Integrated Spirits

[Nozbat]

Where can I find information on Integrated Spirits? I can't find any information about them in the PDFs I have with me at present

Possibly need to look at awakened animals too and a search in RQG shows nothing

 

[Scotty]

Not sure what you mean by integrated, but:

• Details on spirits can be found in the Spirits chapter of the RQ Bestiary (pages 164-187). See here for the Contents and index.
• Awakened animals can be found in the Awakened beasts section of Weapons and Equipment (pages 44-46).

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Where can I find information on Integrated Spirits? I can't find any information about them in the PDFs I have with me at present

Possibly need to look at awakened animals too and a search in RQG shows nothing

 

Spirit integration was talked about as one form of (IIRC no-orthodox) animism back in the early naughties, IIRC, with the practitioner implanting a magical part of the spirit into their selves, basically grafting that magical ability unto themselves. To me, this sounds like coercion of the spirit rather than the result of bargaining or a quid pro quo. But it also resembles the outcome of a heroquest challenge.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Awakened animals can be found in the Awakened beasts section of Weapons and Equipment (pages 44-46).

It says "Through Rune magic and ritual, small animals can be awakened". Is there an actual spell for that?

[Squaredeal Sten]

35 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

It says "Through Rune magic and ritual, small animals can be awakened". Is there an actual spell for that?

Not officailly, no.    Read W&E page 46 and you will see that this is a gamemaster function.

[Godlearner]

41 minutes ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Not officailly, no.    Read W&E page 46 and you will see that this is a gamemaster function.

Yeah, that is why I asked. I am sure I will be asked about by a player at some point. Seems that is it should be a some sort of a Common Divine spell.

[g33k]

So "integrated" spirits was never anything official?
Never anything more than online discussions, maybe a 'zine article... 20ish years ago?

 

44 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Yeah, that is why I asked. I am sure I will be asked about by a player at some point. Seems that is it should be a some sort of a Common Divine spell.

I'd make it Spirit Magic.

I'd expect equal facility from shamans as theists.

Plus, spirit-magic is explicitly incomplete, with; there are additional spells (mostly in the Spirit world) not in the rules.  YGWV... especially with Spirit Magic!

[Akhôrahil]

53 minutes ago, g33k said:

So "integrated" spirits was never anything official?
Never anything more than online discussions, maybe a 'zine article... 20ish years ago?

It was a thing in the HW/HQ era.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

It was a thing in the HW/HQ era.

That is my memory as well.  An animist integrated spirits in HW.  This was replaced by spirit magic charms in HQ.  

[Squaredeal Sten]

I don't think the word "integrated" is even used in RQG rules.  Will search the PDF.... I was right, it comes up null.

W&E suggests an Awakened animal  might be the reward of a heroquest.  Or from " a cult or highly magical entity".  

It is the reward of a Waha hereoquest outlined in Arcane Lore pp. 119-120.  I've got to tell you that when I ran that quest as written it underwhelmed the players.  Maybe it was just my delivery.

 

[Akhôrahil]

36 minutes ago, Revilo Divad Of Dyoll said:

That is my memory as well.  An animist integrated spirits in HW.  This was replaced by spirit magic charms in HQ.  

The concept of Integration remained in HQ1, like how you could have integrated passion spirits, and disease spirits integrated themselves with you. But it’s fair to say that it was downplayed.

[Nozbat]

Thanks all... I hadn't thought to look in W&E... 

I had a feeling that it was also a'thing' in RQ3 but can't check it because I'm away from home

[Godlearner]

7 hours ago, g33k said:

I'd make it Spirit Magic.

Spirit magic makes it a bit too available for my taste. Perhaps an ritual available above initiate level.

[Scotty]

17 hours ago, Godlearner said:

It says "Through Rune magic and ritual, small animals can be awakened". Is there an actual spell for that?

As it says, it's time consuming, and rare. I'd suggest that an animal be temple born, be included seasonal holy day ceremonies at the temple for a year then at the High holy day, the person who wants an awakened creature sacrifices the POW. 

Adventurers can obtain an awakened animal as part of their Family Heirloom roll (RQG, 83, item 12)

Large temples will have greater opportunity for this to happen. I imagine the Clearwine earth temple has at least a few breeding pairs of snakes, that produce a suitable candidate every few years.

[Nick Brooke]

20 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Not officailly, no.    Read W&E page 46 and you will see that this is a gamemaster function.

Alter Creature is a 2-pt Rune spell in the RBoM, I’d take that as a baseline.

[g33k]

On 8/23/2023 at 7:19 PM, Godlearner said:

Spirit magic makes it a bit too available for my taste. Perhaps an ritual available above initiate level.

It can still be rare Spirit Magic.  Like the CA-limited Sleep spell, or the notion of a "Bladesharp 10" or etc.

[g33k]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:24 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Alter Creature is a 2-pt Rune spell in the RBoM, I’d take that as a baseline.

An excellent point of reference, Nick!  TYVM.
By that standard, if I were to implement it as Spirit Magic it'd likely have to be at least a 4-point spell.

[Godlearner]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

By that standard, if I were to implement it as Spirit Magic it'd likely have to be at least a 4-point spell.

Not if it also cost at least 1pt of POW to cast.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 8/23/2023 at 8:39 PM, g33k said:

I'd expect equal facility from shamans as theists.

I agree, there is no reason shamans would not be able to awake animals (or trees, or ...)

but

15 hours ago, g33k said:

An excellent point of reference, Nick!  TYVM.
By that standard, if I were to implement it as Spirit Magic it'd likely have to be at least a 4-point spell.

 

the "standard" equivalence between 2 RP = 4 MP is based on temporary spells :

1 RP divine spell, 15 min = 2mp spirit spell 2min

 

here we have something different:

1) the spell is "for ever"

2) the spell is one use (aka you lose for ever 2RP/POW) which is, imo, really normal, as it is "for ever".

So that cannot be just the same cost than a bladesharp 4. it must be sacrifice pow, as it is like an enchantment. (imo, of course Our glorantha may vary 🙂 )

 

the other issue, more a background issue, is the alter creature spell works only on Waha covenant creatures, so based on a specific mythic event.

 

and that's not because you are a shaman that you cannot cast rune spell. You have access to rune spell by spirit society, bargain with a great entity, and of course cult membership

then there are three options:

- gm considers there are other myth events in the same vein. And a cult/spirit society/entity provides the same spell for a specific creature (for example Telmor might provide Alter Wolf ,Yinkin Alter Alynx, etc...)

- gm considers there is no need of myth events to do that, just sacrifice 2POW to your god/great entity and it will send one of its minion, a spirit, in the creature. Something like an allied spirit, but a non initiate spirit

- gm considers there is no spell to do that but there are animals born awakend (like the fish priest of Zola Fel)

 

and in all case, there are the "joker" heroquest. Enter a heroplan with a beast (or without any beast), do what you do, and you leave it with an awakend beast

[Jens]

IMHO it’s a Ritual Enchantment, not a regular spell. Just like Binding Enchantment, there’s a Divine and Spirit Magic version of the spell; they both have the same permanent POW sacrifice requirements (1 point per SIZ). Whether it’s a Common rune spell or a separate 2 pointer akin to Alter Creature is up to MGF, although I wouldn’t have it ding your Rune Pool since it already takes permanent POW; shamans shouldn’t have a problem finding the spirit version but may need an apprentice to raise suitable hosts.  

Edited August 29, 2023 by Jens

[Nozbat]

Thanks everyone for the input.. interesting discussion.

I like the idea of Awakening an Animal being a rare Ritual Enchantment with costs in permanent sacrifice of POW per point of SIZ. Maybe even very rare or else there would be much more awakened animals around. Farmers would want wakened oxen, cavalry would want wakened mounts, etc. .. although the POW sacrifice might be astronomical for either of those beasts given their SIZ.

Integrated Spirits are out then being a HQ era concept.. will have to consider other ways to make it work. 

[Dragon]

8 hours ago, Nozbat said:

Thanks everyone for the input.. interesting discussion.

I like the idea of Awakening an Animal being a rare Ritual Enchantment with costs in permanent sacrifice of POW per point of SIZ. Maybe even very rare or else there would be much more awakened animals around. Farmers would want wakened oxen, cavalry would want wakened mounts, etc. .. although the POW sacrifice might be astronomical for either of those beasts given their SIZ.

Integrated Spirits are out then being a HQ era concept.. will have to consider other ways to make it work. 

Farmers and Cavalry would run afoul of the 'Most larger creatures cannot leave their temple complexes or sacred places, or their intelligence begins to fade away.' (W&E page 44) After putting in over 25 POW, it would be a real shame to have your horse go back to normal because you took it to the next town, or took the oxen to plow your field. 🙂