Trolls, multiple-births, trollkin

[g33k]

Trollpak says (if I am remembering correctly, but maybe I'm recalling some fannish writing...?) that multiple births were known among the Uz, even before the Curse of Kin.

But with the Curse -- and the litters of trollkin -- modern Uz no longer welcome multiples at birth; socio-legally, these are now all considered enlo, although very-small "litters" (such as a twin birth) are still likely to be uzko in all but name.

Is that correct/canonical?  Has anything official changed it?  And yes, YGWV  (and so will mine) so I'm free to have it that way or not, as I prefer.
(I know there's a new Trollpack coming, and so there may be all sorts of possible changes... "soon" (as the Chaosium measures such things, so not soon enough for the fans)).

Edited October 23, 2023 by g33k

[jajagappa]

1 minute ago, g33k said:

But with the Curse -- and the litters of trollkin -- modern Uz no longer welcome multiples at birth; socio-legally, these are now all considered enlo, although very-small "litters" (such as a twin birth) are still likely to be uzko in all but name.

Is that correct/canonical?  Has anything official changed it?

With the Curse of Kin, the result was single stunted births - i.e. one trollkin instead of a dark troll.

One of the subsequent attempts to break the curse (during Second Age?) is what resulted in the litters of trollkin. 

This was in Trollpak and I don't think anything has changed canonically about that.

[g33k]

2 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

With the Curse of Kin, the result was single stunted births - i.e. one trollkin instead of a dark troll.

One of the subsequent attempts to break the curse (during Second Age?) is what resulted in the litters of trollkin. 

This was in Trollpak and I don't think anything has changed canonically about that.

Thank you!

What about the modern stigma around multiple births; that the "litters of trollkin" phenomenon has led to rejecting all those youths?

Was that just some fannish / Glorantha Variance, or is/was it canonical?

[Tindalos]

18 minutes ago, g33k said:

Thank you!

What about the modern stigma around multiple births; that the "litters of trollkin" phenomenon has led to rejecting all those youths?

Was that just some fannish / Glorantha Variance, or is/was it canonical?

Page 92 of the Guide mentions "Since the Trollkin Curse, trolls have decreed all multiple births are trollkin." So still canonical. 

[Akhôrahil]

12 hours ago, Tindalos said:

Page 92 of the Guide mentions "Since the Trollkin Curse, trolls have decreed all multiple births are trollkin." So still canonical. 

One potential workaround is that it's possible for trollkin to prove that they were "really" full dark trolls all along, just born as a trollkin. One imagines this is much easier if you actually were part of a dark troll twin birth.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[metcalph]

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One potential workaround is that it's possible for trollkin to prove that they were "really" full dark trolls all along, just born as a trollkin. One imagines this is much easier if you actually were part of a dark troll twin birth.

Or they could just be superior trollkin as stated in Trollpak p19

[Tindalos]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Or they could just be superior trollkin as stated in Trollpak p19

And maybe that's what ultimately makes a superior trollkin, with a lot of it being nurture over nature. 

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, g33k said:

Is that correct/canonical?  Has anything official changed it?

It's in the RQ Bestiary 71 (2019), Sourcebook 63 (2018) Guide page 91 (2014)

[g33k]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Or they could just be superior trollkin as stated in Trollpak p19

But AFAIK Troll society, broadly, accords few or no rights to trollkin, whether "Value" or "Superior" or any other category.

If you're enlo, you're forever a 3rd-class citizen... maybe a more valuable/useful one than most, but still 3rd-class.  You will never lead Uz warparties, Uz tribes... only other enlo (and best not lead them too well, or you're likely to be seen as the serpents-head to be removed lest you foment rebellion).

Sometimes, that's just what I'd be looking for.
Sometimes, I'd be looking for something different from that.

 

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, g33k said:

But AFAIK Troll society, broadly, accords few or no rights to trollkin, whether "Value" or "Superior" or any other category.

If you're enlo, you're forever a 3rd-class citizen... maybe a more valuable/useful one than most, but still 3rd-class.  You will never lead Uz warparties, Uz tribes... only other enlo (and best not lead them too well, or you're likely to be seen as the serpents-head to be removed lest you foment rebellion).

Sometimes, that's just what I'd be looking for.
Sometimes, I'd be looking for something different from that.

 

If you are a high quality enlo, you might succeed at undergoing the Ritual of Rebirth and become a fully acknowledged Dark Troll.

There is a rumor that the ritual really just is a painful way to turn uppity hangers-on into well-marinated food.

[g33k]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If you are a high quality enlo, you might succeed at undergoing the Ritual of Rebirth and become a fully acknowledged Dark Troll.

There is a rumor that the ritual really just is a painful way to turn uppity hangers-on into well-marinated food.

[g33k]

8 hours ago, David Scott said:

It's in the RQ Bestiary 71 (2019), Sourcebook 63 (2018) Guide page 91 (2014)

Thank you.
I need to go review these sources... I guess it has been too long, I had only recalled the older ones.
(I think there's a tendency to skim-lightly over new repeats of old info)

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

But AFAIK Troll society, broadly, accords few or no rights to trollkin, whether "Value" or "Superior" or any other category.

If you're enlo, you're forever a 3rd-class citizen... maybe a more valuable/useful one than most, but still 3rd-class.  You will never lead Uz warparties, Uz tribes... only other enlo (and best not lead them too well, or you're likely to be seen as the serpents-head to be removed lest you foment rebellion).

Sometimes, that's just what I'd be looking for.
Sometimes, I'd be looking for something different from that.

The PCs in my group were granted a (superior) trollkin, and they rolled up his stats. It turned out the trollkin had 18 in INT, and everyone decided he had been smart enough to hide that. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

i mean, they get to eat a free meal and then someone just gives birth to a new troll, win-win

[soltakss]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:38 PM, g33k said:

Is that correct/canonical?

As far as I know, that is still the case.

On 10/23/2023 at 9:38 PM, g33k said:

Has anything official changed it?

Not as far as I know.

Glorantha Bestiary p 73 says "Since the Trollkin Curse, trolls have decreed that all multiple births are trollkin".

 

[Ian Absentia]

On 10/24/2023 at 5:34 AM, David Scott said:

It's in the RQ Bestiary 71 (2019), Sourcebook 63 (2018) Guide page 91 (2014)

It is so, and that was our understanding all the way back to the original Trollpak.  In one notorious campaign, a friend of mine and I played twin Great Trolls, technically trollkin.  Dumb as rocks, built like bricks.

!i!

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

It is so, and that was our understanding all the way back to the original Trollpak.  In one notorious campaign, a friend of mine and I played twin Great Trolls, technically trollkin.  Dumb as rocks, built like bricks.

!i!

Yes, same for me. We had a dark troll (a far above average one because the player was quite lucky) initiate of Argan Argar and later of Arkat (he became a sorcerer) that was considered by hes brethren as a trollkin. Even the duck had a better rep when we encountered trolls.

[Ian Absentia]

45 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Even the duck had a better rep when we encountered trolls.

Ditto, though in the field ours sometimes became the de facto leaders of the adventure.  With two huge combat brutes marching point, other players invested in more specialised and delicate characters, and we were just too stupid and unruly to take orders.  Everyone had to follow us, and we were not suited for making wise mission decisions.

!i!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[The Lonely Khan]

Not sure if this helps with the litter question but this is a sidebar from 1982 trollpak box 

[The Lonely Khan]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:38 PM, g33k said:

Trollpak says (if I am remembering correctly, but maybe I'm recalling some fannish writing...?) that multiple births were known among the Uz, even before the Curse of Kin.

But with the Curse -- and the litters of trollkin -- modern Uz no longer welcome multiples at birth; socio-legally, these are now all considered enlo, although very-small "litters" (such as a twin birth) are still likely to be uzko in all but name.

Is that correct/canonical?  Has anything official changed it?  And yes, YGWV  (and so will mine) so I'm free to have it that way or not, as I prefer.
(I know there's a new Trollpack coming, and so there may be all sorts of possible changes... "soon" (as the Chaosium measures such things, so not soon enough for the fans)).

 

[litrevan]

I still remember one player in our RQ 2 group, who grew tired of his winged manticore and switched to an inferior trollkin.

[The Lonely Khan]

On 10/23/2023 at 9:38 PM, g33k said:

Trollpak says (if I am remembering correctly, but maybe I'm recalling some fannish writing...?) that multiple births were known among the Uz, even before the Curse of Kin.

But with the Curse -- and the litters of trollkin -- modern Uz no longer welcome multiples at birth; socio-legally, these are now all considered enlo, although very-small "litters" (such as a twin birth) are still likely to be uzko in all but name.

Is that correct/canonical?  Has anything official changed it?  And yes, YGWV  (and so will mine) so I'm free to have it that way or not, as I prefer.
(I know there's a new Trollpack coming, and so there may be all sorts of possible changes... "soon" (as the Chaosium measures such things, so not soon enough for the fans)).

Page 61 of the new Glorantha Sourcebook concretes "fewer and fewer whole trolls born" with attempts to counter the curse resulting in litters, in RQ:G as originating from Gbaji in powers he gave to the broken council. Two curses, one at the dragonewts and one at Kigor Litor and the Dark Trolls. 

The Trolls Curse is in their children (the curse of kin).

The dragonewt curse failed, but (speculation on my part) may have been "devoured by the dragons" and (potential plot hook) diverted into the creation of the black egg seen in the scenario "The Ruin on the Stream".  

I've got 2 trollpaks (2&3) but barely opened them so it may be hidden in there somewhere.

[Akhôrahil]

On 10/25/2023 at 10:59 PM, The Lonely Khan said:

Not sure if this helps with the litter question but this is a sidebar from 1982 trollpak box 

It keeps being weird that trolls go for "chastity and purity" in a ritual.