greg Stafford) 80

Aldryami of the Big Rubble .................................... 87

Creating a Pavic Elf Adventurer .................... 91 & 92

The Sap of Shanasee (Elf Warband) ....................... 94

Aldryami Cult of Halamalao [shortform] ................ 95

The Gardeners of Pavis: Old Pavic Heroband.......... 96

The Great Gardener (Pavis subcult for Aldryami) ...  97

 

PART THREE: CRIMINALS & ENEMIES OF PAVIS 98

The Black Fang Assassins (Ian T. w. Greg Stafford) 99

Thief Cults of New Pavis (brief notes).................... 103

The Dustbowl Circus (by Mark Galeotti w. Ian T.) . 104

(Lunar Intellignce Agents)

Gim-gim the Grim (Ian T. w. Darius West) .......... 106

Dolphins Street Gang (RQG Stats: Gerard Crowe).. 108

Sarken’s Gang (L. Francis, S. L. Stewart, S. Lucek) ..  110

Cats of Ilsar [Foreign Mercenary/Bandit Gang]

(Lowell Francis, Sherri Stewart w. Ian T. & S. Lucek) . 118

Notable Lunars (RQG Stats: various authors)........ 121

Lunar Collaborators (RQG Stats: various authors). 124

The Anti-Coders (Ian T. w. Jerry Edmondson)....... 127

The Taint of Chaos (in Old Pavis)......................... 132

 

PART FOUR: REBELS & INDEPENDENTS ..........  136

The Rowdy Gang (Ian T. with Oliver Dickinson) ....  137

Chhotmai’s Spice Kitchen (Steve Dornan w. Ian T.) . 144

The Mysterious Griselda (by Oliver Dickinson)...... 145

Pavis Beggars’ Guild (Michael O’Brien w. Ian T.) ... 146

The Lost God (Beggars/Criminal Cult) ................. 150

The Uz Mercantile Association ............................. 154

The Red Stallions Outlaw Gang............................. 156

Mapiri: Pavis Hero-Cult (Ian T. w. Steve Dornan) .  160

The Nameless Man (Humakt subcult) ................... 161

The Grey Company (Original idea: Peter Maranci) ..  162

Leonardo the Scientist......................................... 164

PART FIVE: FOR A FISTFUL OF LUNARS ...........  172

Introduction to the Scenarios ..............................  173

A Time for Heroes (campaign timeline details) .....  175

At Home in New Pavis ........................................  179

The Loyal Apprentices (Pavis Cult Social Clubs) ....  181

The Griffin Gate District........................................ 191

The Streets of Manside.......................................... 194

Wyvern Gate District ............................................  195

The Zebra Ruins ...................................................  196

Big Rubble Random Encounters (Clint Staples) ......  197

Ghosts & Visions in the Big Rubble ........................  199

Rodenta Implausius (David Millians w. Ian T.) .......  200

(Rat-Folk of the Big Rubble)

 

PART SIX: ONCE UPON A TIME IN PAVIS ............  202

The Curse of the Copper Condor (New Pavis mystery) ...  203

A Very Long Engagement (The Wedding Planners).. ??

The Yelorna Temple Raid....................................... ??

Meldek! (A foreign wizard arrives in New Pavis!)..... ??

Kakstan’s Art Museum ..........................................  ??

Liberating the Old Mint (L. Francis, S.L. Stewart & Ian T.). ??

Edited November 16, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[soltakss]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:09 AM, Khaghan said:

I'm starting to sketch out a Prax/New Pavis/Big Rubble campaign that will start just prior to the Lunar conquest in 1610

That sounds great. Here is the Campaign that I would have loved to run, and which I ran probably two-thirds of in my last Gloranthan campaign, and here is a timeline of events set in the Pavis area.

[Malin]

59 minutes ago, soltakss said:

That sounds great. Here is the Campaign that I would have loved to run, and which I ran probably two-thirds of in my last Gloranthan campaign, and here is a timeline of events set in the Pavis area.

Nice! I haven't got to Pavis yet, we are doing Sun County stuff and the choose to go into the Wastes instead. But ho boy that timeline was interesting and useful!

[Ian A. Thomson]

There was a rather lively (and totally valid) discussion here on the attitudes of Praxians (a very broad culture indeed) towards Pavis in my campaign (being somewhat varied from the canon), that an admin has moved to be its own new thread.

(Thanks for that. I had no problem with the discussion, it just developed its own identity quite quickly.)

It has inspired me to write a short piece of clarification for the current work in progress book (Vol. 04) where it fits very nicely. So it was timely as well.

You can now find the discussion here: 

 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[mal]

Glad my question prompted an update. Sorry it made more work for you Ian!

[Ian A. Thomson]

30 minutes ago, mal said:

Glad my question prompted an update. Sorry it made more work for you Ian!

All good

It made me take note to clarify an aspect of the campaign background in the series

Very useful :)

[mal]

Hey Ian one more question…

Is there an outline of the campaign from beginning to end with key events along the way detailed? I know we will eventually stop the marriage between Pavis and the red goddess, save the cradle, and I assume help Argarth liberate Pavis, but I think it would be helpful to see where things are going a bit more concretely.  I’ve seen the lists of adventures in order but they’re only these early adventures which seem to have little to do with the actual story arc other than setting up an ongoing relationship to the Pavis cult, and making connections in the city. Or maybe you have that set for a future volume, and im just being greedy! 

Edited August 25, 2023 by mal

[Ian A. Thomson]

8 hours ago, mal said:

Hey Ian one more question…

Is there an outline of the campaign from beginning to end with key events along the way detailed? 

Perfectly reasonable question

Vol. 04 is the first one where these pivotal events start to be significantly introduced (proclamation of the Wedding of Pavis, meeting the Grey Company, meeting two of the main protagonists...)

Vol. 05 has the first of those actual historical events in :)

I have my own big list which only solidified into first draft a few weeks ago, so isn't yet ready to publish 

Message me with examples of what you would expect to see, and I will consider putting a version of such a list in Vol. 04. (At least the first half of it, with maybe the second half in Vol. 05)

Oh, and at the crescendo of it all I vary from canon in terms of what specifically happens in Pavis (not in terms of the broader historical events). Greg and I had a whole other theme in mind for the grand finale of the grand plan, that was being discussed and considered for canon around 1999/2000. (Since then officially abandoned, but not by me!) :)

Edited August 26, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

Since then officially abandoned

Well, Harold Bloom’s been dead a while, and I wonder whether the very notion of canon will soon follow him. Ralph Waldo Nysalor whispers in my ear, “A foolish consistency is the walktapus of little minds, adored by little GMs and rules lawyers and divines.”

[Ian A. Thomson]

13 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Well, Harold Bloom’s been dead a while, and I wonder whether the very notion of canon will soon follow him. Ralph Waldo Nysalor whispers in my ear, “A foolish consistency is the walktapus of little minds, adored by little GMs and rules lawyers and divines.”

I think Chaosium are great in supporting the YGWV standpoint. That's the way to support creativity, and they do it wonderfully.

Plus, as the host company they have every right to establish a consistent game history. Individuals may not agree that all of their choices are the best, but so what. Someone has to helm the ship and that's fine by me. I will continue to stick to main canon events as much as I possibly can without diluting the original vision Greg and I developed for the Grand Plan

Greg didn't even agree with all of my proposals anyway (though there were very few he had a complete stand against, such as he said there were definitely no major sewer tunnels under Old Pavis like there are under Paris, and well... there totally are in my Glorantha. Its just too much of an MGF idea!) 

I see it all as multiverse variants! :)

Edited August 27, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

as the host company they have every right to establish a consistent game history.

Sure, it is theirs — they have every right. I am not proposing an equally monolithic anti-canon: “this is how it would be, if only they had done it right.” Not that!

Did Harrison worry about whether his next Viriconium story would cohere with his last to form an intelligible timeline? He had every right to make them consistent, but he was not motivated to do it.

Is there a single “true” version of I Got Rhythm? Do we need to splice a metric ton of jazz into a single plunderphonic megaversion?

[Malin]

As someone who was initially not too concerned about establishing a consistent canon history in the games I publish (interactive fiction, not ttrpgs), I really wish I had been more stringent with that from the start. And that's only two books by now and still my editors and I have to scramble and ensure everything fits together (or is subtly adjusted). Hell, I thought I could get away with not having a fixed timeline, but oh no. People start dissecting everything, so it needs to be as waterproof as possible.

I can truly understand why Chaosium focuses on a single timeline because anything else escalates and causes trouble. I am impressed that they have managed to wrangle this together!

And nope, Chaoisum's glorantha is not exactly my glorantha, but that's the beauty of it.

[Nozbat]

16 hours ago, Ian A. Thomson said:

he said there were definitely no major sewer tunnels under Old Pavis like there are under Paris, and well... there totally are in my Glorantha.

I'm with you Ian.. apart from the obvious MGF with an extensive sewer system below Old Pavis.. how did Greg imagine sanitation worked in a city as large as Pavis? Maybe Gloranthans don't poo? I'm not sure I've ever seen a thread to suggest they do or don't?? I'm not sure even Orlanth could generate enough wind to waft away the smells of city living without a sewage system!!

I'm reminded of the first paragraphs of George McDonald-Fraser's The Pyrates..

That was England, then; long before interfering social historians and such carles had spoiled it by discovering that its sanitation was primitive and its social services non-existent, that London's atmosphere was so poisonous as to be unbreathable by all but the strongest lungs, that King Charles's courtiers probably didn't change their underwear above once a fortnight, that the cities stank fit to wake the dead and the countryside was largely either wilderness or rural slum, that religious bigotry, dental decay, political corruption, fleas, cruelty, poverty, disease, injustice, public hangings, malnutrition, and bear-baiting were rife, and there was hardly an economist or environmentalist or town planner or sociologist or anything progressive worth a damn. (There wasn't even a London School of Economics, which is remarkable when you consider that Locke and Hobbes were loose about the place).

George MacDonald Fraser. The Pyrates. HarperCollins. 

Having spent the last week in London..I'm not sure much has changed.. except the London School of Economics bit and the large extensive sewer system..