Is Argrath a good or at least acceptable Orlanthi (hero)?

[Joerg]

  

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure we disagree mein freunde !

At least, there is good reason to expect that we may find agreement. But let's do so in an appropriately named thread.

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I will not challenge any of the timeline you describe (for sure you are one of my prefered source, will not challenge it 😛 , at least in the forum)

Please do challenge those arguments if anything feels wrong to you - they might be flawed or hyperbolic.

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but the (hi)story you provide is not in opposition with my point.

I make a difference between Garundyer (hero type 1 in my typology) and Argrath (hero type 2 in my typology)

Garundyer seems to me exactly what Orlanth priests would expect from an orlanthi hero,

Every major Orlanthi hero brings in something weird and hitherto untried.

Garundyer has weird associates too, at the very least that Iron Sage and his fire-breathing royal cousin, and possibly those weird henotheists from the Chariot of Lightning sect. He is going to cry havoc in Arkati/Tanisoran Safelster and seems to be able to have fun with the Kingdom of War, Emperor Takenegi Phargentes II, and the Chaos conspiracy in Karia.

 

In the Second Age, the Orlanthi priesthood supported Great Living Heroes, starting with Hardrad Hardslaughter, but the concept was used both by traditionalists (Renvald Meldekbane) and dragonfriends (Varnakol the Mangler) against the God Learners. Orlmandan the Red was the leader of the Traditionalist priests who lost against Isgangdrang Dragonspeaker, who then instituted the entire Third Council as worshipped heroes (including Ingolf Dragonfriend whose magic did not really require such ballast). (Isgang)Drang lost against Alakoring, who committed suicide by mocking an aldryami hero.

Garundyer comes from the same region as Alakoring. His hero powers so far appear to be of a martial nature, not yet designed to deal with a specific foe, but the catalogue of possible opponents is long, and starts with five Arkats (one of whom might be Argrath - that encounter might spawn Argrath's relationship with Ardinyar Kocholangsson).

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Argarth seems to me so weird that Orlanthi priest would have some concern with him :

Who are the (capital h) Heroes of Orlanth?

Let's start with (future) King Heort, scion of Korol's Vingkotling lineage, a wind shaman and shapeshifter.

We might look at some of his contemporaries, like Vogarth Strong Man, Aram ya Udram, or his buddy Vathmai Entrulsson.

Next are Lokamayadon and possibly Rastalulf.

In comes Harmast Barefoot, and as supporting cast Makla Man of Ralios and Hendrik of the hidden folk near the Footprint.

Next we have a couple of Darkness slayers, most notably Hardrast Hardslaughter.

Then we get Obduran the Flyer, who proved that you could be both a true dragonfriend and an excellent Orlanthi.

What follows is a weird period of Dragonfriends, a troll hero of Orlanth, a Tusker rider becoming the prototype Tusk Rider and a few more quite heroic foes of the Machine God,

Alakoring Dragonbreaker initiated the doom of the EWF, alongside other non-Orlanthi heroes from Carmania and Dara Happa.

The next major Orlanthi Hero seems to be Jannisor Moonchaser.

Arim the Pauper and Sartar are heroic founders of their respective dynasties and kingdoms, starting traditions of heroic kings, occasionally verging on the capital H for hero. Yarandros Charge-Crazy possibly had the single most powerful Orlanthi kingdom of the Third Age up to the Dragonrise, extending his reign from the Cross Line separating him from Belintar's Holy Country all the way into Saird, but doesn't seem to have become King of Dragon Pass (and seems to have been slain in a rebellion led by the Colymar tribe). (The heirs of Jonat Bigbear and the rulers of Jorstland might wish to contest that claim.) According to Tarkalor, his older brother Sarotar could have changed the world but for Esrolian treachery.

 

Garundyer is not one of those heroic kings (his king is one of his boon companions), much like Renvald Meldekbane or Jannisor Moonhater. Argrath does choose that king's path.

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- what if Argrath, using all his magic and magicians, finally was defeated ?

Another Jannisor Moonhater, then. Advanced to the lip of the Red Moon, falling to treachery. And (of course) another Arkat - a different form of the same name, really. Or another Hendrik, leaving behind a cabal of strange magicians to carry forth his inheritance.

Argrath collects almost as many stupid bad defeats as Jon Snow in the TV canon of Game of Thrones. His first sortie from Pavis killed off a majority of his initial White Bull followers. The utter defeat at Yoran sends him onto his Lightbringers' Quest as a desperate last-breath action.

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- what if Argrath was not able to become the Orlanth Rex priest ?

Interesting. What other routes could he have taken to fulfill his vow to take down the Red Moon?

As a Khan of Khans, he might have stepped (pun not intended) into the stirrups of Sheng Seleris, rather than relying on the Orlanthi to topple the Red Moon.

As the leader of a new Unity Council, he might have worked to unite humans and the Elder Races against the Chaos from the north, possibly starting in the Elder Wilds.

As the victorious Arkat, he might have led Safelster first to regain Tanisor, then rounding up the Lunar Empire from the West.

As a dragon mystic, he might have united Kralorela under him following the vacancy left behind by Godunya before striking at the Lunars, or he might have founded a new EWF using Belintar's more sustainable methods to create a Proximate Holy Realm.

As some kind of Belintar Reborn (or resurrector of the Only Old One), he might have used the Holy Country as his initial power base, using Silver Age heroes.

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- what if Argrath showed all his magics, friends, etc... in a Sartar without Lunar domination, without big issue, just a "true traditionalist orlanthi kingdom" ?

A true traditionalist Orlanthi society with traditionalist priests being happy would have temples at the top of a hierarchy of disjunct clans, none of that Rex nonsense. They abandoned that High King nonsense when Hardrad Hardslaughter ended the tyranny of the collectors of Arkat's Command tribute (an extension of the Kitori tribute, directing some of the income to Dagori Inkarth).

Argrath defined himself from Lunar domination. Without that, his all encompassing passion would not have driven him.

(Basically, that is the "what if" scenario if Palashee had not been killed by Phargentes after the destruction of most of the Lunar forces at Karnge Farm, but vice versa. Would the Eel-Ariash have sent a Sar-eel bride for Jarolar or Jarosar?)

From my musings above, that could have been a "new Belintar" approach, an "improved EWF" approach, or a "New Unity Battle" one.

 

51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

would the Orlanth priests say he his a good Orlanthi ?

Much of Argrath's lifepath might be seen as the Pit of Strangers segueing into the Ritual of the Net. Argrath travels the Pit of Strangers to excess with all his foreign companions, but that is really very much like a good Orlanthi. Exotic and strange friends are the hallmark of Orlanth's court, with Heler, (Y)Elmal(io)/Hyalor, his maternal siblings Quivin, Inora, Yinkin,  and the Lightbringer weirdo types (including Eurmal!).

 

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

What follows is a weird period of Dragonfriends, a troll hero of Orlanth, a Tusker rider becoming the prototype Tusk Rider and a few more quite heroic foes of the Machine God,

One of those was Aringor Darstalsson, who successfully performed the Lightbringers Quest and brought back Narnarra the Greater, however we know little about either of them,. except that they helped defeat the Shadow Empire and God Learners.

 

[Jeff]

Let me just answer the underlying proposition - of course Argrath is a "good or at least acceptable Orlanthi hero". He pretty much defines what an Orlanthi hero is. Remember, from a writer's perspective, Greg created the Orlanthi around Argrath, not vice versa. Now we are all playing RQ in the Third Age as the Hero Wars are underway, so we don't see things from that perspective, but that is how the Orlanthi were created as part of the setting - as the people Argrath comes out of and leads.

Greg created plenty of Orlanth's myths to echo Argrath's deeds - Orlanth and the Strange Gods, that parallels Argrath and his Praxian, Wolf Pirate, and draconic allies. The EWF was created as backstory behind the Hero Wars and the Dragontooth Runners. And the list goes on.

So with that in mind, it should not be surprising that Argrath manages to unify his people and lead them against the Lunar Empire, and was able to survive setbacks. He literally was created by Greg to be that hero for them! Now of course, there are people who distrust him, have rivalries with him, dispute his qualifications or competence - the same existed with Alexander of the Romances, Arthur, Achilles, and every other hero Greg was inspired by.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

In the parts of our campaign inspired by the highly recommended @Nick Brooke Black Spear scenario, we travelled to Pavis, along the way asking about "that Argrath guy (TM)".  Our GM decided to leave the question somewhat open.  Later GMs have followed this ambivalence.  IMO, if Argrath is a perfect archetypal Orlanthi hero, that removes a lot of interesting tension.  YGMV.

1. Lagertha asked Yendessa (a Babs Gor rune lady we met at Tourney Altar) about Argrath.  "He is a consummate Orlanthi."  (Based on the tone, you had to be there, not renderable in text obviously!) the Vingan took this as implied criticism.  But, as Wisdom is one or Orlanth's Virtues, she decided not to press the matter.

2. When Lagertha returned to the tent, she asked Hengist (our NPC who is leader of the Brotherhood of Death), "What does Argrath admire most in others?" The man thought for a minute, and replied, "Skill, and loyalty to their friends and comrades."  The women felt Hengist was using a version of a traditional Sartarite phrase, but omitting a reference to devotion to the gods and loyalty to kings.

p.s. Argrath has treated our PCs very generously, so we currently like him - some have insanely high Loyalties.  My character is at 75% and I think that's the low for all the characters.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[mfbrandi]

25 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

IMO, if Argrath is a perfect archetypal Orlanthi hero, that removes a lot of interesting tension.  YGMV.

Well … that still leaves open the question of the relationship between a people and their archetypal hero. I mean, just look at Achilles!

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In the parts of our campaign inspired by the highly recommended @Nick Brooke Black Spear scenario, we travelled to Pavis, along the way asking about "that Argrath guy (TM)".  Our GM decided to leave the question somewhat open.  Later GMs have followed this ambivalence.  IMO, if Argrath is a perfect archetypal Orlanthi hero, that removes a lot of interesting tension.  YGMV.

1. Lagertha asked Yendessa (a Babs Gor rune lady we met at Tourney Altar) about Argrath.  "He is a consummate Orlanthi."  (Based on the tone, you had to be there, not renderable in text obviously!) the Vingan took this as implied criticism.  But, as Wisdom is one or Orlanth's Virtues, she decided not to press the matter.

2. When Lagertha returned to the tent, she asked Hengist (our NPC who is leader of the Brotherhood of Death), "What does Argrath admire most in others?" The man thought for a minute, and replied, "Skill, and loyalty to their friends and comrades."  The women felt Hengist was using a version of a traditional Sartarite phrase, but omitting a reference to devotion to the gods and loyalty to kings.

p.s. Argrath has treated our PCs very generously, so we currently like him - some have insanely high Loyalties.  My character is at 75% and I think that's the low for all the characters.

All heroes are problematic, whether they are culturally appropriate or not. They exist in this world and the other, making them very dangerous to be around for folk who mainly want to survive in the mundane world! 

But Orlanth is the god of heroes. He's their patron - he favours heroes and aids them. He undertook the Lightbringers Quest to revive the world, and has made sure there is a place for heroes in the world. More than any other cult out there, Orlanth digs heroes. And since heroes always push against their gods, Orlanth's cult likely gives heroes a lot of leeway to do just that.

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Well … that still leaves open the question of the relationship between a people and their archetypal hero. I mean, just look at Achilles!

Exactly. Achilles was THE Greek hero par excellence. But he was constantly in tension with almost everyone around him.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

9 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Well … that still leaves open the question of the relationship between a people and their archetypal hero. I mean, just look at Achilles!

Somewhat OT, but which Greek God do you think is the prototype for Achilles?  To clarify - I certainly agree that Achilles was the great Greek hero.  But I'm not sure he is the archetype of Zeus, their rough equivalent of Orlanth.  One can go against Achilles without offending Zeus.  Whilst going against Argrath seems like going against Orlanth.

For Odysseus, I'd say Athena.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck
sorry for all the edits to clarify...

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

which Greek God do you think is the prototype for Achilles?

Wiser heads than mine would have a better idea. IMO, I don’t think the Greeks thought x is a hero because x exemplifies the virtues (or flaws) of god, y. I also grew up thinking that the Greeks didn’t see the Olympians as moral exemplars — that is why I liked the Greek myths: a break from bible stories. I may be wrong, but I doubt I will shake that attitude at this late date.

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For Odysseus, I'd say Athena.

Well, they are both supposed to be wise, but he is whingeing, womanising, and devious, which maybe doesn’t fit her. (I see Athena as like Supergirl: the powerful woman who upholds the patriarchy — a “class traitor” if you like.) Isn’t Odysseus supposed to be more of a Trickster figure? “That man of twists and turns” is Fagles’ translation, I think — which might make him a Hermes figure if he must be compared to a god.

And so back to Argrath as Orlanthi hero: that needn’t mean that he is exemplary in an imitatio Orlanth sense. But only @Joerg can say exactly what he meant.

Edited October 1, 2022 by mfbrandi
punctuation

[Rodney Dangerduck]

16 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

I also grew up thinking that the Greeks didn’t see the Olympians as moral exemplars — that is why I liked the Greek myths

As did I!  On a separate thread, I push for "normal" characters to be heroes.  Players who don't buy 100% into "Honor and Death" or "Hate Oathbreakers" or "By the Light" because they realize, perhaps with bad experience, that Humakt, Babs Gor and Yelmalio are imperfect role models.

Arguably, Glorantha is different than Greece.  Which means comparing Argrath to Achilles is problematic.

Athena advised Odysseus and/or provided him with many of his tricks and disguises.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[mfbrandi]

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Which means comparing Argrath to Achilles is problematic.

I am not trying to say Argrath is Achilles, just that one should ask what the relationship between a people and “its” hero is. Achilles is a petulant child who learns a measure of compassion rather late in his short life. He may have “martial virtues” — which we imagine were important to Homer’s audience/readership, who might have to fight themselves — but these don’t seem to be unproblematic for Homer: the Iliad is a rather chilling read.

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Athena advised Odysseus and/or provided him with many of his tricks and disguises.

Sure, she is his patron, but that doesn’t mean she is him. Still, you may have a better feel for this than I do.

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

going against Argrath seems like going against Orlanth

Why is that? I can see that when trying to rouse the Orlanthi rabble, Argrath might want to make it seem so, but would they go for that? I am not the person to speak authoritatively, but I would imagine that 3rd Age Orlanthi have some stories about Arkat and can see Argrath as an Arkat-type hero (Deciever, Betrayer, Destroyer), even if they don’t think that he is literally Arkat come again. If they do, then siding with Argrath is going to seem like doing a deal with the Devil — Gbaji, Wakboth, or Kajabor: take your pick — isn’t it? Taking the long view, that Devil’s bargain may be wise — because it gets the gods out of human affairs — but for the short-term goal of throwing off the Imperial yoke, one can expect a high price to pay, no?

Now, I can never get a handle on the Orlanthi: they preach freedom, but they seem conservative. IRL, this is common enough, but are the Orlanthi supposed to be the NRA or the Proud Boys? Anyway, the ideology of Orlanth has him as a rule-breaker, an innovator, and someone willing to shed a lot of blood to get his will enacted or to satisfy his pride, doesn’t it? (Forgive me if I have that wrong, he is a massive blind spot for me.) Wouldn’t that make Argrath a pretty good Orlanthi hero, in the imitatio Orlanth sense? Doesn’t mean he won’t throw you — and Orlanth — under the bus, but being like Orlanth is not the same as taking tender care of Orlanth and his people, is it? Of course, if your hero does seem to embody your god (rather than being an ambassador for him), it might be hard not to follow him over the cliff.

TL;DR: I don’t know.

Edited October 1, 2022 by mfbrandi
spelling

[svensson]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Exactly. Achilles was THE Greek hero par excellence. But he was constantly in tension with almost everyone around him.

Achilles was a much trouble to his allies as he was to his enemies.

Anybody think of anybody else who might fit that description? 🤣

Folks, Argrath was developed to be a Hero that gamers could empathize and identify with. He was specifically NOT designed to a Persival or Aragorn. Argrath has faults, blind-spots, past mistakes that come back to bite him in the ass, and all the other symptoms of being a human being. He is not an iconic statue or an ideal.

I've been a military historian since I was 12 years old. Like most us, I cut my teeth on the World Wars. I was very, very lucky to have a mentor early on in the process who taught me a very important lesson when dealing with historical figures [especially the villains]... He said, 'Remember that each of these people was a human being, not some statue or a representative name for a given trait. Hitler isn't the archetypal 'Racist'. He was Adolf Hitler, son of Alois and Klara Hitler. He was human. He had a temper. He had PTSD, which fueled his hatreds. You have to look at the whole man to understand how he became what he was, not just the summary.'

Edited October 1, 2022 by svensson

[mfbrandi]

30 minutes ago, svensson said:

Argrath was developed to be a Hero that gamers could empathize and identify with. He was specifically NOT designed to [be] a Persival

I don’t know though: as a naïve hick from the sticks, the Welshman is quite “relatable”, no? A bit of a Rurik the Restless. (I suppose it depends on the teller of the tale.)

This comment is really just an excuse to plug the absolutely stunning film by Éric Rohmer, Perceval le Gallois.

[Eff]

14 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Somewhat OT, but which Greek God do you think is the prototype for Achilles?  To clarify - I certainly agree that Achilles was the great Greek hero.  But I'm not sure he is the archetype of Zeus, their rough equivalent of Orlanth.  One can go against Achilles without offending Zeus.  Whilst going against Argrath seems like going against Orlanth.

For Odysseus, I'd say Athena.

This is perhaps a slight divergence from said divergence, but given the story of Achilles fighting the river Scamander in the Iliad, it's possible Achilles was identified with Zeus or Apollo at some point because both of them have "kaoskampf" myths. But I suspect that by the time of the developed Achilles hero-cult that Greek heroes weren't identified with particular gods except via regional/tutelary associations. Which would suggest that, eg, Theseus would be associated with Athena as the protector of Athens, along with his familial connection to Poseidon, because of his legendary understanding as the "founder" of Athens.

Of course, hero-cult in Glorantha is more subordinate.

[Jeff]

Worth looking at the very first presentation of Prince Argrath - in what was the first published appearance of Glorantha:

"Prince Argrath, like many natives of the ruined klngdom of Sartar, left his backward land while quite young. Unlike most others, he returned from a career of adventures which gained him his Hero status. He also brought back his blood-brother band of barbarians. who became the .core of the Free Army. He rallied the peoples of the valley under the banner of Old Sartar, and changed thelr tactics from murdering tax collectors to raiding the Lunar cities. Later Argrath was joined by hls far-flung friends, who gladly stood by his saddle in troubled times."

Also -

"Argrath began assembling his army after he was driven from his home on Starfire Ridge, when he took refuge among the nomads of Prax. Most Praxian tribes had strict laws and customs preventing foreigners from holding positions, authority, or power, but there were several secret societies whose member crossed all social or political boundaries. Incredibly, Argrath worked his way to supremacy among three of them – the Twin Spears, the Sword Brothers, and the Bullocks, and formed the kernel of his army. After he received the gift of the Dragon’s Teeth, Argrath returned to Dragon Pass, with his White Bull warriors, and volunteers from the Barbarian Horde.

At that time Lunar influence was at a low, having been recently beaten in battle by raiders from Prax. No puppet ruler say in Wintertop. Instead, thieving regiments of tax-collectors roamed at will, terrorising the people and disrupting their attempts to organize. With a brilliant raid, Argrath succeeded in calling enough support to drive the enemy out, then turned to invade Lunar territory. He raised the banner of Old Sartar and re-established trade lines between Prax and the Holy Country. The clans were organised into economic co-operative ventures, centered upon the forts. Their troops, when called, form the "militia "of the Sartar Army."

and

"The Sartar Magical Union was an extraordinary innovation of Argrath's. While the Lunar Schools were trained together and had comparable magical power, the mounted battalions that Argrath organised were a dizzying array of bush priests, good witches, twisted warlocks, wandering monks, crazed holymen, a mystic or two, and various masters of talismanic devices. Yet Argrath melded them together by creating new secret societies, and it is a compliment to his skills that he could put together such diverse and often hostile individuals into such effect and compact fighting units. It indicates a high understanding of magical principles which should have been far beyond Argrath's own skill or experience.

The more powerful of the magicians were relatives of the Storm god, who had been head of the local pantheon since Sartar first came.

The Barbarian Horde was made up of Praxian warriors who owed Argrath a favor or two, or who were lured by the hope of Lunar plunder. Either reason easily excited them to battle, and when war gathered in Dragon Pass, they mustered at the fringes, awaiting duty and opportunity."

These two passages are the basis of defining the Hero Argrath. One more is worth mentioning:

"The Dragonteeth Runners were a gift from Argrath from an Ancestral Dragon, and were normally kept in a pouch at the Prince's side. Whenever desired, the units appear next to the prince, and after they are slain they may re-appear if Sartar is allied to a living Dragon. They do not count in stacking, and may reflect a bad magical attack upon the sender."

There's our contours for the Hero. Now it leaves everyone plenty of room to interpret - was Argrath a cynical but charismatic manipulator, was he a religious fanatic, was he a footloose adventuring rogue who found himself with great responsibilities, or was he seeking to redeem his ancestors and his people? Or maybe a bit of all of this? Regardless of our interpretation of Argrath the mundane individual, we know that he very much embodies Greg's Hero Archetype for Glorantha, as Greg took his hero Argat (who defeated Gbaji and his empire in a Great War) and placed him in Dragon Pass to fight Gbaji-cum-Red Goddess and her empire (Arkat and Gbaji get their own story a few years later with Cults of Terror).

[svensson]

@Jeff There is a whole crew on the board here who only see [or just continually mention] the negatives of Argrath. Some have even questioned his Hero status.

Argrath was a man of many parts, not all of them good to be sure. I see Argrath as the modern Arkat, the harbinger of great change and ending of an Age. That much is obvious to anyone who's read The Glorantha Sourcebook, much less delved into the apocrypha arcanus of Glorantha. Parse his motives as you like, but Greg Stafford didn't build paragons of virtue. Glorantha was built by relatable personalities, by human beings, with all the warts and all that come with it.

[Jeff]

11 minutes ago, svensson said:

@Jeff There is a whole crew on the board here who only see [or just continually mention] the negatives of Argrath. Some have even questioned his Hero status.

Argrath was a man of many parts, not all of them good to be sure. I see Argrath as the modern Arkat, the harbinger of great change and ending of an Age. That much is obvious to anyone who's read The Glorantha Sourcebook, much less delved into the apocrypha arcanus of Glorantha. Parse his motives as you like, but Greg Stafford didn't build paragons of virtue. Glorantha was built by relatable personalities, by human beings, with all the warts and all that come with it.

Honestly I find that "crew to be very boring and tedious. You can make Argrath the villain of your campaign - certainly from the Lunar Empire's perspective, that is his role (just as Alexander was a villain in Zoroastrian sources, and is both hero and villain in many Roman sources). You can make him the moral exemplar in your campaign - although, as you correctly observe, Greg rarely built paragons of virtue (even Greg's beloved Arthur has misdeeds). I personally view Argrath (and the other heroes) as remarkable and fascinating individuals, who did remarkable deeds and co-exist in the realm of myth and legend. But they also each did some terrible deeds - Argrath gave Furthest over to his companion Mularik Ironeye and then later arranged his murder. Like Alexander he adopted foreign ways, and even accommodated Lunar cults and deities (such as Yara Aranis). He spoke with dragons and revived (at least in some manner) the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. But he was also loyal to his friends (of which he had many) and was by all accounts an inspiring, clever, and remarkable individual. 

[Eff]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

@Jeff There is a whole crew on the board here who only see [or just continually mention] the negatives of Argrath. Some have even questioned his Hero status.

Argrath was a man of many parts, not all of them good to be sure. I see Argrath as the modern Arkat, the harbinger of great change and ending of an Age. That much is obvious to anyone who's read The Glorantha Sourcebook, much less delved into the apocrypha arcanus of Glorantha. Parse his motives as you like, but Greg Stafford didn't build paragons of virtue. Glorantha was built by relatable personalities, by human beings, with all the warts and all that come with it.

I'm not sure what positives of Argrath there are, because if we accept his openness to foreign ways as a positive but also those foreign Lunar ways as from Gbaji/the Red Goddess, aren't those a negative? Conversely, if we accept his opposition to Gbaji/the Red Goddess as a positive, his cooperation with the servants and idolators of Gbaji becomes a negative, doesn't it? 

Perhaps it might be easier to articulate the things Argrath does that are clearly positive, or invent them if they're absent? Even then, we would have to carefully brush over the Sable genocide, whatever happens to create the Wolfrunners, etc. Which is quite doable with a sufficiently critical eye on the sources- but with that level of critical analysis, it becomes more difficult to conceive of any human Argrath beyond the layered propaganda narratives and formal literary structures.

[Shiningbrow]

I think the answer is somewhat obvious...

If he succeeds, he's a true Orlanthi Hero.

If he fails, then he's obviously not.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

If he fails, then he's obviously not.

Aw no, that can't be so. Heroes that never ultimately fail.... Tell me you are making a joke Shiningbrow. Or someone else tell me he is correct and Orlanthi heroes are never the losers... Or perhaps Orlanthi do not worship thems that lose (either would truly make me sad... my fave sports hero is mighty Casey!)... I prefer to have heroes that can fail! It's what makes them heroes to my mind. Well off to research this, cause ya know, having a "never failing hero trope" sounds...

(shakes dice... gets a 17 and consults rumour table)...

A) too awful to contemplate!

Edited October 2, 2022 by Bill the barbarian

[Rodney Dangerduck]

11 hours ago, Eff said:

Conversely, if we accept his opposition to Gbaji/the Red Goddess as a positive, his cooperation with the servants and idolators of Gbaji becomes a negative, doesn't it? 

Maybe everybody is our group is misreading the Argrath material, but we all interpret it as Argrath using large amounts of quick and dirty Illumination to create his powerful new forces.  And not "sometime in the far future", but early, circa 1626.  This is very problematic from both an Orlanth and an Arkat perspective.

The Gloranthan PCs, who "don't know much" about illumination, can ignore it for now, but their Earthly humans, who have read Cults of Terror (and more), are very skeptical of Argrath.  He's taking dangerous shortcuts, hard to reconcile as a "good" Orlanth hero.  

Are we misreading the material?

Edited October 2, 2022 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Darius West]

The Hero Wars seems to be an amalgam of First Age illuminism, EWF, and God Learnerism in collision.  I wonder what new things will emerge?

Personally I like the fact that members of Lunar Cults who quit and become Orlanthi are stuck with the Lunar Cycle, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.  After all, they still get the benefits of the Glow Line and the Full Moon, and potentially the Temple of the Reaching Storm.

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

quick and dirty Illumination

Isn’t this what happened to Zorak Zoran? And man, I really stings. If an illuminant is burning from the inside, stand well back. Do not return to a lit firework.

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

This is very problematic from both an Orlanth and an Arkat perspective.

Aren’t the watchwords of the Orlanthi religion — seen capaciously — “there is always another way” and “violence is always an option”? These are sometimes seen as being in opposition, but one can combine them: there is always another way to unleash Hell. Arguably, this goes all the way back to Orlanth’s accepting Death from Trickster and using it on Yelm. Then the question is whether Orlanth is a numpty who acts impulsively and lives to regret it, or is subtle and playing the long game. In the long run, murdering the Sun worked out just fine, but at the time — oi!

So just how un-Orlanth is improvising weapons of mass destruction? If I were the cattle raider on the Clapham omnibus, I would be terrified by Argrath’s shenanigans, but if I were Orlanth themself, wouldn’t I be looking down fondly and saying, “That’s my boy”?

Again, Orlanth and the Orlanthi are a blindspot for me — or maybe grit in my eyes — so I may have that all wrong.

As for Arkat (illuminated among the Aldryami, one supposes), surely he would stop at nothing to further his war with himself/plunge into darkness — ZZ Arkat was always in the cards, even if there was a post-war period of reflection in the Autarchy/Empire of Peace. So problematic how? Or problematic for the bystanders because Arkati, all-too-Arkati?

[Eff]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe everybody is our group is misreading the Argrath material, but we all interpret it as Argrath using large amounts of quick and dirty Illumination to create his powerful new forces.  And not "sometime in the far future", but early, circa 1626.  This is very problematic from both an Orlanth and an Arkat perspective.

The Gloranthan PCs, who "don't know much" about illumination, can ignore it for now, but their Earthly humans, who have read Cults of Terror (and more), are very skeptical of Argrath.  He's taking dangerous shortcuts, hard to reconcile as a "good" Orlanth hero.  

Are we misreading the material?

I don't think so. I think that Argrath is definitely an ambiguous figure at best (unless you take it as given that he's good) because of how he presents himself as resolutely anti-Lunar and then he goes and picks up some Lunars to keep in his court. Even if you adopt a level of cultural relativism where there's no moral qualities to the struggle between Sartar and the Lunars, then the presentation of that moral valence by Argrath does retain an overt hypocrisy with his embrace of Lunars in other areas. 

This is distinct from Arkat, also an ambiguous figure, but ambiguous in being genuinely dedicated to the destruction of Nysalor's empire without any of Argrath's ostensible hypocrises. The ambiguity there is whether what Arkat does is worth it, justified, or even in response to anything real, but Argrath's ambiguity centers around what he actually believes and desires, whether he's an actor or acted upon, etc.

To contrast, Alexander the Great of Macedonia's war against Persia is not quite so ambiguous- Alexander seems to have been motivated by his father's pan-Hellenic project to crush the Achaemenid Empire, and then his invasions of India and Central Asia were driven by the desire to expand Greek-speaker dominion to the "Outer Sea". 

But pan-Orlanthi nationalism is not quite a plausible motivating factor for Argrath and obviously looks significantly more dubious in our eyes. Now, Argrath being ambiguous is fine in light of the whole Glorantha cavalcade starting with a two-player board game. I think the difficulties come in for me with the extent to which there's a kind of atrocity arms race in the materials that deal with the future and some previewed materials- Argrath installing a new patriarchal leader of the Sables who exterminates two-fifths of their adult population and forcibly adopts the children in order to eliminate Lunar supporters, Argrath possibly leading a genocidal campaign against the Telmori to equip his Wolfrunner unit- these are things which move beyond ambiguity to me and into monstrosity. Especially when the Lunars are placed in the role of Gbaji-worshipers, because then it begins to seem like these crimes against humanity are perhaps intended to be justifiable, if regrettable, actions against the end of the world.

[scott-martin]

On 10/1/2022 at 6:46 AM, mfbrandi said:

I don’t know though: as a naïve hick from the sticks, the Welshman is quite “relatable”, no? A bit of a Rurik the Restless. (I suppose it depends on the teller of the tale.)

 

Peredur is endlessly relatable and is in fact my old lady mentor's favorite. Some people have trouble with his rarefied cousin but the grails in question are arguably so different that comparisons break down.

To cut back to the origin of the thread, I'm not convinced capital-H Heroes are that common even in Orlanthite history. On the WBRM map, the home team fields a total of one (1) with some friendly free agents . . . and this is the terminal third age, culmination of generations of cosmic tension, etc. etc. This might be because the WBRM epic actually drives other Heroes and Hero candidates away from the other guy's drama like magnets turned to the same polarity. They have their own shit to do and despite the allure of a good seat for all the drama ultimately end up doing said shit far from the noise. But someone like Garundyer manages to remain aloof long enough that he doesn't get a counter for the period of time the game covers.

IMG most of the famous people of history are exemplary and extraordinary (and might aspire to a demigod role) without undertaking a visible "hero's journey." They innovate within their cultural framework (local heroplane) but rarely stray long or far beyond except to bring something necessary back . . . and once they retrieve it and incorporate it into their community, life goes on largely as before. They don't really transform or create. They renew. Many of them are actually inherently conservative (small c) in the sense that they spend their lives working to restore a world order that has broken down. They aren't really revolutionaries unless that world order has become the problem. Their heroquesting is largely conventional and devotional, and I think when we go to the way they are remembered by posterity their innovations were largely accidental and desperate. After all, deliberate innovators, luciferian or faustian figures, tend to be reviled as capital-V Villains like Loko or the EWF heavies. Orlanthites who follow them stop following Orlanth.

I would consider Harmast a capital-H Hero and he is interesting because a lot of historical authorities have tried to limit him to the devotional role of a priest. However, having reviewed his hagiography, he emulates a figure he calls "Orlanth" at a time in Glorantha when that figure was banned and forgotten by everyone else. He basically has to make it up as he goes, drawing similar people in with him until they demonstrate the LBQ works. His god is alive. Others looking for a god can do as he did, the hero paths are open to those who would learn and follow. Contradictions and controversies have largely been closed off after centuries of initial debate and then near-universal veneration. His story is almost used up as a cultural force unless someone heroically feeds new life into it. That magnificent figure he invented is mostly just Orlanth now.

I'm still weighing Sartar. A famous guy who changed the course of history, sure. But was he a capital-H Hero or just a genius in the right place at the right time? Was John the Baptist the messiah? Did he remake the universe in his own image or just put some tribes together? Where is the line? I think a lot of the people in the list really just put some tribes together, in one sense or another. Incremental disruption that leads to a higher-order system. Evolution. Maybe a few did it so well they are revered as demigods and receive collateral worship to this day, trading a unique subcult spell in return. I think Ethilrist would have something tart to say about that.

Is Argrath good? Orlanthites consider bickering one of their religious rights. They'll bicker over it until they run out of breath or get distracted by a shiny object over the next hill. But I think the ones who follow in his shoes will stop worrying so much about whether they're even "orlanthi" any more. They wander off to the next thing. The ones left behind, happier with the status quo or at least not as willing to reach beyond, will shudder at his name. They don't live where I live. They're mostly interesting to me as distant abstractions, a half-forgotten dream.

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by scott-martin
fixing a sentence so i'd might as well extend the conclusion