Confusion over how often you can augment...

[Mordante]

I hope someone can help me. I need some clarification on how often you can use a augmentation.

 

I'm currently thinking that you can only try to use a passion or rune once per session but can use skills as often as you wish.

Is this correct?

[Nick Brooke]

No: see RQG p.144. You can only attempt an augment once with any ability (Skill, Passion or Rune) in any session.

If you try and fail, you can't use that ability for another augmentation attempt in that session. You already blew it.

And if your gamemaster thinks it's not clearly relevant and appropriate, you can't even make the attempt.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Nick Brooke

[Scotty]

Note that it's possible to have multiple ability augments in play at the same time from different abilities, but only one passion or rune (either not both) at a time.

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

The rules indeed say "once per session per ability", but I'm not a fan of that. What if you are getting together once every few months and playing all day through Sunday morning and afternoon? I guess it's encouraging imagination and discouraging one-trick-pony characters where "that damn 🦆 is always using  for everything".

I guess if you're an all-day group then you just say "Tea break, new session, augments reset" as appropriate.

Edited November 4, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[jajagappa]

37 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I guess if you're an all-day group then you just say "Tea break, new session, augments reset" as appropriate.

The note on p.146 says: "Only one augment may be attempted per ability, and an ability can only be used once per session to augment a task being attempted."

If you change the focus of the sentence from "once per session" to "a task being attempted", then in my view it opens up the use considerably.  Different task, different use, no reason to prohibit another augment by an associated ability.

(Since I run PbF games, there is no such thing as a "session", so I don't find the "once per session" viable anyway.)

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

The rules indeed say "once per session per ability", but I'm not a fan of that. What if you are getting together once every few months and playing all day through Sunday morning and afternoon? I guess it's encouraging imagination and discouraging one-trick-pony characters where "that damn 🦆 is always using  for everything".

I guess if you're an all-day group then you just say "Tea break, new session, augments reset" as appropriate.

i play it as 1 per "scene"

 

during 3 hours irl, you may play :

- 1 gloranthan day (like a little tournament for example, but with a lot of activities, roleplaying and dices rolling)

- 1 gloranthan season (like a big journey, with few events : start, 2 encounters, arrival)

 

I see no reason to say that if you use an ability per gloranthan day (example of the tournament, next session you will be able to use it again)  you are not able to use an ability several times during a gloranthan season (example of the journey)

so I prefer to define "scene"

the tournament is a scene, the start (hiring, organizing, planning) is a scene, the first encounter week 3 is a scene, the second encounter week 7 is another scene, etc...

[Mordante]

I read a post on reddit where someone suggested that you could augment with a skill as often as you liked which appealed to me but would that be to destructive to game balance?

I haven't run/played the game yet so I don't have any real world experience to draw from.

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, Mordante said:

I read a post on reddit where someone suggested that you could augment with a skill as often as you liked which appealed to me but would that be to destructive to game balance?

The temptation might be to try augmenting every roll, which ends up feeling more min-max'ing than anything else (e.g. since Sing is at 90%, I'll augment every combat with Sing, etc.).  I think it's up to the GM to determine what is reasonable and judicious use of augments in their game.  Augments can fail, which can penalize subsequent rolls (and unless at the upper end of the scale may well do so - certainly has occurred in my games).  And I think the player should justify why the augment makes sense - and in all cases, the GM should be able to accept/reject the use based on that.  

Personally, I've found my players tend to have a reasonable use of augments without going overboard, and not found that it affects game balance (and if it did, I'd just bump up the skills of NPC's/foes accordingly).

[Mordante]

You make a good point..I think I was tempted by the limitless augmentation as I'm gonna only have a single player and wanted someway of levelling the playing field. I was even (and still tempted) to import call of Cthulhu style luck.

[jajagappa]

55 minutes ago, Mordante said:

wanted someway of levelling the playing field

The easy way for a GM to do that is to reduce the potential difficulty: lower the opposing skill rating, reduce available magic, etc.

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

Looks like Scotty and Nick have it covered, additionally here's my notes for what its worth...

 

RQG augments

It depends on the GM but in general:

 

• One augment per ability/skill attempt.
• One Passion or Rune augment per scene - not both, too spiritually draining. You have to chose.
• Once a Rune has been used to augment, it cannot be used to augment again that session.
• Once a Passion has been used to augment, it cannot be used again for that task, but can be used again for other tasks provided it takes place in another scene.
• No particular limit on number of Skill/Ability augments per scene other than following the general rule of one augment per ability,& can’t use a skill already augmented to augment another skill.

 

[Mordante]

Thanks again to everyone who's replied!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

So, 5 lines of differing rules and lots of paperwork to track what got used for what and when 

I am increasingly skeptical of Augments.  Especially as players spend a minute searching their sheet, find their highest Passion, and ask if they can use it,even though it is totally irrelevant.

[PhilHibbs]

2 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 I am increasingly skeptical of Augments.  Especially as players spend a minute searching their sheet, find their highest Passion, and ask if they can use it,even though it is totally irrelevant.

This is why we are encouraged that any rule that doesn't work for your group can be changed. I haven't had that problem, so I'm keeping augments more or less as written.

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, PhilHibbs said:

This is why we are encouraged that any rule that doesn't work for your group can be changed. I haven't had that problem, so I'm keeping augments more or less as written.

Quite true, I have been seeing the powers that be are quite happy to promote this thinking. 

[Fencingmonkey]

3 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I am increasingly skeptical of Augments.  Especially as players spend a minute searching their sheet, find their highest Passion, and ask if they can use it,even though it is totally irrelevant.

Yep, this is exactly the behavior you want to discourage. With my group I can just ask "hey, don't do this." Some players might want a little more structure (one attempt/session, etc).

We play short sessions online, so I'm in the "once per adventure" rather than "once per session" camp. That said, I'm also kinda okay with repeats if it's not too abusive. I don't want situations where characters are "holding back" on potential opportunities for coolness in case they're going to need it later. Besides, once you've gotten your Experience check for an ability you're already going to be looking for something else to use, so my players are usually spreading out their rolls without additional pressure.

Really, as with most things, it comes down to MGF. Is it a pain to track which abilities have augments applied and whether they're still in effect? Don't sweat it. Is it bogging things down to rely too heavily on augments? Maybe they only apply for extremely dramatic moments. You may need to experiment to find the right fit for your table, but you'll get there.

[Darius West]

On 11/4/2022 at 10:47 PM, PhilHibbs said:

The rules indeed say "once per session per ability", but I'm not a fan of that. What if you are getting together once every few months and playing all day through Sunday morning and afternoon? I guess it's encouraging imagination and discouraging one-trick-pony characters where "that damn 🦆 is always using  for everything".

I guess if you're an all-day group then you just say "Tea break, new session, augments reset" as appropriate.

The first time I played HQ we ran into this problem.  We had a Humakti who literally used only sword skill and a passion augment.  I don't think he ever spent even a point on anything else.

[Martin Dick]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

The first time I played HQ we ran into this problem.  We had a Humakti who literally used only sword skill and a passion augment.  I don't think he ever spent even a point on anything else.

Didn't they get bored out of their mind on the many, many occasions when a sword skill was totally inappropriate for the situation?

[whitelaughter]

On 11/8/2022 at 4:57 AM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

So, 5 lines of differing rules and lots of paperwork to track what got used for what and when 

I am increasingly skeptical of Augments.  Especially as players spend a minute searching their sheet, find their highest Passion, and ask if they can use it,even though it is totally irrelevant.

Simple solution to avoid the paperwork: since using the augment gives an experience check, rule that augments are only possible if no experience check has been earned yet.

Then records only needed for Lores etc. And frankly I don't see that the 1-use rule would apply here; if you are busily negotiating with trolls, you are going to be using your Elder Race Lore or similar constantly.

[Darius West]

On 11/8/2022 at 11:47 PM, Martin Dick said:

Didn't they get bored out of their mind on the many, many occasions when a sword skill was totally inappropriate for the situation?

Pandering GM made life easy for him. Y'see the thing about keywords is that they can be made to relate to anything with a little verbal chutzpah.  Plenty of sword skill and no ability to argue?  Make the argument a form of duel, with ideas of the cut and thrust of ideas.  Can't craft?  Well isn't a chisel just a form of blade?  Isn't a saw just another blade?  Can't I suggest that if this trade is a matter of life and death than I can augment with my death rune?

Edited November 11, 2022 by Darius West

[Martin Dick]

I guess no system is immune to bad GMing. It's like the programmer who creates Fortran code regardless of the programming language they are using