Truly Mighty Shamans: Suggestions?

[dumuzid]

My campaign is now in contact with the Uncoling reindeer hsunchen of Fronela.  The Guide to Glorantha describes the shamans of the Uncolings as some of the most powerful magicians in all of Glorantha, able to hold their ground before zzaburi of Loskalm and Sogalotha Mambrola.  My challenge, from the position of running of running the game, is: how do I portray this functionally.  From seeing and using it in play, sorcery packs an enormous punch when it goes off successfully, and unless there's ways for multiple shamans to pool their power I have a hard time seeing how they hold out against the Malkioni outside of ambush and surprise conditions where the Malkioni zzaburi don't have the time or ready implements to fully 'power up' their magic.

What should be the mechanical and practical hallmarks of sophisticated, powerful animist magic, on the scale the Uncoling shamans are suggested to wield in the Guide?  What sorts of magical effects can the Uncolings derive from their mass seasonal gatherings at sacred Porent?  How do I run them at a level where they can believably stand up to the Malkioni to the south and the Kingdom of War to the east?

Note, this isn't a call to discuss tactics for countering sorcery as such--I'm aware of several vulnerabilities that wizard-foes of all stripes can take advantage of (my preferred method is having dozens of trollkin slingers pelt the sorcerer with bolgs)--it's about exploring ways shamanism could compete with sorcery on an even footing, as Uncoling shamanism is described as doing, and as presumably the Pralori shamans manage in Maniria.

So, thoughts?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, dumuzid said:

From seeing and using it in play, sorcery packs an enormous punch when it goes off successfully, and unless there's ways for multiple shamans to pool their power I have a hard time seeing how they hold out against the Malkioni outside of ambush and surprise conditions where the Malkioni zzaburi don't have the time or ready implements to fully 'power up' their magic.

There are clearly more powers that shamans can draw upon.  Unless they are with Argrath, they are unlikely to be pooling their power - that seems a Sartar Magical Union thing.  However, if you look back to Nomad Gods, you'll find the shamans can draw upon the great spirits and tap the Soul Winds (or Medicine Bundles).

Obviously no mechanics for this currently, but you might abstract as Augmenting their Spirit Combat with a Rune power (the great spirit) to oppose the sorcerous spell involved.  Maybe they summon a Spirit Wolf to devour the foes magic, or summon the Wild Hunter to shred it, or summon Oakfed to burn it up.  Finding the right great spirit to oppose successfully is undoubtedly important.

 

[dumuzid]

4 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

you might abstract as Augmenting their Spirit Combat with a Rune power (the great spirit) to oppose the sorcerous spell involved.

Huh, using the Spirit Combat skill in a context other than specifically, well, Spirit Combat, is not an approach I'd considered, but I like it a lot.

Edited February 15, 2022 by dumuzid

[Squaredeal Sten]

Seems to me it is a situation for  asymmetrical warfare.  The shaman does not wait until the wizard is ready and  then slug it out toe to toe.  The shaman may have a very powerful fetch controlling slightly less powerful spirits.  When a maxed shaman with matching fetch casts it will be with an effective POW of 42 or more (look at the magic attack shamanic ability).  And he or she will have a much faster reaction time.  

Get inside the wizard's decision cycle.  While the wiz is doing a ceremony (ritual) to cope with yesterday's threat, the shaman has a new threat today.

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Squaredeal Sten
ternm; ritual; detail-

[Joerg]

Another thought: Animism is something you have.

What powerful spirits are at the beck and call of the Uncoling shamans?

Spirits of the land, the very ground the battle is fought on, would be a really valuable resource.

[Richard S.]

The biggest advantage spirit and rune magic has over sorcery is, as you mentioned, speed. In a one-on-one thaumaturgic duel the shaman can sic half a dozen spirits on the sorcerer and be blasting them with spells before the poor wizard can even pull a spirit-killing rabbit out of his hat. It's slightly different if the sorcerer is prepared with an arsenal of inscriptions and pre-cast spells, but they'll still be hard put to it. IMG at least, shamans also have an easier time than sorcerers in getting willing aid out of spirits, so they can make alliances with and summon all sorts of powerful beings, especially ancestors. Sorcerers can pull off summoning tricks too of course, but again it takes more time and with their will-to-power attitude it's less likely their spirits will be willing allies, thus taking more time so they can be controlled. In a full battle involving multiple sorcerers and shamans alongside normal warriors I'd say the odds are more even, since the sorcerers have more protection and thus time at their disposal, but I'd still give the edge to the shamans since their spirits can ignore the battle to go mess with the sorcerers.

I do think a fully prepared sorcerer is more powerful than a similarly prepared shaman, but the problem is that the Uncolings do rely on hit-and-run tactics with smaller groups that don't give the sorcerers or their forces enough time to adequately respond. AFAIK there's not a concentrated effort to go and wipe out the Uncolings.

And of course, like Jajagappa mentioned, there's plenty of shamanic stuff that's been hinted at that we haven't seen in rules, like the soul winds (though I think Horned Man might have something about them in the cults book?) and summoning allied gods.

[Eff]

A couple thoughts. 

Sorcery is, at the conceptual level, all about asserting the higher, realer world over the transient and ephemeral material one. So when considering spiritism that matches sorcery in power and scope, it's perhaps worth considering whether it's directly opposing the sorcerous worldview with the animistic/spiritistic worldview. And this worldview is, instead, all about mediating relationships between fundamentally equal worlds or parties. 

So a massive sorcery ritual primarily consists of trying to force the universe into the correct position. But a massive animism ritual primarily consists of an extended negotiation and mediation. One possibility here is that the Uncolings are able to sabotage major Loskalm and Akem sorcery because they are able to get important participants lending their power- tutelary divinities, nymphs, etc.- to withdraw that power or force a bidding war and thus making the ritual unsustainable. But that's probably subsidiary- anyone can do that if they've got the right tools. 

I think part of this may well be from the fact that both Uncolings and Pralori are hsunchen who live together with gregarious herd animals in large numbers, and thus they have significantly more participants available for ritual purposes per capita. They don't have the population of agrarian peoples, but agrarian peoples are mostly reliant on hierarchical modes of magic- you donate your spiritual power to the wyter or to the local zzaburi, and they pass it up the chain, and at some higher point you have a single person who is casting a single grand spell. But Uncoling shamans instead perhaps have dozens and dozens of individual ritual spells, each conforming to the specific location, the terroir d'esprit, and so produce a "wider", more flexible spell, one which musters equal mojo because it's more efficient in its use of power. 

Of course, you could go even further and attempt to set up stand alone complexes/self-assembling hypersigils. And that's how Boatrises and Sunstops happen. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by Eff

[dumuzid]

Okay, thank you to everyone who's weighed in so far.  We seem to have two basic currents here: a fairly unified tactical answer to how shamans compete with sophisticated sorcery (speed and flexibility of spirit magic and animism vs. sorcery's long windup; the element of surprise and harassing, hit-and-run tactics); and multiple, often mutually inclusive, operational and strategic answers (alliances with greater spirits, the soul winds, meddling in foreign rites through spirit diplomacy, etc.).

What has me curious right now is the latter, the higher order aspects of animist magic the Uncolings could bring to bear.  @Joerg asked, "What powerful spirits are at the beck and call of the Uncoling shamans?" and given the fraught history of Fronela's hsunchen peoples, this is a question worth investigating.  First, the map.  Let's take a look at the place.  

This, I propose, is the rough ranging area of the Uncolings circa 1627, the current timeframe of my campaign.  To the north is the Glacier, to the south are Akem and Loskalm, to the west are the rather frightful aldryami of the Winterwood.  I expect they used to be able to range freely much further east, as far as Upriver and Rathorela (and really, who wouldn't like to visit Zoria if they can?), but the Kingdom of War troubles all that now.

Regarding the significant sites noted here: Porent is the sacred center of the Uncolings, and its population swells to the size of a massive city by Gloranthan standards during major sacred events; Oral-Ta is a peculiar ruin inhabited by 'creatures like lead centipedes' which are rumored to be the tortured souls of First Age trolls in the guide; the area under the Ban on that map covers the ancient homeland of the Third Eye Blue people, and in my campaign left the Ban after Sacred Time, 1626; the string of eastern settlements from Ainsford to Finho was all sacked and depopulated by the Kingdom of War between 1623 and 1626 in my campaign's Glorantha.

Now looking to the land and its spirits, what do we have here?  The plateau north of Finho with its hills and lake probably have interesting spirits, being such dominant features in an otherwise broad, flat land, but they now lie on the marches of the Kingdom of War.  The Kingdom in my Glorantha supports its system of slavery with both theistic and sorcerous magical compulsion--what measures might the Uncolings take to keep the hell-priests to the east from enslaving the spirits of the land they have existing relationships with?  The north is a source of dangerous power.  Things called off the Glacier will always have greater affinity for the trolls, and I expect their bargains come with making a little more dark and cold in the Uncolings' lives, so dangerous allies but potentially quite fearsome.  Whatever's going on at Oral-Ta probably yields darkness and/or Underworld spirits as well.  We have a second weird little knot of hills with no explication in the Guide that I noted north of Oral-Ta, the spirit ecology there is terra incognita as far as I know.  Two conspicuous lakes, one connected to a major river system and the other seemingly disconnected.  There's the Deerwood, and the interesting question of just how closely the Uncolings are tied to the otherwise reclusive Winterwood aldryami.  The one-sentence description of the Deerwood in the Guide only says it's good hunting for the Uncolings, no mention of Aldryami--I wonder under what terms the Uncolings gained control of this wood with a major elfwood contiguous to it, and how much they know about Winterwood's role in the pending Reforesting.  The Maidstone Mountains are elf and weird archer country.

Finally, we have the feature that really sets the Uncolings apart from, say, the Praxians: the great, living body of the plains stretching north, east and west around Porent.  Unlike the blasted lands of Prax, the land goddesses here seem to be in fine health despite the Syndic's Ban.  I'm sure the Uncoling shamans have existing arrangements to call up better feed for their herds with the spirits of their grazing lands.  How could the Uncolings mobilize the enormous spiritual power of their living taiga and tundra?

Edited February 15, 2022 by dumuzid

[Richard S.]

I wonder if Hsunchen tribes have something similar to the Praxian's "Call Founder". That'd be a potent bit of "higher order spirit magic" I think, collapsing the divide between the otherworld and the material temporarily to let their gods manifest.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

I wonder if Hsunchen tribes have something similar to the Praxian's "Call Founder".

We know the primary parent for many of the Hsunchen tribes, e.g. Telmor, Basmol, Rathor, etc.  They'd certainly be able to contact those as powerful spirits, as well as follow their myths.  I don't know if those would be enough alone to combat powerful sorcery - after all some of them were likely defeated by the Malkioni (thinking Basmol particularly).  But the Spirit World is pervasive (and I always think rather fluid), so there may be ways for shamans to stretch, fold, bend, or follow it, as well as listen to it, that may give them clues to the activities of sorcerers and thus direct spiritual attacks that can halt the sorcerous magics. 

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, dumuzid said:

Now looking to the land and its spirits, what do we have here?

Bear in mind that reindeer herds are not likely locked into this particular stretch of land per se, but will advance and retreat as the tundra and taiga advance north or retreat south.  They will likely rely on whichever Earth/land goddess nurtures the lichens and fungi that grow across the lands and sustains the reindeer.  

They may not necessarily mind the deities of the Glacier - those were foes of the western wizards, too, and bring to bear powerful winds and snows. 

Raven is certainly present, though perhaps is seen more as an ally of the wolves or other predators that hunt the herds?

 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Just looking through the Shaman Abilities and new powers for Spirits in the bestairy gives a TON of really awesome stuff to work with.

 

Things like Spirit Affinity would make the local spirits more likely to help and on average more powerful. Spell Barrage is FREAKING AMAZING, especially if you combine it with Multispell and how your GM solves that headache. (We had a Shaman Thanos Snapping something like 8 dudes a round out of existence. Spell Barrage 3, so 4 spells a round and Mulstispell 3 for 4 spells in each set of casts. 3 disrupts per target for 3d3 just mangles people) Self-Resurrection seems hella ridiculous OP and Sorcerers ain't got shit on that unless they are awesome HeroQuesters or something. 

 

Between a Fetch and Soul Expansion a Shaman can have effectively Unlimited Power depending on how long they have been at it and how weird they can get with Taboos. I cannot find it in the rule right now but, I think the Fetch adds to the Shaman's POW for Magical attack and defense. Which would mean they almost always hit with their multitude of spells.

[Ladygolem]

That tracks with how there's a copious handful of super-powerful shamans out there. Blueface in Balazar, Lajla Vanemuine in Fronela, Always Awake Twice in Pent all have some seriously crazy magic going on and are probably super old. Being able to self-resurrect for centuries lets you accumulate a shit ton of POW and bind a veritable army of spirits at your command.

[Dragon]

8 minutes ago, HreshtIronBorne said:

Self-Resurrection seems hella ridiculous OP

I do not think it is OP. You need to sacrifice stats (like all Shamanic Abilities) to even be able. So let's say the shaman spent 1 point. He can self-resurrect after 8 weeks. That also means his body needs to be preserved by his people for 8 weeks until he can return from the Spirit World.

The next consideration is that the shaman is dead. So let's say the shaman took a wound that took him to -5 GHP. So the dead shaman needs to spend 6 POW (permanent) to heal himself to 1 GHP. The Ability description doesn't say someone else can heal him to 1 hp. If he lost or maimed a limb, he might need to cast Healing on that too - adding to his POW cost. If the shaman just got hit by a slash with a great sword with Boon of Kargan Tor 8 on it, that shaman is going to have to pay some serious POW to live again.

Finally, we get to logistics. The Malkioni will know shamans are sometimes reputed to do self resurrect. So all they really need to do is grab the body. We all have heard of the mythic tales of someone dismembering a body and burying different parts in different places. The shaman is going to have to at least get his head reattached to his chest and abdomen to self-resurrect. 

So, really it costs to have a Shaman Ability that you hope to never need. You don't want it to take 8 weeks when the community presumably needs you to finish the adventure. Hence, you really need 3 or 4 Ability points in it. The shaman has to spend permanent POW to heal his dead body. (A bit like Divine Intervention). The community needs to rescue his body and keep it safe until he is done. 

Hence, I am of the opinion that it is a decent power, but I would recommend those 3 or 4 Ability points go into something that makes the shaman more useful in dealing with the spirits first. At least for player shamans.

[HreshtIronBorne]

I was mostly referring to the list of powers that seems almost completely outside the purview of the other Gloranthan Magicians. Self-Resurrection is no more OP, really, than any other amazing Gloranthan Magical Power. It is sure as Hell an awesome ability though!

[Ladygolem]

55 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Hence, I am of the opinion that it is a decent power, but I would recommend those 3 or 4 Ability points go into something that makes the shaman more useful in dealing with the spirits first. At least for player shamans.

Sure, that's a fair assessment. Player shamans aren't gonna have decades of in-game time to hone their abilities, but it's the long term where self-resurrection really shines. It makes sure you have plenty of time to build up your power base (though the centuries-long lifespans the greatest shamans seem to have must come from somewhere else, possibly a different more advanced shamanic ability or powerful spirit pact)

[Eff]

Fungi and lichens... the tundra-taiga border is interesting ecologically and also spiritually. Fungi are, of course, a source of surface Dark, while lichens seem to fall almost outside of elemental classification, associated with the undetailed Slor and the mysterious "red elves"/"goblins"/Slorifings. Possibly they represent a primordial Plant Rune set of entities, without Earth/Aldrya providing the stiffening vascular tissue of later plants.

Which just possibly makes them a gateway for interacting with strange and unfamiliar spirits, at least to the people of warmer country. Certainly, there aren't many people who share this environment- uzhim, hollri, and a few other creatures of the glacial world. Possibly Altinelans at the southern reach of their terrain. Eolians in the Lunar Empire, who are also reindeer herders, and who also have substantial spiritual fortitude behind them, enough to extract open-ended propitiation from the Red Emperor himself.

Which suggests the possibility of PCs following in Snodal's footsteps and wandering into the country of the White Pillar.

[metcalph]

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

My campaign is now in contact with the Uncoling reindeer hsunchen of Fronela.  The Guide to Glorantha describes the shamans of the Uncolings as some of the most powerful magicians in all of Glorantha, able to hold their ground before zzaburi of Loskalm and Sogalotha Mambrola. 

Actually it just says the wizards of Loskalm (Guide p233).  I think the Wizards of Sog City are in another league.

9 hours ago, dumuzid said:

 

My challenge, from the position of running of running the game, is: how do I portray this functionally.  From seeing and using it in play, sorcery packs an enormous punch when it goes off successfully, and unless there's ways for multiple shamans to pool their power I have a hard time seeing how they hold out against the Malkioni outside of ambush and surprise conditions where the Malkioni zzaburi don't have the time or ready implements to fully 'power up' their magic.

Well, in the RQ rules the Shamans are already capable of out-performing any sorcerer.  I think the already mentioned Soul Winds are confined to Prax and the Wastelands.  

On a more serious note, the Uncolings have contact with the Third Eye Blue.  They can make lightning bolts and shooting stars medicine bundles for the shamans to use.  Causal use of a medicine bundle yields rune magic while elaborate r itual usage of a medicine bundle yields dramatic magics at the cost of the medicine bundle. 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

my first instinct is one word: wyter

 

we have shamans, assuming uncolings priests

 

for any clan there is a wyter, and the clan's shaman should be the wyter's priest

for any tribe, there is a wyter, and the shaman's tribe society should define the equivalent of a temple hierarchy

for all the uncoling people, there is a wyter, and the same but this wyter should be enormous, more or less a god challenger

 

note that I see these tribe / people wyters are "temporary powerful": 

when the clans come together for an important ritual (because omen, etc..) sacrificing pow for the tribe wyter, or maybe gathering the clans wyters in One tribe wyter

when the tribes come together for an exceptional danger (because omen, cruisade, etc...) sacrificing pow for the land/people wyter, or maybe gathering the clans wyters in One land/people wyter

 

then the rqg mechanic works: the powerful wyter will lose day after day, fight after fight, its pow, until a new great ceremony. But such ceremony is rare because uncolings are not an organized people (not sure for that)

 

 you see my point; shamans (or a great entity) call for the "all uncolings assembly", empowering the wyter.

Now you have one shaman (or a shaman's team) who have the terrific power, not as a standard shaman, but as a standard wyter's priest (except the wyter is just very powerful)