CoC/BRP Life-path system?

[Baphomet69]

Has anyone tried creating a Traveller-like Life-path system for CoC or BRP (or is there one published that I’m either forgetting or not aware of)?

[Ian Absentia]

Arguably, yes, in RQG.  One begins with conventional skill allocation, then modifies it year-by-year according to randomised events.

!i!

Edited October 23, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Ian Absentia said:

Arguably, yes, in RQG.  One begins with conventional skill allocation, then modifies it year-by-year according to randomised events.

!i!

Indeed.
But it is (very) Glorantha-specific.  And in fact, specific to a particular time, and the Dragon-Pass-centric place.
(and, of course, Traveller produces generally OLDER characters than RQ does).

One could re-skin the mechanics quite easily for other worlds, any time(s).  It would only take the needed hours of research & writing to do fill the tables with the family history & your upbringing.

Looks like a great project for the Miskatonic Repository, I suppose...  @Jeff?  Would such a thing violate any of the T&C's?
 

One could further include similar work -- as I understand it -- into an ORC-licensed BRP product, presuming it was strictly set in non-Glorantha places, used no Glorantha-isms like their Runes, etc...?

[rsanford]

You might check out Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation - https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/385321/Heinrichs-Call-of-Cthulhu-Guide-to-Character-Creation

I only recently found out about it, but its rapidly ascending to the top of my must buy list...

PS - Also see here -> https://basicroleplaying.net/basic-roleplaying-workshop/basic-roleplaying-additions-supplements/life-path-character-generation-brp-zero/

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by rsanford

[NickMiddleton]

8 hours ago, Baphomet69 said:

Has anyone tried creating a Traveller-like Life-path system for CoC or BRP (or is there one published that I’m either forgetting or not aware of)?

I wrote the  BRP.net article rsanford links to years (err, decades…) ago, for the pre-release version of the BRP “Big Gold Book”.

I have a revised version, specifically aimed at 2012 Magic World, but not sure when that will make it in to the wild - it’s currently part of something I am hoping to publish if a BRP CCP gets going.

Cheers,

NDM

 

Edited October 24, 2023 by NickMiddleton

[Joerg]

IIRC there was a SF edition of Jennell Jacquays's Central Casting tables to spice up the past of the characters that might be mined for a RQG-like lifepath. You would of course have to include notable recent setting history into your paths to arrive at a similar level of setting immersion.

 

[DreadDomain]

16 hours ago, rsanford said:

You might check out Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation - https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/385321/Heinrichs-Call-of-Cthulhu-Guide-to-Character-Creation

This book is fantastic! And the physical book looks really good.

[g33k]

14 hours ago, NickMiddleton said:

... if something I am hoping to publish if a BRP CCP gets going.

<ahem>
https://www.chaosium.com/orclicense/  would seem to also allow you to publish...?

(but I admit, I too would love to see a BRP CCP)

[rsanford]

6 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

This book is fantastic! And the physical book looks really good.

Thank you! I’m surprised more people don’t talk about this book here - it looks like it would add a lot of depth, fun, and possible plot hooks to any CoC game!

[Alexandre]

I have always played the RQ2/3 character generation as basically a life path system. You would roll your parents' social class/profession, then at 15 you can choose: Do you follow in their footsteps or try your luck on your own? If the latter you can choose a different occupation if it makes sense: Crafter's apprentice, thief, soldier... I would only restrict those professions that are tied to social class (noble and in some culture warrior, unless there is a background reason that could explain it) and the magic professions that have explicit entry requirements (such as apprentice shaman or sorcerer, where you can enter only if you qualify). Essentially this way chargen becomes a (rather freeform kind of) pregame. 

Also the computer game Darklands (which borrows heavily from the BRPS) has a very nifty character creation system. 

[sladethesniper]

Couldn't you just use the Cyberpunk version so that each +1 given via an event change it to a +5% or a +10% in BRP?

That's how I do it.

-STS

[Mugen]

Burning Wheel's Character Burner could be used as a basis for a Life Path system for Fantasy BRP too. I guess Burning Empires has something similar for Sci Fi.

Basically, in this game Character Creation let you chose a number of Life Pathes at character creation, which represents occupations your character had before the game starts. Each come with a number of years, whose total gives your PC's Age, a number of skill points to distribute, mandatory skills you must buy, and skills you're free to invest points into.

You'd have to define a rule to convert skill points, which is not so easy. BW is a success-counting system with skills ranging from 1 to 9, with a maximum of 6 at creation. That's a rather limited range to translate into a percentile one. You also need to spend 1 point to "open" a skill and give it a base value, which is usually 2 or 3. You can still make an attibute roll if you try to use an aspect of a skill that doesn't need training. For instance, if you try to climb a small wall without the Climb skill 

[g33k]

Just wondering if @Baphomet69 has found any of our suggestions useful or helpful...?

[Atgxtg]

On 10/24/2023 at 11:35 PM, rsanford said:

Thank you! I’m surprised more people don’t talk about this book here - it looks like it would add a lot of depth, fun, and possible plot hooks to any CoC game!

Probably because a more in depth and detailed chargen for CoC is like adding a more colorful and  detailed paint scheme for a MXY-7 Ohka. 

[Atgxtg]

On 10/23/2023 at 7:02 PM, Baphomet69 said:

Has anyone tried creating a Traveller-like Life-path system for CoC or BRP (or is there one published that I’m either forgetting or not aware of)?

It's a bit more BRP adjacent but FASA's Star Trek game had such a lifepath system (probably the second one after Traveller). During chargen you would get some early life skills followed by branch skills corresponding to the characters duties (helm, communications, engineering, sciences, etc.). After that they would go though one or more tours of duty, each of which gave them a few more skill points.

They had similar rules for generating non-starfleet PCs, and game was percentage based too. Other than the differences in skills (you need to add in a lot of new Skills like Starship Engineering and Communcations), it is pretty much swipable for BRP.

[rsanford]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

Probably because a more in depth and detailed chargen for CoC is like adding a more colorful and  detailed paint scheme for a MXY-7 Ohka. 

Okay, I admit I had to look that up:-). Is your point that adding rich histories to characters destined to quickly die or go insane is likely to cause frustration? If so that’s probably true!

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, rsanford said:

Okay, I admit I had to look that up:-).

Sorry, I couldn't think of a better example off the top of my head.

1 hour ago, rsanford said:

 

Is your point that adding rich histories to characters destined to quickly die or go insane is likely to cause frustration? If so that’s probably true!

Yup, that's part of it.  When you spend more time generating the character than you do playing the character, you wonder "What's the point?".

A second reason though is that the extra abilities gained won't matter much in play. Higher skills often don't matter all that much compared o ther BRP games. It's like with the excellent Investigator Weapons supplements. When you are facing any of the Big Mythos Nasties ©, It doesn't matter if you are toting a .25 Beretta pocket pistol  or a .50 Browning heavy machinegun. Either way you are outclassed. IMO, Such supplements become much more useful and appreciated outside of CoC. 

 

But that's probably why you don't hear much about the supplement. 

[Joerg]

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yup, that's part of it.  When you spend more time generating the character than you do playing the character, you wonder "What's the point?".

George R.R. Martin's drastic cropping of well-established characters in the Game of Thrones series gives a certain method to that madness. Although killed early on in the series, the characterisation of Eddard Stark resonates through the rest of the series in a way that a less defined dead king doesn't.

(In Glorantha, for instance, the death of Belintar or his governor king in Heortland have left much less of an impact on the players without some prior investment to make them feel the loss.)

 

13 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

A second reason though is that the extra abilities gained won't matter much in play. Higher skills often don't matter all that much compared o ther BRP games. It's like with the excellent Investigator Weapons supplements. When you are facing any of the Big Mythos Nasties ©, It doesn't matter if you are toting a .25 Beretta pocket pistol  or a .50 Browning heavy machinegun. Either way you are outclassed. IMO, Such supplements become much more useful and appreciated outside of CoC. 

A mere mechanical advantage probably doesn't do much. But e.g. having not just the Browning heavy machine gun skill but also the squad that used to operate this thing under fire in the backstory might suggest a replacement character stepping in once the gun has been futilely emptied into a Mythos baddie in the shape of a squad mate or similar. A specific skill may imply other (minor, but possibly useful) abilities tied to that thing. Taking apart and re-assembling that MG may result in some basic skill with other mechanisms or contraptions. Etc.

 

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

George R.R. Martin's drastic cropping of well-established characters in the Game of Thrones series gives a certain method to that madness.

Only in terms of telling a narrative with lots of side/minor characters. It's not so effective in a RPG, where events must be focused around the same players.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Although killed early on in the series, the characterisation of Eddard Stark resonates through the rest of the series in a way that a less defined dead king doesn't.

And he could have easily been treated as a NPC. In Pendragon you get the death of Uther Pendragon very early in the game, and his loss has a great impact on the early peroids of the game, before the appearance of Arthur. And Uther was an NPC.

 

Remember Game of Thrones is a book series, designed to be read. So killing off major characters doesn't alter the way  readers can read the book. But COC is an RPG and killing off the PCs on a regular basis does alter the way players can play. Dead PCs usually don't get to do much other than grab a blank character sheet.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

(In Glorantha, for instance, the death of Belintar or his governor king in Heortland have left much less of an impact on the players without some prior investment to make them feel the loss.)

Yes and the Gloranthan timeline is an epic tale that covers well over a thousand years. But CoC is a game about Lovecraftian horror. The future, according to Lovecraft, was bleak. Sooner or later the stars will be right and Cthulhu will awaken and wipe out humanity. Not an if, but a when. In that light long chargen might not be worth the effort. I mean imagine doing the same in Glorantha for a campaaign set during the Dragonkill War. 

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

A mere mechanical advantage probably doesn't do much. But e.g. having not just the Browning heavy machine gun skill but also the squad that used to operate this thing under fire in the backstory might suggest a replacement character stepping in once the gun has been futilely emptied into a Mythos baddie in the shape of a squad mate or similar. A specific skill may imply other (minor, but possibly useful) abilities tied to that thing. Taking apart and re-assembling that MG may result in some basic skill with other mechanisms or contraptions. Etc.

Yes having Cthulhu-fodder is always nice, no chargen doesn't give them to you. Unless someone is in active service and adventuring as part of some miliytary assignment, there is little or no reason for them to just happen to have a squad of men under their command. Just because someone worked as a gunner in the navy doesn't mean they get to bring along the USS Texas on an adventure.

[Joerg]

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Only in terms of telling a narrative with lots of side/minor characters. It's not so effective in a RPG, where events must be focused around the same players.

But who says that a game like CoC cannot obey the "chain of unfortunate family members/friends" we get in Lovecraftian stories? How often has the letter of a missing uncle sent the nephew and his comrades into doom or at least close to it?

This would be something like troupe-style character creation, only with the serial attrition of one after another. Who expects their Cthulhu characters to last for more than the better part of a campaign-structured adventure? Giving each player a small selection of inter-related characters, with one main character per game session but possibly one or two more on story standby, would deal with a higher attrition.

 

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

And he could have easily been treated as a NPC. In Pendragon you get the death of Uther Pendragon very early in the game, and his loss has a great impact on the early peroids of the game, before the appearance of Arthur. And Uther was an NPC.

Uther doesn't get much attention unless you play a Pendragon prequel sequence, possibly even starting with Ambrosius or Maxen Whledig and Vortigern. Once you leave the corset of Le Morte D'Artur and appropriate some additional Artus elements (like establishing a short-lived empire on the continent, a shadow of Magnus Maximus or possibly the Duke of Aremorica) and some other Late Roman events romanticized as Arthurian-style knighthood (e.g. the Merowing knights serving the late Roman empire, at first pagan knights, then Christian), you get other opportunities.

Otherwise, Uther is just that useless king who never appointed or sired a heir, letting the realm fall apart. Some bloke involved with Merlin (who makes pretty much a non-appearance with Malory).

 

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Remember Game of Thrones is a book series, designed to be read. So killing off major characters doesn't alter the way  readers can read the book. But COC is an RPG and killing off the PCs on a regular basis does alter the way players can play. Dead PCs usually don't get to do much other than grab a blank character sheet.

Depending on the premise of the campaign. Dead Pendragon knights usually have younger brothers or offspring, or possibly in-laws or squires. Pendragon is designed for a multi-generational campaign with player character turnover, not necessarily generational if the dice are unlucky. And if you use extended families, the player kin muster can be pretty big.

 

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes and the Gloranthan timeline is an epic tale that covers well over a thousand years. But CoC is a game about Lovecraftian horror. The future, according to Lovecraft, was bleak. Sooner or later the stars will be right and Cthulhu will awaken and wipe out humanity. Not an if, but a when. In that light long chargen might not be worth the effort. I mean imagine doing the same in Glorantha for a campaign set during the Dragonkill War. 

The Hero Wars are such a setting, with the end of the world as we know it having started even before the Dragonrise.

CoC could be played as a generational game, too - with family traits, heirlooms and curses inherited by a later period character, and through the use of contemporary kin groups or fated company (e.g. fellow students in a fraternity, people who survived the Somme together, you name it) can provide such lateral replacement, inheriting backstory for a period.

 

42 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yes having Cthulhu-fodder is always nice, no chargen doesn't give them to you. Unless someone is in active service and adventuring as part of some miliytary assignment, there is little or no reason for them to just happen to have a squad of men under their command. Just because someone worked as a gunner in the navy doesn't mean they get to bring along the USS Texas on an adventure.

I wasn't talking about people in active service (that would be closer to a game of Achtung Cthulhu), but veterans who shared the horrors of a trench and the backstory skills involved in that. Comrades who have saved each others backs and who are willing to investigate the cause of the disappearance of such a comrade.

One could play a game of Cthulhu with a bunch of minions, but that is getting more into the territory of Sandy Petersen's boardgame Planet Apocalypse.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

But who says that a game like CoC cannot obey the "chain of unfortunate family members/friends" we get in Lovecraftian stories? How often has the letter of a missing uncle sent the nephew and his comrades into doom or at least close to it?

No one says that, but I can't recall a single adventure or campaign pack that has done so. It would be great if there was such a supplement. Both Pendragon and RQG have rules for passing things down to an heir and I honestly think CoC would benefit immensely from such. It's just that it hasn't been implemented. It could really open up the possibility for some long term campaigns with adventures spaces years, decades or even centuries apart. Imagine introducing a Mythos McGuffin to the players in ancient Rome, and then track it's effects down to the present day, with the players playing ancestors of their original characters. Great idea, but it has nothing to do with my previous statement.

 

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that extended chargen in CoC is a bad thing, I was only trying to explain why more people don’t talk about  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation. Unfortunately the nature of CoC makes it the worst BRP game for that sort of thing.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

This would be something like troupe-style character creation, only with the serial attrition of one after another. Who expects their Cthulhu characters to last for more than the better part of a campaign-structured adventure? Giving each player a small selection of inter-related characters, with one main character per game session but possibly one or two more on story standby, would deal with a higher attrition.

I would thing something along the lines of playing a family line or chose heirs would be the way to go. Like you mentioned, the uncle (a PC) dies and his nephew and heir (same player) continues on. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Uther doesn't get much attention unless you play a Pendragon prequel sequence, possibly even starting with Ambrosius or Maxen Whledig and Vortigern.

He does if you have the GPC. Yeah he dies in year one but his loss affects the land for decades.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Once you leave the corset of Le Morte D'Artur and appropriate some additional Artus elements (like establishing a short-lived empire on the continent, a shadow of Magnus Maximus or possibly the Duke of Aremorica) and some other Late Roman events romanticized as Arthurian-style knighthood (e.g. the Merowing knights serving the late Roman empire, at first pagan knights, then Christian), you get other opportunities.

Yeah, although there are opportunities in La Morte as well. It really comes down to what a GM does to flesh out a NPC and make the players care about them/hate them/etc. The scenarios presented were usually just a framework and GMs were expected to build upon it. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Otherwise, Uther is just that useless king who never appointed or sired a heir, letting the realm fall apart. Some bloke involved with Merlin (who makes pretty much a non-appearance with Malory).

This is true for nearly every NPK/NPC if the GM doesn't do something more with it. Even King Arthur is just "a useless king who never appointed or sired a heir, letting the realm fall apart" if they GM doesn't weave him into the PKs adventures in some way. Yeah he's large and in charge but that just isolates him from the PKs.

The main characters in Game of Thrones were mostly family members or rival nobles  to Ned Stark , allowing for a more personal connection and more frequent interaction. 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

Depending on the premise of the campaign. Dead Pendragon knights usually have younger brothers or offspring, or possibly in-laws or squires. Pendragon is designed for a multi-generational campaign with player character turnover, not necessarily generational if the dice are unlucky. And if you use extended families, the player kin muster can be pretty big.

Indeed. That's why Greg put in a plague to help trim some family trees.

Back in  KAP1 , the opposite was more likely. Household knight PKs would die off and a player would have to start over from scratch. Over time this became like bringing a first level PC into a high level AD&D campaign. It became hard to live long enough to get to the point where a PK could sire an heir.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

The Hero Wars are such a setting, with the end of the world as we know it having started even before the Dragonrise.

CoC could be played as a generational game, too - with family traits, heirlooms and curses inherited by a later period character, and through the use of contemporary kin groups or fated company (e.g. fellow students in a fraternity, people who survived the Somme together, you name it) can provide such lateral replacement, inheriting backstory for a period.

Sure it could, but up to now it hasn't. And that helps to explain why why more people don’t talk about  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation.

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

I wasn't talking about people in active service (that would be closer to a game of Achtung Cthulhu), but veterans who shared the horrors of a trench and the backstory skills involved in that. Comrades who have saved each others backs and who are willing to investigate the cause of the disappearance of such a comrade.

So you'd have a bunch of helping NPCs every session? Again, nothing in chargen gives you that. 

If you are making suggestions for new ways to do things, great, but it doesn't counter my guess as to the  lack of popularity of  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation.

 

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

One could play a game of Cthulhu with a bunch of minions, but that is getting more into the territory of Sandy Petersen's boardgame Planet Apocalypse.

Yup. but again, my post was a response about the lack of talk about   Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation, and should be viewed in that light.

THat are  infinite number of ways we could play CoC, and a infinite number of things a GM could do to enhance a game. And yes, a CoC Keeper or player might find  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation very useful.

But none of that explains why  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation is not talked about more on the forum. 

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

No one says that, but I can't recall a single adventure or campaign pack that has done so. It would be great if there was such a supplement. Both Pendragon and RQG have rules for passing things down to an heir and I honestly think CoC would benefit immensely from such. It's just that it hasn't been implemented.

Or at least, no such thing has been published as a Call of Cthulhu game. Too bad I am ignorant of the current edition of CoC, otherwise I could create something like that.

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

It could really open up the possibility for some long term campaigns with adventures spaces years, decades or even centuries apart. Imagine introducing a Mythos McGuffin to the players in ancient Rome, and then track it's effects down to the present day, with the players playing ancestors of their original characters. Great idea, but it has nothing to do with my previous statement.

Sure. Your standard CoC game using published scenarios with plenty Mythos encounters won't have long-lasting characters, and may make using something like Heinrich's Guide overkill.

While I cannot speak for my fellow players and keepers, my own games usually don't use published scenarios. (Unless you count the Mythos CCG as a GM's quick draw toolkit.) Occasionally, we chase cases that smell of Mythos involvement but that turn out to be something else - more in the style of the Hound of Baskerville or other such local superstitions. CoC lends itself to such scenarios, too.

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Keep in mind that I'm not saying that extended chargen in CoC is a bad thing, I was only trying to explain why more people don’t talk about  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation. Unfortunately the nature of CoC makes it the worst BRP game for that sort of thing.

Yes. You may be right about that (unless there is a yet deadlier use of BRP rules). I was merely pointing out what kind of Coc games could and should benefit from such a supplement. (Like I said, I have zero experience with 7th edition - my group played various German translations of earlier editions).

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

I would thing something along the lines of playing a family line or chose heirs would be the way to go. Like you mentioned, the uncle (a PC) dies and his nephew and heir (same player) continues on. 

And now you are telling me there is no such publication? Weird.

I'lll refrain from further comments on KAP, as my exposure there has been lower than for CoC, mainly because my idea of Arthurian Britain was shaped by Rosemary Sutcliffe rather than Sir Tomas Malory.

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Sure it could, but up to now it hasn't.

Sounds like I should investigate how to create something like that. 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

So you'd have a bunch of helping NPCs every session? Again, nothing in chargen gives you that. 

If that is the case, we are looking at a supplement opportunity here, aren't we? And not necessarily limited to CoC.

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

If you are making suggestions for new ways to do things, great, but it doesn't counter my guess as to the  lack of popularity of  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation.

I am not at all informed what kind of scenarios and campaigns exist for CoC 7th edition. There is a whole lot of material out there for Keepers to pick up, both in the shape of scenarios and in the shape of other tools, and I have read just very few of those, mainly from the German language publication history.

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Yup. but again, my post was a response about the lack of talk about   Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation, and should be viewed in that light.

Sure. I don't know that product. I was talking about making such a lifepath product applicable in a game with high player character attrition (whether through actual death or retirement in a ward). (Having retired previous characters in a ward might be a fun way to inherit information, too - is there any supplement dealing with that?)

 

9 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

THat are  infinite number of ways we could play CoC, and a infinite number of things a GM could do to enhance a game. And yes, a CoC Keeper or player might find  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation very useful.

But none of that explains why  Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation is not talked about more on the forum. 

Well, thank you for explaining how my outsider approach to using CoC which probably would make use of such a guide by providing not just character bonuses but also a sheet of GM hooks for such a character. If Heinrich's doesn't have this, we have another supplement opportunity here.

I am coming from the perspective of an occasional player of CoC, rarely using pre-written scenarios (but reading those e.g. when I edited them for a fanzine or did some slight typo- and plot hole hunt). I bring my expectations from other mystery games and how things can and should be handled from among that infinite number of things, and I was thinking about what kind of keeper would find such a guide useful.

 

Anyway, we are here in the generic BRP forum, where other settings might be served with life-path options (which is why discussing KAP and its use of inheritance was sort-of on topic, too). BRP has rather fragile player characters by default, which makes such a precaution a sensible thing to have.

Taking a look at how authors of novels manage such a change of focus characters and translating this into rpg mechanics is what this forum can do well.

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Or at least, no such thing has been published as a Call of Cthulhu game. Too bad I am ignorant of the current edition of CoC, otherwise I could create something like that.

Or you could adpat the supplment to an older version of CoC.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sure. Your standard CoC game using published scenarios with plenty Mythos encounters won't have long-lasting characters, and may make using something like Heinrich's Guide overkill.

Exactly my point.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

While I cannot speak for my fellow players and keepers, my own games usually don't use published scenarios. (Unless you count the Mythos CCG as a GM's quick draw toolkit.) Occasionally, we chase cases that smell of Mythos involvement but that turn out to be something else - more in the style of the Hound of Baskerville or other such local superstitions. CoC lends itself to such scenarios, too.

Yes, a lot of GMs do that. A lot of GMs also use CoC's game mechanics for other 1920s, 1890s and modern day campaigns. Since it has been the only BRP game to remain in print over the years it was kinda the only option anyway.  Out of the box 1920s CoC is pretty easily adapted for something like a Indiana Jones type of game, and there is even Pulp Cthulhu. But that isn't what CoC was designed for.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Yes. You may be right about that (unless there is a yet deadlier use of BRP rules). I was merely pointing out what kind of Coc games could and should benefit from such a supplement. (Like I said, I have zero experience with 7th edition - my group played various German translations of earlier editions).

Yeah basically games that aren't as deadly as CoC and which make skill a bit more useful than in CoC. Which was exactly my point. . 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

And now you are telling me there is no such publication? Weird.

Bot as far as I can tell., not that I've kept up with every CoC campaign book. Yeah you got the Mi-Go swapping brains and the Great Race swapping consciousness but the nature of it is disjointed for a PC, by design.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I'lll refrain from further comments on KAP, as my exposure there has been lower than for CoC, mainly because my idea of Arthurian Britain was shaped by Rosemary Sutcliffe rather than Sir Tomas Malory.

Pendragon wasn't/isn't tied exclusively to Mallory. Greg Stafford used multiplier versions of the tale to flesh out the campaign, such as Georrfy Mommoth's work and the Vulgate.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sounds like I should investigate how to create something like that. 

Why not?

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

If that is the case, we are looking at a supplement opportunity here, aren't we? And not necessarily limited to CoC.

I'm not so sure. In practice most players probably don't want a bunch of NPCs setting in a stealing their thunder. Even if the PCs get to roll for the NPCs. Certinaly not for every PC in every adventure. As an occasional benefit, or as a special trait for a single character maybe.  I think FAte's Spirirt of the century had some social stunts like that where a PC could run into a contact or old freind for some help.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am not at all informed what kind of scenarios and campaigns exist for CoC 7th edition. There is a whole lot of material out there for Keepers to pick up, both in the shape of scenarios and in the shape of other tools, and I have read just very few of those, mainly from the German language publication history.

Yeah, but does that matter if you aren't doing a specific CoC thing?

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Sure. I don't know that product. I was talking about making such a lifepath product applicable in a game with high player character attrition (whether through actual death or retirement in a ward).

Pendragon's character history tables is probably the closest I've seen to that, since PK roll up the life histroy of thier grandfather and father before play begins. So you get to find out how/if/when/where they died. And retirement is a option in some tables. 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

(Having retired previous characters in a ward might be a fun way to inherit information, too - is there any supplement dealing with that?)

No, but then I don't think there is a game that covers the residents of a ward outside of some sort of insane asylum. But imagine a game where there heroes of previous generations were all retired and are living in something like an Oddfellows home. Imagine a game set in the 1960s or 1970s where the pulp heroes of the 1930s were the retirees. The older heroes could either serve as patrons, mentors and advisors to the PCs or even be the PCs,  sneaking out past the desk nurse at night to go out and save the world "one more time". 

The idea has a lot of possibilities. I kinda like the idea of taking some team from the 80s and having them mentoring/monitoring their replacements, and occasionally stepping it to fix things when the young whippersnappers botch things. The senior characters could have very high skills too. I'm getting Batman Beyond vibes

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Well, thank you for explaining how my outsider approach to using CoC which probably would make use of such a guide by providing not just character bonuses but also a sheet of GM hooks for such a character. If Heinrich's doesn't have this, we have another supplement opportunity here.

You have to ask someone how has  about that. Personally I think a BRP supplment would be a better idea and would certainly be easier to licence, as CoC is not under UGE.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

I am coming from the perspective of an occasional player of CoC, rarely using pre-written scenarios (but reading those e.g. when I edited them for a fanzine or did some slight typo- and plot hole hunt). I bring my expectations from other mystery games and how things can and should be handled from among that infinite number of things, and I was thinking about what kind of keeper would find such a guide useful.

So it more like you are using CoC for game mechanics and setting, but using it for stuff other than/addition to Lovecraftian horror? Well then yeah, the more you stay away from the Mythos the more useful such a guide should be.

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Anyway, we are here in the generic BRP forum, where other settings might be served with life-path options (which is why discussing KAP and its use of inheritance was sort-of on topic, too). BRP has rather fragile player characters by default, which makes such a precaution a sensible thing to have.

The OP was about a lifepath system for BRP, so the COC lifepath supplement was on topic, as was the KAP lifepath/history. 

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Taking a look at how authors of novels manage such a change of focus characters and translating this into rpg mechanics is what this forum can do well.

I think the idea of one (or more) lifepath books ala Heinrich's might be a nice addition for BRP. It would help give PCs a backstory and make character more interesting. Right now character is just sort of bland. You get a big pool of skill points to spend and a rough framework as to where. Something like early life, choosing a college, etc. could be nice for modern games.

[Joerg]

We seem to be mainly in agreement.

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Or you could adapt the supplement to an older version of CoC.

I was thinking about a submission to the Miscatonic Repository with lifepath events that create both some skill boosts and a list of hooks directly for the GM to lean into, but that has to be for Seventh Edition, which I neither know nor own. (Which can of course be remedied with a little money and some time.)

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

[Interspersing a Cthulhu campaign with a few red herring chases]

Yes, a lot of GMs do that.

When every outing results in the face-off with horror from beyond the world and from beyond reason, even with Sanity attrition it becomes the usual fare. When you offer other problems which might be as existential for the characters (as e.g. the Police catching up with the drastic solutions you used to prevent the apocalypse one or two adventures ago), the next Mythos encounter may be a surprise again.

One of the most fascinating Mythos-adjacent offerings of the last few years, Matt Ruff's Lovecraft Country, manages to make the Lovecraftian bits of horror pale towards the description of everyday horror for people on the receiving end of Jim Crow laws.

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

A lot of GMs also use CoC's game mechanics for other 1920s, 1890s and modern day campaigns. Since it has been the only BRP game to remain in print over the years it was kinda the only option anyway.  Out of the box 1920s CoC is pretty easily adapted for something like a Indiana Jones type of game, and there is even Pulp Cthulhu. But that isn't what CoC was designed for.

True. The setting research for CoC usually is quite well done and can serve for normal Film Noir or investigation games.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Pendragon wasn't/isn't tied exclusively to Mallory. Greg Stafford used multiplier versions of the tale to flesh out the campaign, such as Georrfy Mommoth's work and the Vulgate.

When I started my personal dive into fantasy literature in the early eighties, possibly half of the books on the market were Arthurian or pastiches thereof, with the popularity of "The Mists of Avalon" pulling in lame imitations.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Why not?

Mainly because I should focus on getting anywhere with those Glorantha projects that have plenty stuff written or outlined already.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I'm not so sure. In practice most players probably don't want a bunch of NPCs setting in a stealing their thunder. Even if the PCs get to roll for the NPCs.

That's not at all what I meant with "troupe play". I encountered the concept first in Ars Magica, where every player was encouraged to create both a Magician character and a companion character (with skills to deal with the mundane world), and for each adventure the player would choose which of the characters they would play. The other characters would continue their usual activities at or around the home base off-screen.

Character attrition in an action scene won't be replaced immediately - this is not Paranoia where the replacement clone gets shuttled to the smoking boots of the predecessor within minutes. Introducing a replacement character either means there is someone on standby to slip into this role (say someone sitting in the escape vehicle waiting for the party to flee from their current location), or you need a lull away from action to regroup and introduce the replacement from the pool.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Certinaly not for every PC in every adventure. As an occasional benefit, or as a special trait for a single character maybe.  I think FAte's Spirirt of the century had some social stunts like that where a PC could run into a contact or old freind for some help.

The idea was to let the player characters have shared a number of their lifepath experiences with some of the replacement characters. Surviving in a collapsed bunker in the trench wars in northern France, escaping a shipwreck, finishing a period of education together, being subject to a razzia in a speakeasy (to choose some 1920ies background opportunities) - stuff like that. Ideally also shared with some of the other players' characters so that there already is some common ground between the characters when they enter the scenario.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah, but does that matter if you aren't doing a specific CoC thing?

Realistically, writing something for the Miscatonic Repository probably will find the bigger audience than a generic self-published BRP ORC license offering, if only through the cross-promotion on Drivethru.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Pendragon's character history tables is probably the closest I've seen to that, since PK roll up the life histroy of thier grandfather and father before play begins. So you get to find out how/if/when/where they died. And retirement is a option in some tables. 

RQG uses the same concept (in the core rules - the Starter Set has no character creation at all, except for a quick and dirty character tool on the RQ Wiki).

I have seen people bring in replacement grandparents or parents when the first candidates meet an exceedingly early and possibly meaningless demise. The Char-gen I am envisioning will also protocol these background events as plot hooks for the GM, ideally nicely lined up so that the GM can create NPCs or complications that echo such past experience. Old grudges, possibly a vendetta, unpaid debts (financial or moral)... or thwarted or faile relationships returning as an option.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

No, but then I don't think there is a game that covers the residents of a ward outside of some sort of insane asylum. But imagine a game where there heroes of previous generations were all retired and are living in something like an Oddfellows home. Imagine a game set in the 1960s or 1970s where the pulp heroes of the 1930s were the retirees. The older heroes could either serve as patrons, mentors and advisors to the PCs or even be the PCs,  sneaking out past the desk nurse at night to go out and save the world "one more time". 

Not all previous investigators need to go completely gaga when they get retired, especially when there is an option to carry over some of the accumulated experience to the replacement character as they use the retiring character's exploits as their most recent background results. Putting this into a form that is flexible and makes use of a campaign log or similar will be a bit of a design challenge.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

The idea has a lot of possibilities. I kinda like the idea of taking some team from the 80s and having them mentoring/monitoring their replacements, and occasionally stepping it to fix things when the young whippersnappers botch things. The senior characters could have very high skills too. I'm getting Batman Beyond vibes

Something like that, too. If a young researcher perishes in a scenario, the academic mentor could also be the replacement character, or possibly a retired military instructor.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So it more like you are using CoC for game mechanics and setting, but using it for stuff other than/addition to Lovecraftian horror? Well then yeah, the more you stay away from the Mythos the more useful such a guide should be.

Sandy Petersen keeps raving about using ghost stories etc. as Call of Cthulhu scenarios. And you can incur sanity loss from non-Mythos traumatic experiences - surviving the trench wars of WW1 caused plenty PTSD (or shell-shock, as it was called back then), and prohibition era gang wars could be very nasty, too.

 

3 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I think the idea of one (or more) lifepath books ala Heinrich's might be a nice addition for BRP. It would help give PCs a backstory and make character more interesting. Right now character is just sort of bland. You get a big pool of skill points to spend and a rough framework as to where. Something like early life, choosing a college, etc. could be nice for modern games.

Ideally one would provide a lifepath engine that can be completed with events or tropes native to the setting. One thing that doesn't change much between settings is the development of humans - encountering temporary significant others, gaining or refusing academic or work or criminal experience, serving in the war(s) or similar events (subsequent occupation, colonial endeavors...).

Earlier in the thread I mentioned Jennell Jacquays' Central Casting books as one such product. These lack the "parental" approach of RQG or KAP, and the group dynamic-building introduction of shared experiences in the backstories of characters (both one's own character pool and other players' characters).

I'll have to play around with these ideas a bit.

[Akerbakk]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:22 AM, rsanford said:

You might check out Heinrich's Call of Cthulhu Guide to Character Creation - https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/385321/Heinrichs-Call-of-Cthulhu-Guide-to-Character-Creation

I only recently found out about it, but its rapidly ascending to the top of my must buy list...

PS - Also see here -> https://basicroleplaying.net/basic-roleplaying-workshop/basic-roleplaying-additions-supplements/life-path-character-generation-brp-zero/

 

I own Heinrich's and it is fantastic.