Fate of Delecti

[davecake]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:09 PM, Nick Brooke said:

Delecti isn't "a vampire": he's the Necromancer. Delecti makes vampires, he rules over vampires, he creates new kinds of vampire. He himself is something entirely different. 

He is a Hero level follower of Delecti, who has created several new Vampiric sorcery rituals and much more. He is a vampire, but that is a small part of what he is. 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

He is a Hero level follower of Delecti Vivamort, who has created several new Vampiric sorcery rituals and much more. He is a vampire, but that is a small part of what he is. 

Delecti uses Vivamort, about as much as he uses the zombie generation power of Zorak Zoran. Hero level, definitely. Follower? Maybe once upon a time, although his method of continued existence in Undeath is rather distinct from the Vivamort pyramid scheme presented in RQ2 Cults of Terror.

For comparison: Sartar was a hero of or for Issaries, although his magics seem to have stemmed from Larnste and/or Orlanth Adventurous and Rex. I think Delecti is a similar case with his association with the Vivamort cult.

The typical weaknesses thwarting Vivamort - direct sunlight, holy symbols of Death and Separation, flowing water - all don't seem to apply to Delecti, or are at least very much diminished in their effects. His possession of dead bodies reminds more of ghoul spirits than of vampires (who value preservation of their original bodies above preservation of their souls), but again without the ghoul weakness of having to consume dead bodies (and apparently also without the advantage of the ghoul howl).

Delecti was a master shaper of flesh during his (long) lifetime in the EWF. He seems to have been one of the lead developers in the project that populated the EWF with token creatures of long-extinct mythical creatures in Remakerela as part of the scheme to provide a Proximate Holy Realm to the center of the EWF power. This ability to shape or mold flesh seems to extend to the dead bodies he occupies, as he is able to give them a different appearance while he wears them. This is somewhat different from Belintar whose God Self is recognizable regardless which winner of a Tournament of the Masters of Luck and Death he wears, but still has the theme of the body swap once a body wears itself out.

 

[Jens]

Perhaps it’s because they’ve awoken their Hero Soul, perhaps it’s because they are worshipped, or maybe it’s just that most of them are Illuminated, but Heroes in Glorantha often seem to transcend- or even transgress against- their original Cult. Delecti, Ralzakark, Harrek, even Argrath, seem much more driven by their own designs than any God they used to follow. 

[Agentorange]

On 11/13/2023 at 11:09 AM, Nick Brooke said:

Delecti isn't "a vampire": he's the Necromancer. Delecti makes vampires, he rules over vampires, he creates new kinds of vampire. He himself is something entirely different. 

“We have long ago paid the goblins of Moria,” said Thorin; “we must give a thought to the Necromancer.”

Sorry, drifted off into the wrong fantasy world there..........

[Richard S.]

7 minutes ago, Agentorange said:

“We have long ago paid the goblins trolls of Moria Dagori Inkarth,” said Thorin Isidilian; “we must give a thought to the Necromancer.”

 

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/18/2023 at 7:38 PM, Jens said:

Delecti, Ralzakark, Harrek, even Argrath, seem much more driven by their own designs than any God they used to follow. 

Agree. Jar-eel is an exception to this - she’s an exemplary Lunar. King Broyan was an exemplary Orlanth-worshiper.

[Nick Brooke]

Jar-eel the Razoress conspires against the rightful Red Emperor, and abandons her duties for love at a critical moment.

I agree, of course, that these are “exemplary Lunar” behaviours, I was just amused enough to mention it.

[Squaredeal Sten]

36 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Jar-eel the Razoress conspires against the rightful Red Emperor, and abandons her duties for love at a critical moment.

I agree, of course, that these are “exemplary Lunar” behaviours, I was just amused enough to mention it.

From the little I know, Lunar loyalty at the highest level is to the Red Goddess.  The Red Emperor in question seems to have been a mistake who endangered the Goddess's rule and expansion.  In clear minded Illuminated fashion, she (Jar-Eel as the Goddess's avatar anyway) decided he had to go.

Edited November 22, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing / spell check craziness

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The Red Emperor in question seems to have been a mistake who endangered the Goddess's rule and expansion. 

Argenteus is a walking example of why the White Moonies are right.

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

From the little I know, Lunar loyalty at the highest level is to the Red Goddess.  The Red Emperor in question seems to have been a mistake who endangered the Goddess's rule and expansion.  In clear minded Illuminated fashion, she (Jar-Eel as the Goddess's avatar anyway) decided he had to go.

Conceivably, appointing a Red Emperor has, in the light of Seven Wanes' experience, turned out to be a mistake that endangers the Lunar Way: I don't think we need to pin this on Argenteus and imagine it's fixed when he goes. (Also, the coup leader seems to have been his Great Sister, not Jar-eel. But plotting with a bunch of conspirators who all wear masks & veils, literally and metaphorically, and hold up mirrors to reflect everything right back at you makes it hard to identify a ringleader.)

[g33k]

26 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

... makes it hard to identify a ringleader.

That'd be Argrath...

because...

It's Argrath's (secret) Ring!

[Jens]

49 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Conceivably, appointing a Red Emperor has, in the light of Seven Wanes' experience, turned out to be a mistake

I always thought appointing an Emperor was mostly to keep the Dara Happans in line- but perhaps it’s precisely that tie to Yelm that mucks everything up. 
 

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Jar-eel is an exception to this

Jar-Eel always struck me as almost more of an incarnation of the Red Goddess than an independent agent- born after generations of a careful breeding project, allows the Red Goddess to have more direct influence than other Gods usually do. But as @Nick Brooke points out, this does fail at a critical moment, although Jar-Eel has had decades of exemplary service before then. 

[Nick Brooke]

5 minutes ago, Jens said:

Jar-Eel always struck me as almost more of an incarnation of the Red Goddess than an independent agent- born after generations of a careful breeding project, allows the Red Goddess to have more direct influence than other Gods usually do. But as @Nick Brooke points out, this does fail at a critical moment, although Jar-Eel has had decades of exemplary service before then. 

You think that's a "failure"? I think it's exemplary Lunar behaviour. Love over War. Do what your heart tells you is right, even as Emperors and Warlords shout about their Duty. And what's so Lunar about "exemplary service," anyway? Betraying allies when they least expect it is another manifestation of the Moon Goddess... Orlanth couldn't have slain Yelm without assistance from Annilla, the Blue Moon Goddess of assassinations and conspiracies.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

You think that's a "failure"? I think it's exemplary Lunar behaviour. Love over War. Do what your heart tells you is right, even as Emperors and Warlords shout about their Duty. And what's so Lunar about "exemplary service," anyway? Betraying allies when they least expect it is another manifestation of the Moon Goddess... Orlanth couldn't have slain Yelm without assistance from Annilla, the Blue Moon Goddess of assassinations and conspiracies.

According to Jar-eel's "did they achieve liberation?", Verithurusa was one of the conspirators, alongside Tolat/Shargash and the Bat. The Blue Moon (naturally) is not depicted. Makes you wonder who took the Orlanth role in the cabal that "liberated" Argenteus. Beatpot as King West Wind?

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Argenteus is a walking example of why the White Moonies are right.

“Fascinating, Citizen. Your freedom of speech is, of course, enshrined in Imperial law. Please, step this way and explain your theories to us at greater length. My associate will take notes. This is entirely voluntary, at first, and you are welcome to invite your friends and family: the more, the merrier!”

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

 This is entirely voluntary, at first

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

[davecake]

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

Delecti uses Vivamort, about as much as he uses the zombie generation power of Zorak Zoran.

So, assuming the Vivamort cult write up that will eventually appear in the Cults of Chaos has changed little from earlier drafts - core abilities, and core followers, are firmly in the Vivamort camp. Not only are the Daughters of Darkness a variant of vampires, spells like the black oaks that spread the marsh are Vivamort sorcery spells.

While it’s possible that he makes some use of Zorak Zoran zombie magics (I think he does have a bunch of undead Zoraida Zorani that work for him according to WF15), for the wide scale zombie magics that he is famous for, it seems more likely that he uses the Vampiric sorcery zombie creating magic known to the Vivamort cult, given the general presence of many vampiric sorcerers, and rather less Zoraida Zoran members, temples to Zorak Zoran, etc. 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

Follower? Maybe once upon a time,

Like every other hero, but especially every other sorcerer hero, his relationship with his otherworldly source of power grows steadily less subservient, but I meant it more in the sense of an enthusiastic practitioner of the methods of Vivamort. 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

although his method of continued existence in Undeath is rather distinct from the Vivamort pyramid scheme presented in RQ2 Cults of Terror.

but I think in the new Cults of Chaos book, the corpse hopping methods of Vivamort will be included as another Vampiric sorcery ritual, another option available. 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

I think Delecti is a similar case with his association with the Vivamort cult.

Well, it’s certain that Delecti is an innovator in the world of vampiric sorcery, but I don’t think that means he is something other than a follower of Vivamort. 

 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

The typical weaknesses thwarting Vivamort - direct sunlight, holy symbols of Death and Separation, flowing water - all don't seem to apply to Delecti

The Dancers in Darkness are products and expressions of Delecti’s magic - and this is outright false for Death runes, and I suspect for sunlight too (why they stick to darkness). The marsh, of course, can be seen as a large scale project to stop the water flowing, and otherwise corrupt it. 

 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

His possession of dead bodies reminds more of ghoul spirits than of vampires

Noting that not only is his possession of corpses something possible with Vampiric sorcery - but so is possession of corpses by ghoul spirits, and has been a known vampire power since Cults of Terror. 

 

On 11/18/2023 at 6:23 PM, Joerg said:

Delecti was a master shaper of flesh during his (long) lifetime in the EWF. He seems to have been one of the lead developers in the project that populated the EWF with token creatures of long-extinct mythical creatures in Remakerela as part of the scheme to provide a Proximate Holy Realm to the center of the EWF power. This ability to shape or mold flesh seems to extend to the dead bodies he occupies,

Yes, Delecti seems to combine the body stitching of live bodies of Remakerela with the necromancy of Vivamort. He certainly is a unique Hero level practitioner of creepy sorcery, and doesn’t limit it to the common or garden Vivamort classics. 

[soltakss]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:58 PM, Rick Meints said:

To paraphrase one of my favorite movie quotes, Delecti has a long tradition of existence.

Having him defeated, destroyed, and gone for good would be a tremendous loss for MGF.

Permanently killing him would mean that the Undead of the Upland Marsh would be out  of control, which is far worse than they are under Delecti's control.

On 11/12/2023 at 7:08 PM, Murf said:

So what happens to everybody's favorite undead menace?

In my last Glorantha campaign, the Adventurers gave the Upland Marsh to Harrek, making him Duke of the Upland Marsh, expecting him to fight Delecti, but instead they came to an arrangement that allowed Harrek to raid from the Upland Marsh into Sartar, the Holy Country and the Lunar Provinces, with an army of Wolf Pirates and Undead. 

 

On 11/12/2023 at 7:08 PM, Murf said:

Does Argrath take some time out to eliminate this threat to his flank and later his rear?

Delecti is not a threat if he is hired by Argrath. Sue, he is a temporary threat in the wars against the Lunar Empire but he can as easily be hired by Argrath. After all, Argrath has Ducks that he can send to Delecti as Emissaries.

On 11/12/2023 at 7:08 PM, Murf said:

Also are there any stats for the Mr Cold and Clammy and his bevy of blood sucking bimbos.?

I didn't really bother. He can cast Create Undead spells using his Magic Points instead of POW and can raise hordes of undead from the ranks of the newly-slain. Remember the scene in Game of Thrones when the King of the White Walkers raised his fallen enemies? That is what Delecti does. 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, soltakss said:

Permanently killing him would mean that the Undead of the Upland Marsh would be out  of control, which is far worse than they are under Delecti's control.

We also assume that Delecti created the swamp and the zombies for his own nefarious purposes. It could well be that those simply intersect with another motive - keeping some dark draconic or Chaotic designs at bay.

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, jajagappa said:

We also assume that Delecti created the swamp and the zombies for his own nefarious purposes. It could well be that those simply intersect with another motive - keeping some dark draconic or Chaotic designs at bay.

In my Glorantha, Delecti created the Upland Marsh to protect the people from the True Golden Horde.

[davecake]

On 11/26/2023 at 2:07 AM, soltakss said:

He can cast Create Undead spells using his Magic Points instead of POW and can raise hordes of undead from the ranks of the newly-slain.

Many of the more powerful undead creation spells do require POW. As do enchantments, and much potent sorcery (including mastering Runes). Conveniently for Delecti and friends, thanks to Vivamort and the wonders of Vampiric sorcery, it doesn’t need to be the sorcerers own POW.

[davecake]

On 11/26/2023 at 7:26 PM, soltakss said:

In my Glorantha, Delecti created the Upland Marsh to protect the people from the True Golden Horde.

More likely Delecti created the Upland Marsh to protect himself from the True Golden Horde. And draconic vengeance. And later vengeful nonhumans.

[Joerg]

If Delecti or his Dancers in Darkness were Vivamorti vampires, where is their cult of living minions?

[davecake]

12 hours ago, Joerg said:

If Delecti or his Dancers in Darkness were Vivamorti vampires, where is their cult of living minions?

Keeping an extremely low profile, like most Vivamort cultists?

There are a few interesting questions - like if Vivamort recruits exclusively pale-skinned beautiful women, where does he recruit them from? And does Delecti keep captives in the marsh to supply them, or must they hunt in the surroundings of the marsh? But there is no indication they don’t follow a fairly minor variation of the standard vampire cult.

Though they certainly have multiple unique tricks up their rotting sleeves. The magical Blackthorn trees that expand the marsh are created by vampirising dryads, and I expect it opens up some ways to drain magic points from the marsh, too. And regardless of whether you think Delecti is a necromancer hero of the Vivamort cult with vampire followers, or a vampire necromancer hero of the Vivamort cult with vampire followers, he clearly knows a lot of necromancy beyond the level of the vast majority of vampires. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 11/16/2023 at 9:05 PM, Darius West said:

No, Argrath sacrifices some ducks to Delecti and gets the Necromancer on side as a mercenary, before marching a chain of zombies North West against the Lunars.   Play the boardgame and you will understand.

True.  Pretty sure that our Humakti PC, and perhaps several others, will desert Argrath should this happen in our campaign.