Eurmal structure?

[Squaredeal Sten]

Writing up a hidden Eurmali NPC has led me to think about the cult::

It strikes me that with its famous disrespect for authority the cult of Eurmal will have neither priests nor rune lords.  As for who initiates new initiates and teaches the magic, it's god talkers.  Who are either self nominated, or forced to do it by their fellow cultists.  ? Perhaps they succeed to the shrine by killing the previous incumbent?  Or something less bloody? Perhaps at Sacred Time the shrine's wyter picks its priest?  I

If I recall correctly there are  hidden  Eurmal shrines which a Eurmal Initiate would have to tour to accumulate Rune magic.  There should? also be overt Eurmal shrines in Orlanth temples that are big enough that they don't just have a shrine to "all the Lightbringers". But there are no Eurmal temples, because temples would require a concentration of tricksters so large that it would break up out of its own contrariness and anarchy,  if they weren't first lynched or run out if town.

Presumably we will get a big revelation on this subject when the Cults of Runequest books are published.  For now please just give me an up or down check on these ideas.

 Public Eurmali should dress as clowns and be generally safe from being killed. But be driven out if town frequently. At this point they are canon.

I also  believe that there are secret Eurmalis. Who use their Trickster inclinations and magic for nefarious purposes such as robbery. piracy, and general greed and gain.  With lies. deception, a mix of good and bad deeds, and great swings in their fortunes.  A non Gloranthan model might be Long John Silver who is charming, friendly and helpful while he lies, schemes. leads a mutiny; and yet befriends and protects an honest boy (the protagonist in Treasure Island).  And who ends the story by being caught, then  escaping with considerable money.  

What do you think?

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

It strikes me that with its famous disrespect for authority the cult of Eurmal will have neither priests nor rune lords.

In RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, the Trickster organisation was almost completely flat: everyone was an initiate–acolyte, but (a) there might be a nominal “priest” who led worship (and scooped the annual POW gain), and (b) the local priest (i.e. “priest”) would think up something humiliating to put a wannabe initiate through in lieu of a formalised initiation.

Informal co-operation between shrines. It was stressed that all Trickster cults were different, but I got the feeling — perhaps I generate such feelings spontaneously — that one could say that every Trickster shrine, every little cluster of acolytes, was different, even when the trickster-god name was the same. No rules for how things are done. That seems right, doesn’t it?

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

There should also be overt Eurmal shrines in Orlanth temples that are big enough?

For whose benefit? So the respectable folk can see an image of Trickster in a gimp suit and chains? Surely any self-(dis)respecting follower of the disorderly fellow would piss on such a mannequin instead of praying at it. Better to make one’s devotions before a cobweb, a fallen raven feather, or a coyote turd, no?

But I ramble. Good luck.

[Squaredeal Sten]

53 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

In RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, the Trickster organisation was almost completely flat: everyone was an initiate–acolyte, but (a) there might be a nominal “priest” who led worship (and scooped the annual POW gain), and (b) the local priest (i.e. “priest”) would think up something humiliating to put a wannabe initiate through in lieu of a formalised initiation.

Informal co-operation between shrines. It was stressed that all Trickster cults were different, but I got the feeling — perhaps I generate such feelings spontaneously — that one could say that every Trickster shrine, every little cluster of acolytes, was different, even when the trickster-god name was the same. No rules for how things are done. That seems right, doesn’t it?

For whose benefit? So the respectable folk can see an image of Trickster in a gimp suit and chains? Surely any self-(dis)respecting follower of the disorderly fellow would piss on such a mannequin instead of praying at it. Better to make one’s devotions before a cobweb, a fallen raven feather, or a coyote turd, no?

But I ramble. Good luck.

For completeness.  Why would they leave one of the lightbringers out?

And for non-initiates who want to pray for Eurmal to... not play the next trick on them?  For the local bonded Eurmali to use?  For the clown troupe to use in conjunction with other clan level worship at the same temple - after all they are an adjunct to a lot of other Orlanth worship and myths ?  Accepted by Eurmal because sac of MPs is sac of MPs.

But i didn't say the Eurmalis would go there to get their own magic.  Not them.

 

Edited May 10, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing

[Rodney Dangerduck]

With our Eurmali PC, whenever he visits a new town or city I (the GM) call for a Eurmali Lore, or perhaps Devotion, to locate a shrine and ask about rune spells.

[mfbrandi]

10 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

And for nom-initiates who want to pray for Eurmal to … not play the next trick on them?

“I brought them fire and death. What more do they want, the ungrateful curs? Not play the next trick on them, my arse!”

[Squaredeal Sten]

9 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

With our Eurmali PC, whenever he visits a new town or city I (the GM) call for a Eurmali Lore, or perhaps Devotion, to locate a shrine and ask about rune spells.

Each one could be a little role-play opportunity. making contact with the local Eurmali.

But back to the last part of my post, what do you think of Long John Silver as Eurmali?  To me, it explains some things in the story.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
typing

[Squaredeal Sten]

2 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

“I brought them fire and death. What more do they want, the ungrateful curs? Not play the next trick on them, my arse!”

Well yes such prayers may not be answered in quite the spirit in which they were prayed.  Though i suppose it might depend on the generosity of the sacrifice.  I mean, if the person left a beer on the altar, there's a chance.  An amphora of beer, there's a much better chance.  Even Eurmal's worship is transactional.

[g33k]

Largely agree with all of this.

Suspecting that -- as the LJS you cite did with Jim Hawkins (or Oliver Twist & the Artful Dodger) -- a Eurmal priest might take a likely acolyte youth under their wing.  It'd be more akin to a Master/Prentice relationship than the usual temple-oriented situation. 

But yeah, every Eurmal temple / shrine is obscured, or remote from even the smallest village.  Portable is another likely option.

[mfbrandi]

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

Portable is another likely option.

“So where is your shrine?”
“I swallowed it. Visitors always welcome.”
“Is there a rear entrance?”
“Let me show you …”

[hasevir]

Trickster are anarchistic within and without, there is a reason for the every trickster can and should open their own shrine and thus avoid having a master that extracts 10% of their income or other less than volontary service like organized begging for the benefit of the ring leader. Or whenever you have figured out the ringleader is scamming you and run away to start your own shrine in a backalley you have graduated. Or when the old ringleader gets bored and goes do something else or the whole ring rises in rebellion. All expected maybe even ENCOURAGED developments. Afterall to a tricksters thinkings(?) things only improve thru random change.

[EricW]

Eurmal is the personification of wasted potential - the bright kid with no impulse control, who never studies, skips school, plays funny and cruel pranks with equal abandon, and the only reason you don't kill him on sight is he once helped save everyone - though critics might point out in a very real sense, he was also the cause of the prank which almost destroyed the universe. 

I suggest be very careful with Eurmal, otherwise he can be brutally power gamed. People who start trying to use Eurmal magic in an organised way should be punished severely, their god will start intervening and sending strange encounters to mess with them. In any case, Eurmal worshippers should rapidly accumulate a long list of enemies, which in itself will crimp their plans, because a lot of them will be so annoyed they'll come after the trickster.

Before you say the word "compromise", remember Eurmal breaks the rules. It's happened before, like in the second age when Eurmal almost wrecked the compromise when he decided to teach men to speak to dragons, probably because it seemed a good idea at the time.

Like imagine if there's a meeting, and Eurmal decides to help bring agreement by casting Eurmal's Harmony.

Eurmal's Harmony - causes everyone in a group to talk over each other, then leave believing everyone else agreed completely with everything they proposed.

What is the fallout when that goes wrong? After the tribes finish killing each other, and pause long enough to divine who is the author of their misery, that trickster better be a long way away! And the warring factions will find common ground and harmony, they'll all agree killing the trickster who caused all that loss and bloodshed is their highest priority.

PCs and NPCs surely don't have to dress as clowns - I mean, some might, but if you dress as a clown its like wearing a "kick me" sign, people will just attack you on sight. Pranks are more fun if they are a surprise. So liars, swindlers, womanisers, but like if they pull off the ultimate merchant cash box heist, they've lost it all by the next morning, just like Eurmal lost death on multiple occasions "I'm sure I put it somewhere, oh dang, that scary troll has it! DUCK!" 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by EricW

[DrGoth]

18 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I also  believe that there are secret Eurmalis. Who use their Trickster inclinations and magic for nefarious purposes such as robbery. piracy, and general greed and gain. 

I agree -

Spoiler

see High Rock Hill from the JC for a module that uses this idea

 

[mfbrandi]

8 hours ago, EricW said:

Eurmal is the personification of wasted potential - the bright kid with no impulse control

Thought experiment: the Godlearners invent amphetamine or Ritalin and use it on their pet Trickster Academy; is the result realised potential, or — because this is magic, not real ADHD — do the smart ideas dry up and the new spells fizzle out (rather than blowing up in the casters’ faces as in the good old days)?

So rather than have the orderly tricksters punished by Trickster — who probably finds them very funny; it is the true tricksters for whom “he” makes sure things go wrong (true tricksters are self-sabotaging, but that is the same thing, right?) — just bump up their runes and have NPCs offer them jobs as accountants. If that doesn’t cripple their magic, it should.

I don’t want to increase the presence of slavery in Glorantha (make it something half-remembered from the Godtime or just a story to scare the kids), but it is good to have Ompalam as an idea; it is just a shame that he has ditched his 2014-vintage rune for . Trickster — at least in the guise of Eurmal — represents abject freedom, and one has to wonder whether the scale is marked on a straight line. (Similarly, Gark could do with in place of , IMHO, but we can always have CA stand in as our polar opposite to ZZ on the zombie-god scale.)

19 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I also  believe that there are secret Eurmalis. Who use their Trickster inclinations and magic for nefarious purposes such as robbery.

Eurmali with the discipline to operate in secret? Don’t we call them Arkat Gbaji cultists? (Management consultants?) I suppose that Trickster like Arkat–Nysalor is his own worst enemy. And the Gbaji Wars — what a prank!

[French Desperate WindChild]

in rqg (past is past 😛 )

 

there are priests (p294 core rules)

Quote

The initiate must be willing to become an outlaw, plus any other test desired by the local Rune Priest

then I don't know what it means, what is local ? a clan ? a tribe ? a town ? larger than that ?

I believe there are less than a priest per clan ?

 

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Public Eurmali should dress as clowns

Not sure, some may be, if they are clowns, but they are a lot of other options. After all, they have no code, even dress codes

 

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I also  believe that there are secret Eurmalis

they are all secret I believe, except in Orlanthi countries and in few king's / big boss  courts, I believe. And even in these lands some may want to be "secret".

However sercret with a limit : they cannot manage themselves, they are (at least in my glorantha) like cursed people : they must, they have to, they need to make tricks and other Eurmal activities.

 

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Who use their Trickster inclinations and magic for nefarious purposes such as robbery. piracy, and general greed and gain

some of them. For me there is no rule, you may be cursed by Eurmal in a land where you are hunted as eurmali and want to do the god. Or the bad. And that's the same with "official" eurmali. You may be good, or bad, or both. That is not a question of cult, I think, but of people.

 

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

With lies. deception, a mix of good and bad deeds, and great swings in their fortunes.  A non Gloranthan model might be Long John Silver who is charming, friendly and helpful while he lies, schemes. leads a mutiny; and yet befriends and protects an honest boy (the protagonist in Treasure Island).  And who ends the story by being caught, then  escaping with considerable money.  

I agree. This guy is not god. And not bad. Or is both bad and good. That's excatly what I imagine. Some "victims" ("" if it is only tricks, without "" if it hurts really)  would say he is bad (and weird), some would say he is good (but weird)

 

[Nick Brooke]

10 hours ago, EricW said:

I suggest be very careful with Eurmal, otherwise he can be brutally power gamed.

Yes. Coyotes with access to the ACME catalogue are extremely dangerous, it is known.

[David Scott]

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What do you think?

Firstly we've these posts to drawn on:

• Notes on Eurmal in Sartar
• Eurmal’s Clown societies
• Eurmal Inspiration

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Writing up a hidden Eurmali NPC has led me to think about the cult::

It strikes me that with its famous disrespect for authority the cult of Eurmal will have neither priests nor rune lords.

As for who initiates new initiates and teaches the magic, it's god talkers.  Who are either self nominated, or forced to do it by their fellow cultists.  ? Perhaps they succeed to the shrine by killing the previous incumbent?  Or something less bloody? Perhaps at Sacred Time the shrine's wyter picks its priest?

They have Priests. Don't forget that not all aspects are available everywhere. The most common in Sartar is the Fool, Members of the Fool cult join the local Clown magical society and are entitled to violate sacred laws freely while they carry out their ritual roles as Clowns. Likewise with Lightbringer, they have a predefined role. 

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Public Eurmali should dress as clowns and be generally safe from being killed. But be driven out if town frequently. At this point they are canon.

Those who are Fools may join the local clown society. and so are protected (unless scapegoated).

Eurmal initiates make up 1% of Sartar population, Jeff says that's about 1000, so with 2% rune levels, there are 20 priests, spread between the tribes with about 1 per tribe (so for example there will be one in Runegate ,split between the three tribes. I think the are all pretty visible.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Coyotes with access to the ACME catalogue are extremely dangerous, it is known.

They keep ordering the boxes of stickers, but they never open them.

Spoiler

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Firstly we've these posts to drawn on:

• Notes on Eurmal in Sartar

Quote

Laughter and humour are a part of every ceremony, even the most serious, because laughter opens and frees one from rigid preconception. Tricksters are needed in the most sacred ceremonies because the sacred comes through upset, reversal, and surprise. — Jeff Richard

Quote

[The Establishment Club is dedicated to] those wonderful Berlin cabarets which did so much to stop the rise of Hitler and prevent the outbreak of the Second World War. — Peter Cook

Some “clowns” might want their humour to be subversive, but it isn’t. So if they drink too much, behave anti-socially, and have mental health issues, shouldn’t we have more compassion than to make them outlaws or scapegoats? They are, after all, propping up the O world order — even if they really don’t want to.

Is there a Gloranthan Aristophanes? He was surely not himself a trickster — at least, not from the Eurmali crazy clown mould.

[David Scott]

27 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Some “clowns” might want their humour to be subversive, but it isn’t. So if they drink too much, behave anti-socially, and have mental health issues, shouldn’t we have more compassion than to make them outlaws or scapegoats? They are, after all, propping up the O world order — even if they really don’t want to.

Is there a Gloranthan Aristophanes? He was surely not himself a trickster — at least, not from the Eurmali crazy clown mould.

Personally, I think people find it very difficult to understand the nature of this kind of sacred clowning. This is not necessarily drinking too much, behaving antisocially and having mental health issues. I find most people only associate clowning with the kind of thing you see at circuses or people in brightly coloured outfits with red noses and big shoes. Mimicry, mime, and slapstick, as well as magic and music, are also part of it. The sacred clown in a ceremony can be the most serious part of it, while also being the most ridiculous. I have worked as a professional clown and there is amongst western audiences, an expectation of how they aught to behave, and when they don't but act in their own fashion, that can cause frustration with those people. The clown will then use those people as the focus of ridicule (using mime or other actions) and others around will laugh at them. It very hard to give good examples of how Eurmali behave in public, using real examples.

One thing that is clear, is that their priest will train them to be better clowns.

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

This is not necessarily drinking too much, behaving antisocially and having mental health issues.

I am not saying I like that aspect of how trickster cultists were presented, but I didn’t make it up. A couple of examples from the old days:

Quote

Tricksters are ill-mannered, gluttonous, and selfish in every way. They are vagabonds, drunkards, madmen, outcasts, and thieves. — AH Gods of Glorantha, Cults Book, p. 70

Quote

Tricksters have no place in society … some deities’ actions [but in context, we are clearly talking about their worshippers] are contrary to Orlanth’s laws … [they] have dispensation to perform their unspeakable actions … Nonetheless those actions are still despicable to all decent people and gods … [the bonded trickster] typically has a safe private place to go where he can have his trickster fits — Storm Tribe, p. 63 & following

So it is an early death (crazy, starving, or lynched), bonding (with a safe space to fit), or a prescribed rôle (which seems to involve magical intervention from the deity — but not to cure the unfortunate “patient”). I am happy for all that to be consigned to the dustbin of history — has it been? — and for a wedge to be driven between the character, ethics, and behaviour of worshipper and god. Just because Trickster himself is crazy and has destroyer and murderer aspects is no reason to make his worshippers like that. (Or give them magic like that if people are worried about power gamers.)

If modern Eurmali are professional performers, rather than those so damaged that they cannot assume a “normal” rôle in society, are “crazy” people nonetheless still touched by Trickster? What becomes of them, now?

[Rob Darvall]

On 5/12/2023 at 2:52 AM, mfbrandi said:

If modern Eurmali are professional performers, rather than those so damaged that they cannot assume a “normal” rôle in society, are “crazy” people nonetheless still touched by Trickster? What becomes of them, now?

Dionysos is the god of wine-making, orchards and fruit, vegetation, fertility, festivity, insanity, ritual madness, religious ecstasy, and theatre. Performers fall under the rubric of the god of madness IRL.

Eurmal has room for both the insane and the LeCoq style clowns. We have always been, and remain to a certain extent, part of a company that is semi-fringe dwelling. Eurmal as a god of clowns and madmen works for me; including being driven out of town, as per the English 1597 Vagabonds Act.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Rob Darvall

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:52 AM, mfbrandi said:

 ........ Just because Trickster himself is crazy and has destroyer and murderer aspects is no reason to make his worshippers like that. (Or give them magic like that if people are worried about power gamers.)

If modern Eurmali are professional performers, rather than those so damaged that they cannot assume a “normal” rôle in society, are “crazy” people nonetheless still touched by Trickster? What becomes of them, now?

I don't think of ztrickdters as crazy.  Unconventional. Disrespectful, even intermittently amoral, yes.  But not crazy.  Obsessed is not insane either by current definitions., no matter that we clearly see the breaks in logic that underly obsessions.

And we should always fall back on the old Trickster legends.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing: the h in the

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I don't think of tricksters as crazy.

6 hours ago, Rob Darvall said:

Eurmal has room for both

You two can come to an amicable dis/agreement. I am easy on the matter — as are we all?

[Ian A. Thomson]

On 5/11/2023 at 4:39 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

For completeness.  Why would they leave one of the lightbringers out?

And for non-initiates who want to pray for Eurmal to... not play the next trick on them? 

I imagine people might pray there when problems in their life are rock bottom bad, when their luck is so goddam awful, to ask for a twist of fate in their favor. Or if they are facing some crucial challenge that seems insurmountable

In the same way that Eurmal can be bonded to an Orlanthi and therefore not constantly fk up the life of that Orlanthi and their companions/clan, such a prayer by an initiated Lightbringer would not automatically lead to worse luck or good luck and a terrible consequence

I can see that asking for revenge against someone or for someone to have badluck would backfire, but asking for help with surprising good luck maybe not?

Basically I am wondering what general use would there be of such a shrine

Maybe you can appease Trickster by playing a clever trick on someone as a sacrifice for your request

Edited May 14, 2023 by Ian A. Thomson

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

You two can come to an amicable dis/agreement. I am easy on the matter — as are we all?

You don’t have to be crazy to worship here, but it helps?