Sword Trance and the Humakti Duel

[davecake]

9 hours ago, icebrand said:

Edit: sword trance was a mistake, change my mind

I have now settled on a house rule that <melee weapon> Trance can have a maximum effect of doubling base skill, thus making its maximum effect on parity with Berserk and Arrow Trance. This, plus the restrictions on what you are able to do when in a Trance that are in the RBoM, makes it just about ok for me, though still very powerful. It also means in fights between Swords of Humakt sword skill still matters, not just who has the most stored magic points. 
I think it was a big mistake to give it to Humakt without considering these issues in the first place, but I thought Axe Trance was a mistake in RQ3 too (just hardly anyone played BG characters back then). I think it’s now been reasonably fixed. 

Once you think of Axe Trance as basically a loose Berserk equivalent, then I like Humakti having Sword Trance more than Berserk (as they had in RQ3), seems much more in character for the Honor-bound Truth rune cult. And in RQG without some massive skill boost spell, Humakti against a berserk ZZer are utterly outmatched (even with they are still in big trouble). 
Though if it is a loose Berserk equivalent, why does Babeester Gor get both? (Because they are awesome, that’s why)

 

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

12 hours ago, davecake said:

I have now settled on a house rule that <melee weapon> Trance can have a maximum effect of doubling base skill

I find that sword Trance uses a lot of magic points and time. "But SSoV" you probably say, "I can spend 200 mp on it" and if you spend 15 melee rounds on a 1 point spell everyone's next action is dispel magic. 

Our humakti uses moral and the party loves her.

12 hours ago, davecake said:

...the restrictions on what you are able to do when in a Trance that are in the RBoM, makes it just about ok

Yes.

[Kloster]

14 hours ago, davecake said:

I have now settled on a house rule that <melee weapon> Trance can have a maximum effect of doubling base skill, thus making its maximum effect on parity with Berserk and Arrow Trance.

As I am using RQ3 combat rules, sword trance has never been a problem: You may have 450% sword attack, but you still have your normal chance to parry, and even if your sword parry were increased, you still don't decrease your opponent attack chance and have a limited number of parry. A 450% sword attack will make you killed by 10 normal trollkin with 1H spear.

1 hour ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I find that sword Trance uses a lot of magic points and time. "But SSoV" you probably say, "I can spend 200 mp on it" and if you spend 15 melee rounds on a 1 point spell everyone's next action is dispel magic. 

Perfectly true, and if someone attacks during the 14th round, the spell does not goes off and your humakti just lost 14 attacks. The game is over.

21 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Sword Trance pretty much negates natural attacks.

With RQG's combat rules, yes.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

41 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Sword Trance pretty much negates natural attacks.

Sure, but then since he can't cast light we can say that Shadow Walk (or a bow) negates Sword Trance too

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

I find that sword Trance uses a lot of magic points and time. "But SSoV" you probably say, "I can spend 200 mp on it" and if you spend 15 melee rounds on a 1 point spell everyone's next action is dispel magic. 

Dump 10-20% of the MPs into Defensive Boosting and you’re golden.

Edited March 23, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[icebrand]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

Dump 10% of the MPs into Defensive Boosting and you’re golden.

Defensive Boosting should never have happened. Its so terrible it made me lose SAN

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, icebrand said:

Defensive Boosting should never have happened. Its so terrible it made me lose SAN

I was one of the first proponents of Defensive Boosting being RAW, but even then my comment was ”but this would be weird so it probably isn’t intended”.

Edited March 24, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

32 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Dump 10-20% of the MPs into Defensive Boosting and you’re golden.

Yes! But then we still have a Bob with 200 mp (is that what? 40 mp enchants?)* 15 rounds casting behind a bush while nobody does anything to him to suddlently jump into Battle not able to heal, parry, dispel, swim, evade, or solve a puzzle. Throw him a Beffudle and you are done.

Maybe we never used it too much so we are missing the spell's true potential but "this doesn't look like anything to me".

[soltakss]

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Apparently Shergar never fought a Humakti with Sword Trance.  You would miss most all those attacks, (your skills would be -100%, -80%... or so), get parried, and take damage to all five hooves and your spider head.

This was in the Olden Days, before Sword Trance was a thing.

 

[Akhôrahil]

14 hours ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Yes! But then we still have a Bob with 200 mp (is that what? 40 mp enchants?)* 15 rounds casting behind a bush while nobody does anything to him to suddlently jump into Battle not able to heal, parry, dispel, swim, evade, or solve a puzzle. Throw him a Beffudle and you are done.

Maybe we never used it too much so we are missing the spell's true potential but "this doesn't look like anything to me".

In my experience, PCs get to prep for a fair number of fights (although certainly not all).

In a Humakti duel in particular, whoever has the most MPs will cast the bigger Sword Trance, and then dominate the duel as Sword Trance completely overshadows differences in the sword skill. This does not seem like MGF.

[JustAnotherVingan]

48 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

In my experience, PCs get to prep for a fair number of fights (although certainly not all).

In a Humakti duel in particular, whoever has the most MPs will cast the bigger Sword Trance, and then dominate the duel as Sword Trance completely overshadows differences in the sword skill. This does not seem like MGF.

Certainly not many in my games.

Formal duels, battles yes.

Most encounters when exploring or travelling a couple of rounds at best.

Very few characters in my game  have the sort of MPs you are talking about.

None of my PCs have as many as Queen Leika (78), only 1 has over 50, and if they did they'd start seeing foes with enough MP to boost their dispels enough to overcome defensive boosting.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

In my experience, PCs get to prep for a fair number of fights (although certainly not all).

In a Humakti duel in particular, whoever has the most MPs will cast the bigger Sword Trance, and then dominate the duel as Sword Trance completely overshadows differences in the sword skill. This does not seem like MGF.

Totally agree. Doesn't sound like mgf. I lack the experience and never been in that situation, all I can offer is why I feel like it's not a be all end all spell. 

One humakty wirh Sword Trance and 15 mp on Trance and 30 mp on boost (to avoid Dismiss magic) vs a guy 100 mts away that throws sever spirit.

By the time  they meet (25 meters x 4 rounds) he is dead.

Or a couple of points of multispell + Disruption. Demoralize cuts skills in half or shield+protection and hope he doesn't crit. Or climb a tree and throw acorns at him (ok, that last one sucks)

"But humakty duels are not like that they buff for hours and start melee" well, then they sit down, count magic points and the one with more wins.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

5 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

None of my PCs have as many as Queen Leika (78), only 1 has over 50, and if they did they'd start seeing foes with enough MP to boost their dispels enough to overcome defensive boosting.

Did not think of that, you are right, mps are less than 50 over here too. 

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, SevenSistersOfVinga said:

Did not think of that, you are right, mps are less than 50 over here too. 

Even when the party can pool their crystals and matrices for a duel?

[JustAnotherVingan]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even when the party can pool their crystals and matrices for a duel?

Still less than 100 MP, and anything the party can do their opponent can do.

[SevenSistersOfVinga]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even when the party can pool their crystals and matrices for a duel?

Like I said, I never had humakti's duel, my opinion is partial because I never had that issue before. 

But if it's a duel and guy1 can get help from his friends why not the other guy? Can he get shadow Walk? Seal wound or strike?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I have very little idea how a Humakti duel actually works.  Is there a designated "preparation" phase?  Or does a successful Disruption or Lightning or good Javelin hit on SR 1 win?

All I know is that Sever Spirit is forbidden.  The Cults of Prax example includes a lot of preparation.

Is there a more detailed guideline or example anywhere?  Are there variants, such as "no Rune Magic" or "no Preparation" or "exactly N rounds of preparation, then anything goes"?

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Certainly not many in my games.

Formal duels, battles yes.

Most encounters when exploring or travelling a couple of rounds at best.

Very few characters in my game  have the sort of MPs you are talking about.

None of my PCs have as many as Queen Leika (78), only 1 has over 50, and if they did they'd start seeing foes with enough MP to boost their dispels enough to overcome defensive boosting.

happy to see I'm not alone

the power of sword trance is above all the GM's responsability and her generosity to dispense MP storages. The availability is her choice.

Our glorantha may vary.

I always have in mind what Leika have with her position and story before delivering anything to characters.

If a pc is much more powerful than others (for the same function : aka warrior vs warrior, or lover vs lover, etc..) after several scenarios, that is not the rules fault, that is my table "choice" (GM & players decisions).

 

The yelmalian is ridiculous ? send the party somewhere and give the opportunity to the  guy, and only him, to heroquest or be initiated to some weird secret, to buff him with a weapon, a matrix, a spell, a spirit or a hero abitlity

[JustAnotherVingan]

21 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

happy to see I'm not alone

the power of sword trance is above all the GM's responsability and her generosity to dispense MP storages. The availability is her choice.

Our glorantha may vary.

I always have in mind what Leika have with her position and story before delivering anything to characters.

If a pc is much more powerful than others (for the same function : aka warrior vs warrior, or lover vs lover, etc..) after several scenarios, that is not the rules fault, that is my table "choice" (GM & players decisions).

 

The yelmalian is ridiculous ? send the party somewhere and give the opportunity to the  guy, and only him, to heroquest or be initiated to some weird secret, to buff him with a weapon, a matrix, a spell, a spirit or a hero abitlity

Limiting Sword Trance as suggested seems like a sensible way to limit it if you're running the sort of game where players can put lots of MP into it.

Its not a situation thats arisen for me. Even with that limit if 2 characters have roughly equal ability scores and 1 has access to Sword Trance  and the other doesn't then in a straight fight he'll probably massacre the other player.  I'm pretty sure that if I was running a PC fighting a Humakti I'd be looking at options like Befuddle or Dispel Magic and what is an option for the PC is an option for NPCs too.

[Dragon]

When two Humakti decide to have a duel, they would agree on ground rules beforehand and abide by their honor to uphold their part. So all it takes is one to state 'No Magic'. Gifts, of course, must be included.

I recall that Zorak Zoran's try to find Humakt and challenge them to single combat - and then gang up on them. Many Humakt will have a geas to accept such challenges. Where the ZZ's do not. So, of course there must be a discussion of rules to apply to that particular duel. Since ZZ's abide by the DIsorder rune, along with Death and Darkness, they would not want an Honor Passion.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Dragon said:

1) So all it takes is one to state 'No Magic'.

2) Gifts, of course, must be included

I agree that they should decide on the terms of the duel.  But, IMO, it's more complex than your suggestions.

1) Why?  What if the other participant wants to use magic?  Do they play Rochambeau to decide?

2) Again, why?  If the gift is bound to a bad geas, why does the gift (say +10% to Swords) count, but not the 
bad "no armor on your head" geas?

 

As for Sword Trance, our group plays with a "no more than double your base skill" rule.  Also, due to different game mechanics (we don't use strike ranks) the user seldom puts in more than 8 magic points.  +80% to attack and parry is still very very good.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1) Why

yes the good question

there is absolutly no reason for a honorable god worshipper like a humakti to consider his god's power (aka sword transe) is not honorable

Your god gives you a terrific power, that is not you, that is your god.

But there  is another way in my last sentence: that is your god ==> that is your god-GM ==> that is your GM decision. She may decide that Humakt will not provide his blessing for some "fair reason" only a god could have.

 

In fact it could be interesting to imagine something (ok too complex but after all..)  like the "magnitude" of a divine spell depends on the situation (who are the opponent, who are the beneficiary, what is the intent of the prey, etc...)

 

For example

Zogzog the zorani wants to kill a Yelmite ==> Of course ZZ is happy to see it and will give all the help he can

Zogzog now wants to kill the grand mother of his tribe (KL high priestess), just because he his angry / frustrated ==> mmmm probably ZZ fully disagree...

But in fact Zogzog wants to kill the grand mother because he understand that the grand mother wants to reduce the power of the ZZ temple and gives all her favor to these cowards Kaarg's sons. Ah maybe, ZZ will help Zogzog a little bit...

 

that is a warrior example but we can extend it for other divinities and purposes.

a table like the moon effect in lunar magic:

the full intent is aligned with the divine roles (war between sun worshippers and darkness worshippers) = maximum effect

the intent is aligned with the divine roles but not with the interest of the temple = 3/4 effect

the intent is aligned with the interest of the temple but not really aligned with the divine roles = 1/2 effect

etc...

 

probably a boring rule, I will not use it or work on it (but that is not a big issue, as a GM I am the gods, and the gods work in mysterious ways)

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I'm pretty sure that if I was running a PC fighting a Humakti I'd be looking at options like Befuddle or Dispel Magic and what is an option for the PC is an option for NPCs too.

in all case, yess

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

yes the good question

there is absolutly no reason for a honorable god worshipper like a humakti to consider his god's power (aka sword transe) is not honorable

Your god gives you a terrific power, that is not you, that is your god.

But there  is another way in my last sentence: that is your god ==> that is your god-GM ==> that is your GM decision. She may decide that Humakt will not provide his blessing for some "fair reason" only a god could have.

 

In fact it could be interesting to imagine something (ok too complex but after all..)  like the "magnitude" of a divine spell depends on the situation (who are the opponent, who are the beneficiary, what is the intent of the prey, etc...)

 

For example

Zogzog the zorani wants to kill a Yelmite ==> Of course ZZ is happy to see it and will give all the help he can

Zogzog now wants to kill the grand mother of his tribe (KL high priestess), just because he his angry / frustrated ==> mmmm probably ZZ fully disagree...

But in fact Zogzog wants to kill the grand mother because he understand that the grand mother wants to reduce the power of the ZZ temple and gives all her favor to these cowards Kaarg's sons. Ah maybe, ZZ will help Zogzog a little bit...

 

that is a warrior example but we can extend it for other divinities and purposes.

a table like the moon effect in lunar magic:

the full intent is aligned with the divine roles (war between sun worshippers and darkness worshippers) = maximum effect

the intent is aligned with the divine roles but not with the interest of the temple = 3/4 effect

the intent is aligned with the interest of the temple but not really aligned with the divine roles = 1/2 effect

etc...

 

probably a boring rule, I will not use it or work on it (but that is not a big issue, as a GM I am the gods, and the gods work in mysterious ways)

However, you're now bringing in a whole big kettle of extra fish, as now you've decided that gods can actively participate in decision-making within the middle world. That would have quite a few repercussions you may not want.

It would also mean that the god would know that the Ogre is an Ogre, and thus Chaotic....

[Dragon]

11 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

1) Why?  What if the other participant wants to use magic?  Do they play Rochambeau to decide?

2) Again, why?  If the gift is bound to a bad geas, why does the gift (say +10% to Swords) count, but not the 
bad "no armor on your head" geas?

Between two Humakti where Honor is near paramount, if ONE participant does not agree to the rules, the duel doesn't happen. I am certain there may be a couple exceptions, but for the majority of formal duels both contestants must agree to the rules. So a single veto stops the duel. I wasn't talking about two Humakti who meet on the battlefield, we are talking formal duels. There is no Rochambeau or rolling of bones. An example of an exception would be something akin to Achilles fighting the giant where both were champions of their army. That could be called a duel I suppose, but not a formal duel.

All bets are off with members of other cults.

I was saying that Gifts must be included in the duel rules. Same with geases. I certainly did not mean that a Humakti with the geas "no armor on your head' could put on a helmet for his duel. Hence a Humakti with some gift that cannot be removed (say +10 Sword, or +1 STR) could not honorably ask the other Humakt to not use his specific weapon that does double damage when it penetrates armor. Of course, an Illuminate Humakti could ask - but that might make people suspect something odd.