Far Place Culture vs Rest of Sartar

[DrGoth]

Another question in my random potterings through things (hope I'm not annoying anyone with these questions).

So, I saw the the following in a Well of Daliath posting from Jeff (https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/city-culture/)

"Alone is culturally more like Wintertop than Alda-Chur. Alda-Chur is more like Dunstop than it is like Alone. Ponder that." and "Note that Sartarites view those from the Alda-Chur region as “strangers” and not “rivals” or “enemies”."

The above Well of Daliath article refers to a facebook post, where someone (I think LordAbdul, apologies if I'm wrong) said " the different/varying languages and traditions and vibes".

This sounds right to me.  The Far Placers trace back to Tarsh, or even further west. Most Sartarites trace back to Esrolia.  Even though they are all Orlanthi.

But do we know anything about how those traditions/vibes actually differ?  If a player character from the main part of Sartar heads north, what do you tell them is noticeably different to home?  Or the converse, if a Far Placer heads south? 

Is it dress/food/architecture/art/decorations/tattoos/customs/the way sacrifices are performed?  The basic culture is the same (Orlanthi). I can see it would be difference can the centuries of separation forced by the Dragon Kill.  And how, exactly, does it differ? Have the Far Placers been influenced by Peloria/Dara Happa/Lunars? I can't see any details in the Guide or elsewhere. 

It would be nice to give players concrete information.  Any suggestions or pointers to material welcome.

[metcalph]

They would have some pelorian elements in their culture (both social and material) - not consistently but from a wide variety of Pelorian cultures.  Even the traditionalist Old Tarshites who scorn the Lunars would have northern ways that would startle the southerners.  Tribal kingships might be dominated by aristocratic families to a much larger degree than in the rest of Sartar.

[Joerg]

The Far Place and the Dinacoli tribe (which used to belong to the Jonstown confederation until 1613) are tribes who speak Tarshite (the Pelorian and Sairdite dialect of the language of Orlanthland which got preserved - spiced with Auld Wyrmish - as Old Pavic). The Alone tribes actually include refugees from what is now called the Bush Range, Tarsh outside of the Glowline.

Back in the nineties, I was writing a scenario for Free INT which was to use dragonewts, and it was supposed to go with our publication "Schatten in den Hügeln", a rural Sartarite scenario booklet set in Malani lands. The scenario hook was a cattle raid by some Dinacoli which the party would go after, whether as members of the community or as honorable guests. I was picturing the Dinacoli as horse-riding cattle-herders as well as cattle-raiders, and I was wondering about their horse-thane deity. (This was back when King of Sartar was the one source that informed us about the little sun and life in Sartar.) My question was whether these guys would worship Elmal or Yelmalio, and Greg graciously told me that my hunch that they would be Yelmalians was correct.

Under current canon, this would mean that the Dinacoli would have brought Yelmalio into the Jonstown confederation already before Monrogh had his revelation. But then, Yarandros (fourth King of Tarsh) would have had Yelmalian horse-thanes when he took tribute from the Quivini tribes even before Sartar came into the region.

The current maps show a no-man's land between the Dragonspine Ridge and the Creek-Stream River, with only Dwarf Mine and the Dragon's Eye occupying territory here, plus some Tarsh Exile domain going all the way to the Upland Marsh. This is a fairly recent development. While the land may not have been as densely settled as say the Sartarite valley bottoms, there used to be Tarshite clans and tribes in the region doing the Orlanthi mix of agriculture and pastoralism alongside some dedicated hunting. Judging from the Sartar Free Army unit of the Bush Children, it looks like they too would have been riders and horse archers (or whichever other riding beasts they would cultivate).

After the Battle of Grizly Peak, Moirades took over Bagnot from the Exiles, the Orindori consolidated their hold on Dunstop and the Sikithi Vale, and the farmsteads outside of the Glowline were systematically burned and made unusable for agriculture. (Sort of makes me wonder how the Earth temple reacted to that, but it is likely that Moirades would employ agents from outside of their direct influence to achieve this depopulation.) Terasarin offered the new city of Alone to those survivors who would join the Sartarite cause.

The Sairdite origin of the Far Walkers and the Bush Range Tarshites opens a number of possibilities to differ from the Hendrikiland immigrants of Old Sartar. They might favor a different main crop than the southerners, or use a greater variety of grain.

They would be more of a beer-drinking culture than the southerners who brought their own vineyards.

Other than the DInacoli, these tribes would have been subjects of Phargentes' Tarsh, at least until Tarkalor bested him for the hand of the Feathered Horse Queen. Afterwards, these folk may have taken a carefully independent stance between the two kingdoms.

It would be quite ironic if there were quite Lunar-friendly tribes among those in the Bush Range who were forced to abandon their lands by Moirades. Which means to me that this absolutely would have happened. This gives a slight chance for there to have been a Seven Mothers shrine in the Alone tribal confederation already under Terasarin.

[Jeff]

The most obvious difference is going to be linguistic. The folk in the Far Place speak Tarshite as their home language, which is barely mutually intelligible with Sartarite. It does not have the strong Esrolian influence that Sartarite has. 

There's also a different history at play. Although Alda-Chur was long allied with the Sartar Dynasty, they were autonomous until the 1580s. They have their own identity outside of the Sartar Dynasty- like Texas, Bavaria, Wales, or Scotland. Maran Gor is more important among them, and they have their own Yelmalion tribe outside of the Sun Dome Temple.

[Jeff]

5 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Another question in my random potterings through things (hope I'm not annoying anyone with these questions).

So, I saw the the following in a Well of Daliath posting from Jeff (https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/city-culture/)

"Alone is culturally more like Wintertop than Alda-Chur. Alda-Chur is more like Dunstop than it is like Alone. Ponder that." and "Note that Sartarites view those from the Alda-Chur region as “strangers” and not “rivals” or “enemies”."

The above Well of Daliath article refers to a facebook post, where someone (I think LordAbdul, apologies if I'm wrong) said " the different/varying languages and traditions and vibes".

This sounds right to me.  The Far Placers trace back to Tarsh, or even further west. Most Sartarites trace back to Esrolia.  Even though they are all Orlanthi.

But do we know anything about how those traditions/vibes actually differ?  If a player character from the main part of Sartar heads north, what do you tell them is noticeably different to home?  Or the converse, if a Far Placer heads south? 

Is it dress/food/architecture/art/decorations/tattoos/customs/the way sacrifices are performed?  The basic culture is the same (Orlanthi). I can see it would be difference can the centuries of separation forced by the Dragon Kill.  And how, exactly, does it differ? Have the Far Placers been influenced by Peloria/Dara Happa/Lunars? I can't see any details in the Guide or elsewhere. 

It would be nice to give players concrete information.  Any suggestions or pointers to material welcome.

Now Alone is different from Alda-Chur. They are refugees from Old Tarsh, who were granted land and protection by Prince Terasarin. For their 20 years of independence, they were extremely loyal to the Sartar Dynasty but had no particular ties to the Alda-Churi. The Alone settlers speak Old Tarshite and really hate the Lunar Empire.

Of course in Alda-Chur and Alone, Sartarite is spoken by many people as a prestige language.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

The most obvious difference is going to be linguistic. The folk in the Far Place speak Tarshite as their home language, which is barely mutually intelligible with Sartarite. It does not have the strong Esrolian influence that Sartarite has. 

In my wife's homeland, villages in the rural areas generally have Russian, Bashkort or Tatar as their main language, but the Bashkort and Tatar speaking villages also speak the other language, and all speak Russian as a secondary language. I can see something similar happening in the Far Point, where some villages speak Tarshite but also know Sartarite, and some speak Sartarite and also know Tarshite.

[Lordabdul]

7 hours ago, DrGoth said:

The above Well of Daliath article refers to a facebook post, where someone (I think LordAbdul, apologies if I'm wrong) said " the different/varying languages and traditions and vibes".

Hey! Yes that was me 😄  I set my RQG campaign in the Alone Confederation -- and currently writing it up for the Jonstown Compendium (but it's taking aaaaages to do)

 

7 hours ago, DrGoth said:

This sounds right to me.  The Far Placers trace back to Tarsh, or even further west. Most Sartarites trace back to Esrolia.  Even though they are all Orlanthi.

But do we know anything about how those traditions/vibes actually differ?  If a player character from the main part of Sartar heads north, what do you tell them is noticeably different to home?  Or the converse, if a Far Placer heads south? 

I spent some time thinking about all this and asking around and, of course, playing there, so what I have boils down to:

• Different language, as @Jeff mentioned, which is probably your most important "culture clash" when travelling between Sartar and the Far Place. Lots of knowledge of Tradetalk in the cities. Some knowledge of Sartarite and Pelorian. They probably are slightly more polyglot than in Sartar on average.
• Their own main cultural hero is Arim the Pauper, who founded the Kingdom of Tarsh a long time ago, his wife Sorana Tor (a sort of Earth demi-goddess), and their twin kids who started the Twin Dynasty of Tarsh. Not Sartar and his dynasty like in, well, Sartar.
• They do however owe a lot to the Kingdom of Sartar, who came to their help several times in the past couple centuries. They are loyal cousins to the south, but circumstances make it difficult to help each other (Lunar occupation, Harvar Ironfist's coup, etc)
• They are very protective of their culture. They are the only remnants of the "original Tarshite culture" (although of course this is a lie they tell themselves... Alda-chur developed its own culture over generations, and the Alone tribes had been partially Lunarized before they came here, whether they admit it or not). So jewelry, fashion, and all that would be influenced by Solar and Lunar fashions. The only other "original Tarshites" are their Wintertop cousins, but they're weird angry inbreds who engage in cannibal rites or something.
• Around Alone, it's possible Palashee Longaxe is also viewed as second tier hero below Arim the Pauper. Palashee led a successful rebellion in Tarsh again the Lunars a few generations ago, and for a time reinstated a "classic Orlanthi" kingdom. Of course the Lunars whooped his ass some years later.
• The tradition of Arim+Sorana sort of sets the political template of the local tribes, wherein you might see female leaders (tribal Queens and such) have a more prominent role, especially on the spiritual and magical side of things, than in Sartar or Esrolia. Again, their culture was founded by an Orlanthi priest marrying a demi-goddess (possibly an incarnated goddess)
• It's cold and rainy up there. The semi-open-concept architecture of Sartarite villas is nice, unless it's raining half the time, and there's two meters of snow on the ground for months on end. So Far Place architecture is probably more about big sturdy buildings with few openings and large cozy hearths, with appropriate ventilation for the smoke.
• Because of the cold and snow, there's more organized movement of population between the fields and grazing hills (in the warm months) and going back to clan and tribal centres (including Alone and Alda-chur) in the cold months. Basically, people temporarily move to the city every  winter, especially around Alone (less so around Alda-chur)
• Lots of Yelmalions, especially around Alda-chur. Unlike the Sun Dome in Sartar who are super disciplined soldiers trained to fight as a phalanx, the Far Place Yelmalions are super disciplined soldiers trained to fight in smaller units in a whole variety of environments: mountainous terrain, narrow tunnels, etc. Yelmalions in and around Alone and Amadhall are useful to fight the neighbouring trolls.
• Many Maran Gor initiates and priestesses. She's important in Tarshite culture (again dating back to Sorana Tor), but also it's often dark, the Indigo Mountains have volcanoes and earthquakes, and people often have to go deep underground, whether to fight Chaos or trolls, or to mine for copper.
• A fair number of shamans and cult spirits, at least around Alone. This place was fairly unoccupied until a couple generations ago, and there are many spirits to get friendly with, now that humans are living there. The Sheep of Luck Hills and Chalk Man Vale have quite powerful spirits, in particular.
• Smaller horses. It's mountainous, there's lots of rain, mud, snow, and so on. People probably ride less here anyway... or maybe they just ride in the warm months. Less Praxian mounts seen here too. Probably fewer chariots too, they're impractical around here for similar reasons.
• Heartier cuisine and thicker clothing. None of those bullshit sandals and thin white robes. Again, it's cold.
• Lots of horn and whistle crafters, because that's how you can signal important things from one valley to the other. "Loud as a Far Place horn" is probably an expression in northern Sartar.
• Less trade overall. Alda-chur is sort of on a trade route (but not that much), Alone isn't. They didn't have someone like Sartar to make it a priority. Incidentally, Sartar and his dynasty were also a patron of the arts and culture. Not so much here. People travel to Jonstown for the library, because the library in Alda-chur isn't as good, and the one in Alone is a joke (I know, my PCs were hanging there ever since they were kids)
• Less cool looking stone buildings. Sartar cheated and stole some masonry secrets from the dwarfs. Not so much here. But Alone has some decent stone walls, because they were erected by a Sartarite king.
• More knowledge about trolls. They fight the trolls, because of course they encroach on their territories when they lead sheep up the mountains, but also they trade with them, especially for bee produce from the Gorakkiki cult. Although overall there's not as much troll trade as the Torkani, probably.
• Seasonal relationships to river naiads and newtlings and so on. Most of the rivers there come down to a stream in the summer, but get big in the winter. Lots of bogs and other wetlands, especially around Snakepipe Hollow and the Indigo Mountains. Don't go hiking alone if you don't know these parts, or you'll end up like one of those very well preserved bog corpses.
• Far Place people know danger, and are fearless. They live next to Snakepipe Hollow, next to the Woods of the Dead, next to the Giants' Path, next to Dagori Inkarth. You're not going to scare them with your little Sartarite stories of, like, big wasps or mean wolves. They're going to laugh right back at you.

Phew! That's all I can think of for now... I hope this helps! Ask specific questions if you want more answers...  @Crel and my other players (if they're around here) might have more answers.

But of course the best way to get answers is to play there! I only had a handful bullet points when we started playing, and now I have all this because we've been playing in and around Alone for two years now. The best way to find out is to fuck around! 😄 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Lordabdul

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, soltakss said:

In my wife's homeland, villages in the rural areas generally have Russian, Bashkort or Tatar as their main language, but the Bashkort and Tatar speaking villages also speak the other language, and all speak Russian as a secondary language. I can see something similar happening in the Far Point, where some villages speak Tarshite but also know Sartarite, and some speak Sartarite and also know Tarshite.

Yeah, I imagine in Alda-Chur and Alone there is a significant minority who speak Sartarite as their main language. Most people speak Sartarite as a secondary language, although for the last decade or so a growing number speak New Pelorian. Of course that number will likely drop in 1627.

[Nick Brooke]

Because their culture hero is Arim the Pauper, while the Kingdom of Sartar that annexed them is a phenomenally wealthy mercantile caravan-kingdom, Tarshites (inc. the East Tarshites we're talking about today) have a reputation for being miserly penny-pinchers, however undeserved, which can play out in much the same way Yorkshiremen or Scotsmen are seen in (Southern) English popular culture.

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

The tradition of Arim+Sorana sort of sets the political template of the local tribes, wherein you might see female leaders (tribal Queens and such) have a more prominent role, especially on the spiritual and magical side of things, than in Sartar or Esrolia. Again, their culture was founded by an Orlanthi priest marrying a demi-goddess (possibly an incarnated goddess)

I doubt women are going to be more prominent than Esrolia, I don’t know that that’s possible, but the character of their prominence is likely going to look different due to the influence of the “malign earth” cults. Sorana Tor has been listed as an avatar Ana Gor—the goddess of human sacrifice—in addition to an avatar of Kero Fin, which seems to really set the tone for their earth rites.

[DrGoth]

Thanks All!

Very helpful.

[Squaredeal Sten]

21 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I doubt women are going to be more prominent than Esrolia, I don’t know that that’s possible, but the character of their prominence is likely going to look different due to the influence of the “malign earth” cults. Sorana Tor has been listed as an avatar Ana Gor—the goddess of human sacrifice—in addition to an avatar of Kero Fin, which seems to really set the tone for their earth rites.

Agree about the comparison to Esrolia.  But what do you have in mind regarding the "malign Earth cults"?  What comes to my mind is less manipulation and devousness, more overt threats.  But I am not sure that is what you meant.

[Lordabdul]

23 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

I doubt women are going to be more prominent than Esrolia, I don’t know that that’s possible, but the character of their prominence is likely going to look different due to the influence of the “malign earth” cults. Sorana Tor has been listed as an avatar Ana Gor—the goddess of human sacrifice—in addition to an avatar of Kero Fin, which seems to really set the tone for their earth rites.

Sorry, bad phrasing. I mean more prominent in a spiritual and magical role.

It's my personal headcanon for this (so the usual disclaimers about your Glorantha apply) but for me, in the Esrolian model (and to a lesser degree the Sartarite one), the female/Earth leaders are mainly in a political position. My Esrolian and Sartarite Earth leaders are part clever schemers, part mafia bosses, part spy network heads, that sort of thing. Of course they also oversee all of the Earth magic stuff like blessing fields and pregnancies and so on, but I imagine them looking at spreadsheets and land allocation maps and ledgers while doing so.

Still in my headcanon, the Tarshite Earth ladies are more mysterious and spiritual and scary. Less Cersei Lannister and more Melisandre of Ashai. Less Machiavelli and more Rasputin. Again, some of the things I love about Tarsh are the fact that its first dynasty was co-founded by a (demi?)-goddess, and its Lunar dynasty was also co-founded by a (demi?)-goddess. That second lady's husband even died during the consummation of the marriage.. or ascended, or was illuminated, or whatever, we don't know. That's scary and mysterious! I love it!

Edited April 9, 2023 by Lordabdul

[Ian Cooper]

On 4/8/2023 at 6:32 PM, Lordabdul said:

Their own main cultural hero is Arim the Pauper, who founded the Kingdom of Tarsh a long time ago, his wife Sorana Tor (a sort of Earth demi-goddess), and their twin kids who started the Twin Dynasty of Tarsh. Not Sartar and his dynasty like in, well, Sartar.

When we were working on the HeroQuest Dragon Pass Gazetteer, Greg told me that the Tarshite cultural hero is Yarandros. He likened Arim to Moses, leading people to a 'promised land' but Yarandros is the King David, and the extent of his conquests, Greater Tarsh, which reaches as far as the Quivin Mts. is as much a touchstone for many Tarshites as are the borders of David's Israel.

Not sure if that is any help to you.

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, Lordabdul said:

Around Alone, it's possible Palashee Longaxe is also viewed as second tier hero below Arim the Pauper. Palashee led a successful rebellion in Tarsh again the Lunars a few generations ago, and for a time reinstated a "classic Orlanthi" kingdom. Of course the Lunars whooped his ass some years later.

One thing I would like to point out is that Palashee won the big battle against the mass of the Lunar army with comparatively low losses for the Tarshite side before he and his bodyguard fell prey to an ambush by Phargentes, culminating in a duel that cost Phargentes a hand and Palashee his life. Phargentes never regrew that hand (suggesting that Palashee had access to Seal Wound or something comparably nasty - but then, why do so if you are fighting for your life?).

Phargentes did have what remained of the Provincial Army and the Cavalry Corps under his command when he re-established the Lunar dynasty, but he was also busy quelling uprisings in Aggar and pacifying Elkoi in addition to his campaigns against the free Tarshites who received aid from Jarolar, Jarosar and finally Tarkalor.

[hipsterinspace]

6 minutes ago, Lordabdul said:

It's my personal headcanon for this (so the usual disclaimers about your Glorantha apply) but for me, in the Esrolian model (and to a lesser degree the Sartarite one), the female/Earth leaders are mainly in a political position. My Esrolian and Sartarite Earth leaders are part clever schemers, part mafia bosses, part spy network heads, that sort of thing. Of course they also oversee all of the Earth magic stuff like blessing fields and pregnancies and so on, but I imagine them looking at spreadsheets and land allocation maps and ledgers while doing so.

Esrolia is the breadbasket of Kethaela and grows the food to support its own population of more than 2 million people from a rather small area, all of that magical fecundity has to come from somewhere. In Esrolia the temple city of Ezel is where Ernalda lives and is the holiest site in the Ernaldan religion, maybe all of the Earth Pantheon religion, in Genertela. It is a place not fully constrained by the middle world, where one can experience the fullness of the manifest earth. I would suspect that the mystical traditions of Imarja are also going to be very prominent. Perhaps the scheming aspect is going to be most pronounced in Nochet, but the Great Houses are bound to have a huge household staff of retainers and servants, including a functioning bureaucracy made up of many Issaries worshipers (the third largest cult in Nochet) and some of the thousands of Lhankoring scribes present to conduct the day-to-day business and bookkeeping work of the houses.

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Ian Cooper said:

When we were working on the HeroQuest Dragon Pass Gazetteer, Greg told me that the Tarshite cultural hero is Yarandros. He likened Arim to Moses, leading people to a 'promised land' but Yarandros is the King David, and the extent of his conquests, Greater Tarsh, which reaches as far as the Quivin Mts. is as much a touchstone for many Tarshites as are the borders of David's Israel.

Not sure if that is any help to you.

That's good stuff! I haven't used these kinds of cultural heroes in my campaign aside from some flavour bits during worship rituals, but it occurs to me this could be useful for adding nice backstories to McGuffins -- like if there's a missing important tribal object missing or whatever, one could tie that to Arim or Yarandros and their role in the tribe's history.

[DrGoth]

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Lordabdul said:

I spent some time thinking about all this and asking around and, of course, playing there, so what I have boils down to:

Thanks!  Just a few comments/questions/ideas

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Lordabdul said:

Hey! Yes that was me 😄  I set my RQG campaign in the Alone Confederation -- and currently writing it up for the Jonstown Compendium (but it's taking aaaaages to do)

• They are very protective of their culture. They are the only remnants of the "original Tarshite culture" (although of course this is a lie they tell themselves... Alda-chur developed its own culture over generations, and the Alone tribes had been partially Lunarized before they came here, whether they admit it or not). So jewelry, fashion, and all that would be influenced by Solar and Lunar fashions. The only other "original Tarshites" are their Wintertop cousins, but they're weird angry inbreds who engage in cannibal rites or something.

I like that some of those fashions would be followed, even by anti-Lunars (in our world, how many people who don't like America follow American trends?)

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Lordabdul said:

• It's cold and rainy up there. The semi-open-concept architecture of Sartarite villas is nice, unless it's raining half the time, and there's two meters of snow on the ground for months on end. So Far Place architecture is probably more about big sturdy buildings with few openings and large cozy hearths, with appropriate ventilation for the smoke.

And maybe more sloped roofs?  Because of the snow. Sloped roofs were very well known in the ancient worlds. And then (even allowing for Yarandros)

On 4/9/2023 at 4:09 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Because their culture hero is Arim the Pauper, while the Kingdom of Sartar that annexed them is a phenomenally wealthy mercantile caravan-kingdom, Tarshites (inc. the East Tarshites we're talking about today) have a reputation for being miserly penny-pinchers, however undeserved, which can play out in much the same way Yorkshiremen or Scotsmen are seen in (Southern) English popular culture.

Might there be less decoration on the buildings? So southern Sartar, following Esrolia, might have more paint etc on the external walls then the Far Placers use? With more and higher sloped roofs and less decoration it would give a different architectural feel.

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Lordabdul said:

• Lots of Yelmalions, especially around Alda-chur. Unlike the Sun Dome in Sartar who are super disciplined soldiers trained to fight as a phalanx, the Far Place Yelmalions are super disciplined soldiers trained to fight in smaller units in a whole variety of environments: mountainous terrain, narrow tunnels, etc. Yelmalions in and around Alone and Amadhall are useful to fight the neighbouring trolls.

I take Jeff's points, but in 1625 how many would be Yelmalions and how many Elmali? I know Harvar is a Yelmalio Light Captain, but even so there would still be a substantial Elmal population at that time, wouldn't there?

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Lordabdul said:

• Smaller horses. It's mountainous, there's lots of rain, mud, snow, and so on. People probably ride less here anyway... or maybe they just ride in the warm months. Less Praxian mounts seen here too. Probably fewer chariots too, they're impractical around here for similar reasons.

with the Elmali tradition to the Far Place, even if the number of Elmali are down, I'm not sure about this?  Maybe they have a couple of horse types.  Larger ones for warfare or long distance travel, a pony type for getting around in the wilder areas?

On 4/9/2023 at 3:32 AM, Lordabdul said:

• Less cool looking stone buildings. Sartar cheated and stole some masonry secrets from the dwarfs. Not so much here. But Alone has some decent stone walls, because they were erected by a Sartarite king.

Less cool looking, I can see that.  But I think the amount of stone use wouldn't differ too much. Sartar built the roads and the walls, right? Not so much of the buildings inside the walls and certainly not things like farmsteads (unless I've got it wrong).  Maybe, in line with the (possible) parsimony, it's more undressed/unplastered stone?

 

On 4/8/2023 at 10:49 PM, Joerg said:

The Sairdite origin of the Far Walkers and the Bush Range Tarshites opens a number of possibilities to differ from the Hendrikiland immigrants of Old Sartar. They might favor a different main crop than the southerners, or use a greater variety of grain.

Maybe a different mix? I'm assuming the main crop would still be barley with somee wheat. But barley comes in different varieties (such as the number of kernel rows in the head -2,4,6. And 4 is apparently unsuitable for beer making.  So maybe while there is barley in the field it looks different to southern fields. Maybe it's even varieties that are more cold-resistant.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

I take Jeff's points, but in 1625 how many would be Yelmalions and how many Elmali? I know Harvar is a Yelmalio Light Captain, but even so there would still be a substantial Elmal population at that time, wouldn't there?

There never was an isolation between Solar Dara Happa and the Storm Barbarians in the north, and there always was a network of Sun Dome temples and lesser Yelmalio temples there. The Yelmalians had served as mercenaries for the EWF after initially fighting for the Old Day Traditionalists and persecuting the dragonfriends until they got a hold on the Council of Orlanthland, then fighting Old Day Traditionalists and conquering places for the EWF. When the Three Sons of Sarenesh ruled Dara Happa, Carmania and Saird, the Sairdite Lightfore worshipers turned against the EWF, as did many Storm peoples.

There was no time when the role of the sun god was not claimed by the Sun Emperor of Dara Happa, with his superior Sunspear to demonstrate where the real power of the daystar was.

South of the Inhuman Occupation, there was no contact to Imperial Yelm. Esrolia had its temple to Harono the Sun Emperor, but without much of a cult, and Sunripen given to the Earth Cults. The sun was "little" because it was an associate of the Storm King and never the ruler by its own sovereignty. There was the Hyalor thing, and it was part of Elmal, with the Foreigner Wedding and all that mythical backing from the Berennethtelli (who were extinct, but popularized by the fame of Harmast, who did leave descendants - lots of those).

The Far Walkers were part of those who fled from Hwarin Dalthippa's conquests, northern hill men. Why would they have a deity different from the Sun Domers who set up Goldedge with its major Sun Dome temple to Yelmalio?

I don't see any evidence for Tarshite-speaking Elmali at all.

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I take Jeff's points, but in 1625 how many would be Yelmalions and how many Elmali? I know Harvar is a Yelmalio Light Captain, but even so there would still be a substantial Elmal population at that time, wouldn't there?

As of 1625 there's no difference between Yelmalions and Elmali in Dragon Pass in general. Not all of them live at a sun dome temple, of course - there's still probably some who worship the Little Sun within the context of Orlanthi society - but the names Yelmalio and Elmal are more or less interchangeable.

[Nick Brooke]

3 hours ago, DrGoth said:

And maybe more sloped roofs?  Because of the snow. Sloped roofs were very well known in the ancient worlds.

Spiked roofs, too. (See “A Village Near Alone.”)

Edited April 10, 2023 by Nick Brooke

[Manunancy]

7 hours ago, DrGoth said:

with the Elmali tradition to the Far Place, even if the number of Elmali are down, I'm not sure about this?  Maybe they have a couple of horse types.  Larger ones for warfare or long distance travel, a pony type for getting around in the wilder areas?

For long distance travel, you probably don't want a big horse - they're les nimble and use more ressources. What you'd want is something more like a mongol pony : big enough to carry you and selected for resiliency and ability to forage well over speed and style. 

[Lordabdul]

11 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Spiked roofs, too. (See “A Village Near Alone.”)

Don't forget that this started as a necessary measure for a few households in the northernmost Amad tribe, but quickly became a common scam all around the Alone Confederation.

[Lordabdul]

15 hours ago, DrGoth said:

And maybe more sloped roofs?  Because of the snow. Sloped roofs were very well known in the ancient worlds. And then (even allowing for Yarandros)

Yep that too!

15 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Might there be less decoration on the buildings? So southern Sartar, following Esrolia, might have more paint etc on the external walls then the Far Placers use? With more and higher sloped roofs and less decoration it would give a different architectural feel.

It could be from being penny-pinchers like Nick says, or because they're just not as wealthy and can't afford too many fancy things, or because the paint and decorations are taking a beating every winter under the rain and the snow, and it doesn't last as long.

15 hours ago, DrGoth said:

I take Jeff's points, but in 1625 how many would be Yelmalions and how many Elmali? I know Harvar is a Yelmalio Light Captain, but even so there would still be a substantial Elmal population at that time, wouldn't there?

Personally I keep it simple -- it's Yelmalio everywhere, except for a few tribes (like around Runegate I think?) that are mentioned in the RQG book to worship the Elmal sub-cult. I came to Glorantha with RQG so I have zero nostalgia or interest in this Elmal guy.

15 hours ago, DrGoth said:

with the Elmali tradition to the Far Place, even if the number of Elmali are down, I'm not sure about this?  Maybe they have a couple of horse types.  Larger ones for warfare or long distance travel, a pony type for getting around in the wilder areas?

Maybe? It's also possible that horses are more common around Alda-chur, where it's less mountainous and where the biggest Yelmalio population lives, compared to around Alone.

15 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Less cool looking, I can see that.  But I think the amount of stone use wouldn't differ too much. Sartar built the roads and the walls, right? Not so much of the buildings inside the walls and certainly not things like farmsteads (unless I've got it wrong).  Maybe, in line with the (possible) parsimony, it's more undressed/unplastered stone?

There was a lot of patronage from Sartarite kings, yet. But Alda-chur was under Tarshite allegiance for a long time before it switched over to Sartar, and IIRC there's some text out there that says that Alda-chur sort of developed more organically than your usual Sartarite city. For example, Wyrms Footnotes #15 says that Alda-chur was built on a Second Age city and has "glass walls", "timber-planked streets", and a variety of things like red brick buildings (including a whole quarter made of an old palace complex), wood and stone Orlanthi quarters, fancy brick buildings in the Solar quarter, etc. Sounds like a weird architectural melting pot to me....

In comparison, Alone was nicely planned and raised by a Sartarite king, so yeah it has nice stone walls and some nice stone temples, but after that the king left the locals to do the rest on their own, and Harvar Ironfist destroyed half of it in 1611 when he showed everyone who was the boss. Things got probably rebuilt with few resources and means, especially since Harvar has been heavily taxing the Alone tribes every since, keeping them barely above poverty or something.

Funnily enough, until 1625, the City Rex of Alone was "Eliardo the Plasterer" according to some old RQ material, so I figure at least the walls were plastered OK? (or not!)

15 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Maybe a different mix? I'm assuming the main crop would still be barley with somee wheat. But barley comes in different varieties (such as the number of kernel rows in the head -2,4,6. And 4 is apparently unsuitable for beer making.  So maybe while there is barley in the field it looks different to southern fields. Maybe it's even varieties that are more cold-resistant.

My games don't go in hard-core agricultural simulation and I'm totally ignorant of different varieties of grain, so I'll leave you to it 😄 

[hipsterinspace]

17 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Maybe a different mix? I'm assuming the main crop would still be barley with somee wheat. But barley comes in different varieties (such as the number of kernel rows in the head -2,4,6. And 4 is apparently unsuitable for beer making.  So maybe while there is barley in the field it looks different to southern fields. Maybe it's even varieties that are more cold-resistant.

Kerofin is the goddess of Einkorn Wheat, I would imagine that figures pretty heavily.