Joerg Posted September 30, 2022 Report Share Posted September 30, 2022 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: I m not sure we disagree mein freunde ! At least, there is good reason to expect that we may find agreement. But let's do so in an appropriately named thread. 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: I will not challenge any of the timeline you describe (for sure you are one of my prefered source, will not challenge it 😛 , at least in the forum) Please do challenge those arguments if anything feels wrong to you - they might be flawed or hyperbolic. 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: but the (hi)story you provide is not in opposition with my point. I make a difference between Garundyer (hero type 1 in my typology) and Argrath (hero type 2 in my typology) Garundyer seems to me exactly what Orlanth priests would expect from an orlanthi hero, Every major Orlanthi hero brings in something weird and hitherto untried. Garundyer has weird associates too, at the very least that Iron Sage and his fire-breathing royal cousin, and possibly those weird henotheists from the Chariot of Lightning sect. He is going to cry havoc in Arkati/Tanisoran Safelster and seems to be able to have fun with the Kingdom of War, Emperor Takenegi Phargentes II, and the Chaos conspiracy in Karia. In the Second Age, the Orlanthi priesthood supported Great Living Heroes, starting with Hardrad Hardslaughter, but the concept was used both by traditionalists (Renvald Meldekbane) and dragonfriends (Varnakol the Mangler) against the God Learners. Orlmandan the Red was the leader of the Traditionalist priests who lost against Isgangdrang Dragonspeaker, who then instituted the entire Third Council as worshipped heroes (including Ingolf Dragonfriend whose magic did not really require such ballast). (Isgang)Drang lost against Alakoring, who committed suicide by mocking an aldryami hero. Garundyer comes from the same region as Alakoring. His hero powers so far appear to be of a martial nature, not yet designed to deal with a specific foe, but the catalogue of possible opponents is long, and starts with five Arkats (one of whom might be Argrath - that encounter might spawn Argrath's relationship with Ardinyar Kocholangsson). 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: Argarth seems to me so weird that Orlanthi priest would have some concern with him : Who are the (capital h) Heroes of Orlanth? Let's start with (future) King Heort, scion of Korol's Vingkotling lineage, a wind shaman and shapeshifter. We might look at some of his contemporaries, like Vogarth Strong Man, Aram ya Udram, or his buddy Vathmai Entrulsson. Next are Lokamayadon and possibly Rastalulf. In comes Harmast Barefoot, and as supporting cast Makla Man of Ralios and Hendrik of the hidden folk near the Footprint. Next we have a couple of Darkness slayers, most notably Hardrast Hardslaughter. Then we get Obduran the Flyer, who proved that you could be both a true dragonfriend and an excellent Orlanthi. What follows is a weird period of Dragonfriends, a troll hero of Orlanth, a Tusker rider becoming the prototype Tusk Rider and a few more quite heroic foes of the Machine God, Alakoring Dragonbreaker initiated the doom of the EWF, alongside other non-Orlanthi heroes from Carmania and Dara Happa. The next major Orlanthi Hero seems to be Jannisor Moonchaser. Arim the Pauper and Sartar are heroic founders of their respective dynasties and kingdoms, starting traditions of heroic kings, occasionally verging on the capital H for hero. Yarandros Charge-Crazy possibly had the single most powerful Orlanthi kingdom of the Third Age up to the Dragonrise, extending his reign from the Cross Line separating him from Belintar's Holy Country all the way into Saird, but doesn't seem to have become King of Dragon Pass (and seems to have been slain in a rebellion led by the Colymar tribe). (The heirs of Jonat Bigbear and the rulers of Jorstland might wish to contest that claim.) According to Tarkalor, his older brother Sarotar could have changed the world but for Esrolian treachery. Garundyer is not one of those heroic kings (his king is one of his boon companions), much like Renvald Meldekbane or Jannisor Moonhater. Argrath does choose that king's path. 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: - what if Argrath, using all his magic and magicians, finally was defeated ? Another Jannisor Moonhater, then. Advanced to the lip of the Red Moon, falling to treachery. And (of course) another Arkat - a different form of the same name, really. Or another Hendrik, leaving behind a cabal of strange magicians to carry forth his inheritance. Argrath collects almost as many stupid bad defeats as Jon Snow in the TV canon of Game of Thrones. His first sortie from Pavis killed off a majority of his initial White Bull followers. The utter defeat at Yoran sends him onto his Lightbringers' Quest as a desperate last-breath action. 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: - what if Argrath was not able to become the Orlanth Rex priest ? Interesting. What other routes could he have taken to fulfill his vow to take down the Red Moon? As a Khan of Khans, he might have stepped (pun not intended) into the stirrups of Sheng Seleris, rather than relying on the Orlanthi to topple the Red Moon. As the leader of a new Unity Council, he might have worked to unite humans and the Elder Races against the Chaos from the north, possibly starting in the Elder Wilds. As the victorious Arkat, he might have led Safelster first to regain Tanisor, then rounding up the Lunar Empire from the West. As a dragon mystic, he might have united Kralorela under him following the vacancy left behind by Godunya before striking at the Lunars, or he might have founded a new EWF using Belintar's more sustainable methods to create a Proximate Holy Realm. As some kind of Belintar Reborn (or resurrector of the Only Old One), he might have used the Holy Country as his initial power base, using Silver Age heroes. 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: - what if Argrath showed all his magics, friends, etc... in a Sartar without Lunar domination, without big issue, just a "true traditionalist orlanthi kingdom" ? A true traditionalist Orlanthi society with traditionalist priests being happy would have temples at the top of a hierarchy of disjunct clans, none of that Rex nonsense. They abandoned that High King nonsense when Hardrad Hardslaughter ended the tyranny of the collectors of Arkat's Command tribute (an extension of the Kitori tribute, directing some of the income to Dagori Inkarth). Argrath defined himself from Lunar domination. Without that, his all encompassing passion would not have driven him. (Basically, that is the "what if" scenario if Palashee had not been killed by Phargentes after the destruction of most of the Lunar forces at Karnge Farm, but vice versa. Would the Eel-Ariash have sent a Sar-eel bride for Jarolar or Jarosar?) From my musings above, that could have been a "new Belintar" approach, an "improved EWF" approach, or a "New Unity Battle" one. 51 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said: would the Orlanth priests say he his a good Orlanthi ? Much of Argrath's lifepath might be seen as the Pit of Strangers segueing into the Ritual of the Net. Argrath travels the Pit of Strangers to excess with all his foreign companions, but that is really very much like a good Orlanthi. Exotic and strange friends are the hallmark of Orlanth's court, with Heler, (Y)Elmal(io)/Hyalor, his maternal siblings Quivin, Inora, Yinkin, and the Lightbringer weirdo types (including Eurmal!). 1 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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