Esrolia and the Holy Country

[Soccercalle]

A question. Did the High Priestesses of Nochet/Esrolia "report" to Belintar when he was alive? Or was Esrolia independent?

[French Desperate WindChild]

that is more a question of management. and your definition of "independent"

From my perspective they were autonomous to manage their domestic policy, having to obey few common laws but were unable (or less able) to decide foreign policy except for trade maybe

I see them as far more autonomous than european union countries for domestic policy but less autonomous than eu countries for foreign policy

[Soccercalle]

14 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is more a question of management. and your definition of "independent"

From my perspective they were autonomous to manage their domestic policy, having to obey few common laws but were unable (or less able) to decide foreign policy except for trade maybe

I see them as far more autonomous than european union countries for domestic policy but less autonomous than eu countries for foreign policy

Sounds reasonable,

Ok. So the God-King Belintar was like the European Commission 😉 

[svensson]

I see Belintar as a magical protector and... a padishah rather than emperor, I guess. He governed several mostly-sovereign lands as an overlord, but exercised little local control. He was more concerned with magical sovereignty than mundane rulership.

So, did the Earth Queens render taxes and a certain amount of Power to Belintar? Absolutely. So did the Uz Queens in the Shadow Plateau. But they were sovereign in their own territories beyond that.

[David Scott]

See here:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-3-the-white-bear/029-the-city-of-wonders/

[Soccercalle]

11 minutes ago, David Scott said:

See here:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/websites/pos/prince-of-sartar/chapter-3-the-white-bear/029-the-city-of-wonders/

Thanks. That was actually a very good answer to my question. I had forgot that page.

[g33k]

A thing to remember -- Holy Country was called "Holy Country" because of Belintar.

All of it -- including Esrolia -- got to have their deities visible and present, immanent in their respective Sixths.
Why would Esrolia have wanted independence from that?  It would have meant the goddesses & gods withdrawing further away from Esrolia...

[davecake]

Do we know the status the various members of the Six in the post-Belintar era, up to the current era?

Well, we do for Hendira. Her history is fairly well documented, especially in the early 1620s. 

It seems reasonable to assume that the long lived Xoroho Hellspeaker and Carvak Zirian are still alive, and still likely occupy their other positions, but are somewhat diminished in importance, at least outside their home Sixths, with the fall of Belintar. I don’t recall any other mention of them. Xoroho likely continues to be a key ally of Hendira? 

What about the others? For example, how fared Orngerin the Sophisticate in the Lunar conquest of Heortland, and if he is alive what relationship does he have with Broyan? 
Did Sednamidos have any role in the (failed) defence against the wolf pirate raids?

Verakanos Bluesmoke is said to be Governor and High King of Caladraland, and by 1621 is no longer Governor, because Valeros Highpeak is. But it’s said that Valeros ‘wants to become king’, so either Verakanos has somehow held onto the Kingship, or the clan chiefs disagreed and voted for Governor but not for High King, or more plausible to me, somehow the institution of High King has ceased to function with the death of Belintar, perhaps temporarily. The Guide says ‘He refused to relinquish the Diamond Diadem given by the dwarves to the First King and seeks to make himself king of Caladraland.’ Which implies becoming King has something to with the assent of the dwarves normally, but do we know anything more about it? Perhaps a High King is a Governor elected by the clan chiefs, that then gains the assent of others, but who? Governor sounds a very Belintar era title, so this system was probably instituted by him? But do we know if Verakanos is still around, and if he has any part to play? (Perhaps even as a potential war leader for the Warm Earth Alliance?)

 

 

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, davecake said:

What about the others? For example, how fared Orngerin the Sophisticate in the Lunar conquest of Heortland, and if he is alive what relationship does he have with Broyan?

We know Orngerin dies in 1617 (Guide p.240), effectively in the magic contest where Broyan gains the Helm and Sword and becomes King of the Vingkotlings.  With Orngerin's death, Rikard seizes Durengard and southern Heortland to become King of New Malkonwal.

7 hours ago, davecake said:

It seems reasonable to assume that the long lived Xoroho Hellspeaker and Carvak Zirian are still alive, and still likely occupy their other positions, but are somewhat diminished in importance

The interesting thing with Carvak Zirian is that he is depicted as a zzaburi, not a talar, so his role as "ruler" of the Sixth may well have been in performing the necessary magical rites vs. actual ruling.  I think the ruler of God Forgot has remained the Talar throughout this period.

As for Xoroho, likely she returns to the depths of the Shadow Plateau to formulate Darkness' plans for the future.  The figure who becomes prominent upon the surface world from there is Obash Broos-smasher (WF#6, p.12).

 

[Jeff]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:19 AM, svensson said:

I see Belintar as a magical protector and... a padishah rather than emperor, I guess. He governed several mostly-sovereign lands as an overlord, but exercised little local control. He was more concerned with magical sovereignty than mundane rulership.

So, did the Earth Queens render taxes and a certain amount of Power to Belintar? Absolutely. So did the Uz Queens in the Shadow Plateau. But they were sovereign in their own territories beyond that.

Not even that. Belintar was a sacred figure, not a political or administrative figure. That's really really hard for us moderns to wrap our head around, but Belintar's main function was to be a conduit between the Mundane World and the Gods Realm. He's a Living God, acknowledged by everyone in the Holy County. His palace was in the Hero Plane and to visit him was to enter it. At the City of Wonders, one might encounter gods and spirits, emissaries and ambassadors.

Of course people also lived in the City of Wonders - at its height (around 1600) it had perhaps 50,000 people making it bigger than Raibanth. It was vacated in 1616 after the Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death failed to produce a new incarnation of Belintar - without Belintar's presence, the City did not function for mortals. Only a few people, such as the rulers of the Sixths, could even open the paths to the City.

[scott-martin]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

It was vacated in 1616

Even if a lot of the inhabitants simply "blinked away" when the City shut down, there's probably a substantial diaspora of people out in the world now with enough deep magical lived experience to make life around them ramp up the weirdness. My first thought was of an overripe spore body bursting when it's time to spread, but now it's all about Charlotte's egg sac. 

Of course cosmic people with agendas would have tried gathering as many as they could find and that's a little hero war in itself. But with natural attrition and the inhabitants' lack of experience in more profane environments hope of collecting anything like a full set recedes from year to year.

[Joerg]

A good part of "vacating the city" may have been as prisoners of the Wolf Pirates, or as corpses due to the sacking of the city. The Gunda story in the Hero Wars box story collection suggests that mortals remained in the city for the next eight years, although cut off from the mortal world, and that the deterioration of the city in absence of Belintar had quite mundane side effects, too. At the time of publication, Greg seems to have been d'accord with that state of occupation in the City of Wonders, or at least part of it. Not necessarily a mundane part, though.

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Even if a lot of the inhabitants simply "blinked away" when the City shut down, there's probably a substantial diaspora of people out in the world now with enough deep magical lived experience to make life around them ramp up the weirdness. My first thought was of an overripe spore body bursting when it's time to spread, but now it's all about Charlotte's egg sac. 

Of course cosmic people with agendas would have tried gathering as many as they could find and that's a little hero war in itself. But with natural attrition and the inhabitants' lack of experience in more profane environments hope of collecting anything like a full set recedes from year to year.

Yep. Imagine that diaspora going to Nochet, Whitewall, New Pavis, Boldhome, Wolf Pirates, etc. Even a few go to the Lunar Empire. And many end up influencing Sartar like the Chans, Leika Black Spear, Tarkala the Lover, etc. I suspect this is the origin story for many who end up in the Sartar Magical Union.

[davecake]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

The interesting thing with Carvak Zirian is that he is depicted as a zzaburi, not a talar, so his role as "ruler" of the Sixth may well have been in performing the necessary magical rites vs. actual ruling.  I think the ruler of God Forgot has remained the Talar throughout this period.

Oh, yes. Carvak Zirian was never the ruler, but the representative. And as Jeff says, Belintar is a sacred king, not a mundane ruler - zzaburi business, not Talar business. Some other sixths sent the ruler as the representative because for them, the mundane ruler is also the sacred ruler. Carvak presumably continues right on being the ‘Mind of the Talar’. 
 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

As for Xoroho, likely she returns to the depths of the Shadow Plateau to formulate Darkness' plans for the future.  The figure who becomes prominent upon the surface world from there is Obash Broos-smasher (WF#6, p.12).

I think the Shadow Plateau has room for more than one prominent figure. And it is unlikely that a male Orlanthi troll would represent all of them, even the majority. 

[jajagappa]

21 hours ago, davecake said:

I think the Shadow Plateau has room for more than one prominent figure. And it is unlikely that a male Orlanthi troll would represent all of them, even the majority. 

Agree, but Obash is the one noted as the most prominent at the Shadow Plateau (both in WF and the Guide).  I expect Xoroho and her associates are quite busy deep within.

[Darius West]

On 5/8/2022 at 12:55 AM, Jeff said:

Yep. Imagine that diaspora going to Nochet, Whitewall, New Pavis, Boldhome, Wolf Pirates, etc. Even a few go to the Lunar Empire. And many end up influencing Sartar like the Chans, Leika Black Spear, Tarkala the Lover, etc. I suspect this is the origin story for many who end up in the Sartar Magical Union.

I'm glad to see the origins of the Sartar Magical Union being approached this way Jeff.  It makes a lot of sense, and I don't think I have heard it expressed this way before.   Good stuff, very lore friendly.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Darius West

[davecake]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:16 PM, jajagappa said:

Agree, but Obash is the one noted as the most prominent at the Shadow Plateau (both in WF and the Guide).  I expect Xoroho and her associates are quite busy deep within.

I also think that the Holy Country has room for more than one prominent troll who deals with the outside world notably. While Xoroho’s influence will fall as she seems to be allied with Hendira, and Obash’s will rise with Broyan (I would guess that Obash is related to why Broyan first hides out in the Shadow Plateau after the fall of Whitewall), I think the two of them remain just the two most prominent of many significant trolls in the greater Holy Country, and I think Xoroho is busy both with and without the Shadow Plateau, especially as a prominent leader of the Argan Argar cult, which of course still is very active outside the Shadow Plateau, as well as within it. 
I’m interested in filling out the cast of players for high politics in the Holy Country in the post-Belintar era - no reason to assume that there is a one-in, one-out rule in effect! Suggestion  for other notable figures welcome.