Prosopedia trivia

[metcalph]

Had the Prosopedia for a week now and there's a lot of interesting tibits under the surface.  Some of thiese may just be imaginery on my behalf.

• Alakoring wears the Iron Crown.  First time, I've seen this in print despite the Iron Crown existing as a far back as Griffin Mountain.  It still seems that he's not the subject of the Iron Crown epic for that hero was killed in a horse nomad ambush while Alakoring was hit by an elven HIMARS.
• Artmal no longer has the Fate Rune.  This could be that he's recently been freed.
• Balazar is depicted as a Golden Spearman.  This might be that the Cult of the Golden Spearman that the Elmali brought to Aldachur (WF #15 p41) was Balazar.
• Beatpot's revolt seems to be the same revolt that Duke Raus got sent to Prax for.  The writeup kinda gives him a Yevgeny Prigozhin vibe (cook...worked his way up into a position of trust.. gets relatively mild treatment).
• Ethilrist's history appears to have changed back to the second age.
• I kinda get the same vibe about the descriptions of the Glorious Ones and the New Gods as if they had the same mythical basis.  Food for thought.  

Edited July 20, 2023 by metcalph

[Akhôrahil]

12 hours ago, metcalph said:

• Alakoring wears the Iron Crown.  First time, I've seen this in print despite the Iron Crown existing as a far back as Griffin Mountain.  It still seems that he's not the subject of the Iron Crown epic for that hero was killed in a horse nomad ambush while Alakoring was hit by an elven HIMARS.

The Iron Crown is so confusing! One would have thought the Iron Crown was lost (first to Pentans and then Balazarings in the Battle of Highbridge) in 718 (as there aren't that many famous battles between Votanki and Pentans), but this predates Alakoring Dragonbreaker by a couple of centuries. So I guess we most postulate a second ambush of Votanki against Pentans a couple of centuries later with the same outcome, and also not involving Alakoring even then? So the Iron Crown epic must be about an even later king? (Or I suppose there could be two Iron Crowns...)

Edited July 20, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[JRE]

Although it may go against Occam's razor, I would expect there are several hundred Iron Crowns in Glorantha. It is the most valuable metal, so what do you use to make a badass crown?

[French Desperate WindChild]

there are a lot of options

 

- the simplest way is what says @JRE. Or even a crown without iron may be called iron crown, just for the "title"

- the [iron crown] is a regalia item. So if you lose it, one of your successoir may recreate it to prove his rightness to lead.

- there is one iron crown in god time, and there are several heroquests (and heroquestors) who succeed to bring it back to mundane world.

- there is one mundane item, and the "crown is lost" is not the item, but the bringer, or just the bringer's defeat, or some idea you may have

- the author may be wrong and confused two differents items calling them with the same word, based, maybe on some picture where you may see a crown maybe in iron

 

then you even may merge all these options and others you may have

Edited July 20, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, JRE said:

Although it may go against Occam's razor, I would expect there are several hundred Iron Crowns in Glorantha.

Someone makes them in bulk. It's like it's some kind of... enterprise. 

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

Someone makes them in bulk. It's like it's some kind of... enterprise. 

That took me a minute, Akhorahil.

[MHanretty]

Gold Wheel Dancers are described as “One of the races of Dragon in the Dawn Age”.

Is this new? I’ve never seen them described as such, unless there is a missing word and it should read “One of the races of Dragon Pass in the Dawn Age”.

Even so, you could make some hay out that typo…

[metcalph]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The Iron Crown is so confusing! One would have thought the Iron Crown was lost (first to Pentans and then Balazarings in the Battle of Highbridge) in 718 (as there aren't that many famous battles between Votanki and Pentans), but this predates Alakoring Dragonbreaker by a couple of centuries. So I guess we most postulate a second ambush of Votanki against Pentans a couple of centuries later with the same outcome, and also not involving Alakoring even then? So the Iron Crown epic must be about an even later king? (Or I suppose there could be two Iron Crowns...)

Dijaar and his Five Friends are shown on the map as being active circa 940 ST.  

source: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-decline-and-fall-of-the-ewf/

 

[hipsterinspace]

19 hours ago, metcalph said:

Balazar is depicted as a Golden Spearman.  This might be that the Cult of the Golden Spearman that the Elmali brought to Aldachur (WF #15 p41) was Balazar.

This is probably rooted in Balazar's god, Tharkantus, the version of Yelmalio that arose to oppose the EWF. Balazar brought Tharkantus/Yelmalio to the lands that would take on his name, and some version of Yelmalio continues to be venerated in the citadels into the Third Age. I believe Monrogh may have passed through Balazar in his journeys.

Edited July 20, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[davecake]

5 hours ago, MHanretty said:

Gold Wheel Dancers are described as “One of the races of Dragon in the Dawn Age”.

I certainly presumed this just to be an error, due to the dubious grammar. 

[davecake]

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

Alakoring wears the Iron Crown. 

Yeah, I noticed that too. Given the Iron Crown grants an Orlanth Rex related power, it makes sense. But yes, the Iron Crown stories are a bit of a mess. Presumably such a potent symbol of kingship goes back to the Vingkotlings era, maybe to the Kodigvari, in which case it might have got lost around Saird first somewhere around the Gbaji wars era, revived by the Iron Crown hero (perhaps tying into Redaylda etc as the other source of sovereignty?), lost again, and then recovered by Alakoring as part of his efforts to create the Orlanth Rex cult? Just off the top of my head - but that still doesn’t explain why people hadn’t noticed that Alakoring did this and still thought the crown was in Balazar, so perhaps he did create his own version somehow (but the original would bring more power to someone seeking to be high king of the Orlanthi, and so becomes of great interest in the Argrath era). 
 

23 hours ago, metcalph said:

Artmal no longer has the Fate Rune.  This could be that he's recently been freed

I associated the Fate Rune with Artmal having the power of prophecy, but I think this was something he was only mentioned as doing when imprisoned, so maybe? Or it could just be one of those things that has more to do with game rules and the Fate rune not really fitting into the current rune scheme. 
 

The Beatpot/Prigozhin comparison is funny! 

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, MHanretty said:

“One of the races of Dragon in the Dawn Age”.

Is this new? I’ve never seen them described as such, unless there is a missing word and it should read “One of the races of Dragon Pass in the Dawn Age”.

Even so, you could make some hay out that typo…

Yes, looks like it should have said Dragon Pass.

[Brian Duguid]

Here's another Prosopaedia trivia question.

Who's missing?

Jeff will have made his choices, and it all looks reasonable enough to me. But ... who is lacking an entry who you would like to have seen with their own entry, for whatever reason?

Here are a handful that occurred to me (and I haven't finished reading yet):

The Larnstings; the Luathans; Snodal; Srvuali; Varzor Kitor.

I'm thinking mainly of entities that still have some canonical existence within RQG or other canon product. I'm not really interested in the Destors, Finovans etc.

Who else is missing and why should they be there?

I was surprised to see Damal in there. I'd really have liked to see Uncol, or whoever the Uncoling deity is.

Edited July 22, 2023 by Brian Duguid

[MHanretty]

I couldn’t see any entry for the Dragon Emperor/Sun Dragon of Dara Happa in the 2nd age, unless I’ve missed this.

[hkokko]

Looking at Fonrit side quickly - the following are either in Revealed Mythologies or in GtG if I have marked correctly:

Afati
Boroto the Pointer

Calari the Manhunter

Cathora

Coalot the Storm King

Daruduran the Chopper

Dengenti

Enisoyo

Erlanagga

Great Boat

Holaralam

Inki

Iti

Jogrampur

Kadiola, Water Spirit

King Malukinda and Thakinda

Koraru

Lord of Bones

Mother of the Wheel

Old Turtle Woman

Orfeda

Serelazam

Sevabos

Shoanariis

Soli, Creator of Thinobutu

Siver

Son of the Hawk

Three Crewmen
Tree Chopper

Ura

Webliu

Of these I miss Calari as they have been in the (non canonical) LARPs and some other material. Also the crewmen related heroes and gods. 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by hkokko

[AlexS]

1 hour ago, Brian Duguid said:

Who else is missing and why should they be there?

Entru is missing, or at least reduced to a brief mention as a 'son of Orlanth' who was one of Ketha's lovers.

Not giving Entru his own entry seems a bit harsh, given that he is the principal ancestor god for one of the most numerous groups of Orlanthi, the Manirians – who are literally called the 'Entrulings' in the Guide.

Mralota and Ketha are there, as is Aram ya Udram, but having Entru as well would do a lot to round out the 'pig Orlanthi' cultures of Western Esrolia and Maniria, which are a great counterpoint to the 'cow Orlanthi' of Sartar and Heortland.  

[Jeff]

10 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

Here's another Prosopaedia trivia question.

Who's missing?

Jeff will have made his choices, and it all looks reasonable enough to me. But ... who is lacking an entry who you would like to have seen with their own entry, for whatever reason?

Here are a handful that occurred to me (and I haven't finished reading yet):

The Larnstings; the Luathans; Snodal; Srvuali; Varzor Kitor.

I'm thinking mainly of entities that still have some canonical existence within RQG or other canon product. I'm not really interested in the Destors, Finovans etc.

Who else is missing and why should they be there?

I was surprised to see Damal in there. I'd really have liked to see Uncol, or whoever the Uncoling deity is.

The Larnstings aren't really a thing, it is a title used something but it is not a real group or organisation. Snodal didn't make it but his son Siglat did - he's much more significant to the Loskalmi. The Luathans didn't make it but Rausa did. Srvulai are there, correctly spelled. And poor old Varzor Kitor just wasn't important enough.

[Brian Duguid]

47 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Srvulai are there, correctly spelled.

That'll teach me not to rely on a mis-typed word search rather than just flipping the book open! 😄

[David Scott]

10 hours ago, AlexS said:

Entru is missing, or at least reduced to a brief mention as a 'son of Orlanth' who was one of Ketha's lovers.

Not giving Entru his own entry seems a bit harsh, given that he is the principal ancestor god for one of the most numerous groups of Orlanthi, the Manirians – who are literally called the 'Entrulings' in the Guide.

Mralota and Ketha are there, as is Aram ya Udram, but having Entru as well would do a lot to round out the 'pig Orlanthi' cultures of Western Esrolia and Maniria, which are a great counterpoint to the 'cow Orlanthi' of Sartar and Heortland.  

Given that Mralot and Entru are both the sons of Ketha. I'd treat them as different masks of the same boar god. I suspect that Entru isn't worshipped much if at all as the Entruli don't seem to have survived the first age as a whole, whereas Mralot(a) is worshipped by the Solanthi and in Nimistor, and may be worshipped a tiny amount in Wenelia and by the Ditali.

[kalidor]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

The Larnstings aren't really a thing, it is a title used something but it is not a real group or organisation. Snodal didn't make it but his son Siglat did - he's much more significant to the Loskalmi. The Luathans didn't make it but Rausa did. Srvulai are there, correctly spelled. And poor old Varzor Kitor just wasn't important enough.

Jannisor moonchaser?

[David Scott]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

Given that Mralot and Entru are both the sons of Ketha. I'd treat them as different masks of the same boar god. I suspect that Entru isn't worshipped much if at all as the Entruli don't seem to have survived the first age as a whole, whereas Mralot(a) is worshipped by the Solanthi and in Nimistor, and may be worshipped a tiny amount in Wenelia and by the Ditali.

Their fate is here: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/first-age-wenelia/

[David Scott]

15 minutes ago, kalidor said:

Jannisor moonchaser?

Other than his actual war (and death), Jannisor isn't a new god or hero. The results of his actions actions are important, hence his mention in Erelia and Verelia (35) 

[AlexS]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

Mralot and Entru are both the sons of Ketha

I was intrigued to see that the Prosopaedia identified Mralot(a) as a son (daughter) of Ketha, since it's pretty clear that Entru the Son of Orlanth was Ketha's consort – more of a year-marriage in the Prosopaedia, more of a definitive husband-protector relationship in the Guide.

Of course, gods being gods there's no reason why Entru couldn't have been both Ketha's son (by Orlanth) and her consort – but it is an intriguing possibility that he was actually Mralot(a)'s father.

The other possibility mentioned in the Prosopaedia is that Mralota's mother was not Ketha but Esrola, which would follow the Ernalda-Eiritha pattern of a livestock goddess being born to an Earth goddess (with Mralota potentially also having Hykim as a father). 

Maybe we could posit a relationship that runs as follows: Mralota was a daughter of Esrola, who was won as his consort by Mralot the son of Entru and Ketha, thereby establishing a Mralot-Mralota pairing that symbolises the transition from Hsunchen Mralota-worship to Theyalan Mralot-worship and from animal-totem to animal-herding culture among the 'pig people' of Maniria and Western Esrolia?

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

the Entruli don't seem to have survived the first age as a whole

There seems to be a difference in the way the Guide uses the terms Entruli and Entrulings. The former, a 'peaceful and kind-hearted people of the wilds' certainly seem to have had a hard time in the Darkness and the First Age, being trashed successively by 'the monsters of the Great Darkness', the sea and the Pralori. The latter, described as 'savage' in the Guide, are clearly the Orlanthi of Maniria, the generic 'Western Barbarians' of Esrolian stereotype.

Bottom line: even if Entru has been reclassified as just a minor by-blow of Orlanth's who may have had a fling with Ketha, he is still important enough both in the religious practices of Western Esrolia (see the entries for Belernos and Kosh in the Guide) and in the collective identity of the Orlanthi of Maniria (whether as an indigenous ancestor-hero or as a label applied to them by outsiders) to merit his own entry in the Prosopaedia.

[jajagappa]

 

1 hour ago, kalidor said:

Jannisor moonchaser?

41 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Other than his actual war (and death), Jannisor isn't a new god or hero.

Well, he was a hero - and a very successful one for a period of time. But, as noted, he was defeated by the Twin Stars and subsequently taken to one of the Lunar Hells. So unless someone frees him from wherever he is bound, there's no need/relevance to including him in the Prosopaedia.

 

 

[kalidor]

16 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Well, he was a hero - and a very successful one for a period of time. But, as noted, he was defeated by the Twin Stars and subsequently taken to one of the Lunar Hells. So unless someone frees him from wherever he is bound, there's no need/relevance to including him in the Prosopaedia.

When we have appropriate rules for heroquesting It Will be time for a rescue.