The utility of the Seven Mothers cult?

[radmonger]

24 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

However, what Ali was pointing out is that from a culturally modern perspective we're almost singularly obsessed with whether something is individually practical (or, at least, we think we are).

By modern, I take it you mean post-Enlightenment?

The 7M is a specifically engineered cult designed to lead the member to illumination. Which means being an individual and forming your own moral and pragmatic judgements, in a very modern way.

This is very different from starting from 'I want to seek employment as a butcher', and being obliged to accept a whole bunch of ritual obligations on how you can live your life, including who you can marry.

It leads the initiate along that path by providing spells that are universally useful to a equal citizen.

[Ynneadwraith]

10 minutes ago, radmonger said:

This is very different from starting from 'I want to seek employment as a butcher', and being obliged to accept a whole bunch of ritual obligations on how you can live your life, including who you can marry.

Agreed, though I'd quite strongly argue that we're nowhere near as far along that road as we think we are. Ask any autistic person how many 'ritual obligations on how you can live your life' us neurotypicals inflict upon ourselves, for an example.

I'm broadly of the opinion that we like to think of ourselves as thoroughly enlightened beings of practical reason, but at the end of the day 80% of all our decisions are based on habit and what everyone else expects us to do (+/-5%).

[Ali the Helering]

38 minutes ago, radmonger said:

By modern, I take it you mean post-Enlightenment?

The 7M is a specifically engineered cult designed to lead the member to illumination. Which means being an individual and forming your own moral and pragmatic judgements, in a very modern way.

If you consider those faiths that lead to illumination in the RW, they tend to be very heavily bound by ritual practises.  In many of them the individual is understood to be either a flawed understanding or an evil illusion.

Being part of an urban RW religion in the ancient world was largely a matter of acknowledging and establishing your place within the community.  As Jeff said, in the Empire just look up and you will see who is at heart of that community, so it is then a matter of cementing your position vis-a-vis her.

Individualism as a term originates in the 1830s, so the concept that gave rise to it is very far post-Enlightenment.  Almost yesterday in mythic terms.😇

[Broadsmile]

A lot of good answers here.

On 1/23/2024 at 12:19 AM, scott-martin said:

IMG most of this magic is an application of the real work of the 7M cult, which is the cultivation of personal psychological states . . . not quite the radical individuality of full illumination but a kind of progressive realization that social identity is a construct and the imagination has power. Thus someone who is advanced in 7M meditation will naturally figure out how to trigger similar states in others or shake off / repel magical aggression. You know the underpinnings of consciousness. That's the important part. The weaponized forms are good for the conventional character sheet but really incidental . . . they point toward another kind of game that might or might not show up when lunar heroquesting rules are published.

(Regrow Limb is a secret of Dying Moon therapy and so is a little different.)
 

This post was very helpful in connecting the mechanics to the lore, thanks! 

I think I was having a problem identifying the "Role" (Both societal and gameplay wise) of the Seven Mothers Initiate in comparison to worshippers of the other gods but I can sort of concive a upwardly moblie  fledgling philosopher. Like a mix of a yuppie and a hippe. "If you don't accept that the self is an Illusion and that we-are-all-us this land is gonna stay stuck in the dawn times old man" (No wonder they annoy good godfearing people)   

So it's more like a cult of the state / a liberating philosophical movement?

While other Gloranthan cults tend to have a more nieche role. (I think thats what throws me off.) 

Are the Lunars Brain-draining (POW drain?) their subject populations? 

On 1/22/2024 at 11:51 PM, radmonger said:

Mindblast is excellent non-lethal self defense, like a Lightning that never leaves you with a wergeld bill.

Madness is a deterrent, a threat that can sometimes scare those inured to mere death.

Regrow Limb means you don't have to 'gift' a years income to the White Ladies, or hoard your rune magic jealously in case of a medical emergency that may never come.

Reflection is a good counter to all the people you deal with who know Mindblast.

It's not really a cult for farmers or warriors, but for citizens, city dwellers. Albeit citizens of the lowest ranking and most provincial sort.

 

 

Now i'm imagining things getting heated down at the cantina (I assume lunars don't drink at mead-halls) and the whole place suddenly being full of reflected mindblasts bouncing around. (And I though Orlanthi bar brawls were bad).   

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Broadsmile said:

Are the Lunars Brain-draining (POW drain?) their subject populations? 

Quite the reverse. We are opening their (third) eyes, liberating them, emancipating them. (Spiritually speaking, of course. Terms and conditions apply.)

The Lunar Way teaches people to throw off the hidebound constraints imposed by the Old Gods’ Old Ways and achieve their ultimate potential. (Yes, sometimes that means tentacles: that’s cosmic liberation for you.)

[Stephen L]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:37 PM, Broadsmile said:

Is this just a case of the game focusing on cool battle powers rather than the more mundanely useful stuff?

Don’t forget that the 7 Mothers write up is appropriate for a worshipper in Prax, so there’s a natural emphasis for stuff that useful to stay alive when everyone else hates you, and are only stopped from killing you by fear. For such frontiers folk the "mundane" stuff is probably dominating the locals.

I would imagine the cult in the Lunar heartlands would have a different emphasis. Perhaps a bit like the Romans populating their frontiers with veterans, I'm not sure it would be valid if you extrapolate their cults and beliefs to the Roman heartlands.

However, for me, it also has the excellent side effect of making the cult really fun to play (and be a cool adversary for the GM). And, if you can suspend your belief, I'm not ashamed of having roleplay fun as good metric.

Playing someone who is exclusively a potato farmer (and no bow, let alone other strings to it) would be rather boring (well in my campaign). Which also might be the real root cause for the argument about potatoes in Glorantha in that other thread…

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Stephen L said:

Playing someone who is exclusively a potato farmer (and no bow, let alone other strings to it) would be rather boring

Or maybe — it is always only maybe — trying to reinscribe potatoes into the reality of Glorantha is the ultimate magical struggle. Potatoes are the moon underground and the secret to the 4th Age “the moon still exists, but she’s invisible.” The wars and the feeding of gods to the devil — all side shows. Up in the mountains, lonely smallholders are chanting their chants and earthing up their spuds. The real action is offstage … way, way offstage. 😉

[davecake]

On 1/23/2024 at 3:58 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure that carpenters will follow the god of carpenters if it is known that this god is unable to work wood (so unable to bless wood workers).

While I think Gustbran is assumed to be a craftsman himself now, that is really not why he is the god of smiths and potters. He is the god of the forge and the kiln. Lokarnos is the god of the wheel, and may once have been a god of chariots - but now he is mostly worshipped by people who haul goods for money, whether or not his mysteries pay much attention to his mercantile associations. 
 

But also professional dominated cults naturally evolve to become guilds and professional associations. It doesn’t matter if Gustbran is a smith himself, his cult is full of smiths who share their knowledge with other members. If every smith in town is a member, and shares divine worship, trying to keep control over their profession and keeping outsiders out of the business becomes pretty natural, and lets the priests of the cult get pretty tight control. 

Edited January 30 by davecake

[davecake]

On 1/23/2024 at 3:58 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure that carpenters will follow the god of carpenters if it is known that this god is unable to work wood (so unable to bless wood workers).

While I’m not 100% sure whether Orstan the Orlanthi Carpenter god is fully officially consigned to the the Hero Wars publication era memory hole, he could indeed work wood etc.

But it’s really besides the point - I could easily imagine a patron deity of wood workers being instead a tree deity who ensures they can get the fine wood,they need, and without being targeted by Aldryami. Or the god who made the first axes and whittling knives, and still knows the secrets of making the best. 
 

Though the god who manifests the skill in question will be the default - I’m reminded of the Kralorelans, who have the 700 ancestors who each mastered one of the arts of civilization. Certainly not the only pattern. Look at some of the very odd reasons for assigning Catholic patron saints to various professions. 

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

Gustbran is … the god of the forge and the kiln.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

I could easily imagine a patron deity of wood workers … who ensures they can get the fine wood they need

One of the lowfires  — Gustbran or Mahome, but not Oakfed — could be the patron of those who work kiln-dried wood. The bodgers, who work green wood, having a different deity. Perhaps, a suitable patron for those who work with seasoned wood could be found among Entekos , Molanni , or Daga .

Or more than one — there are plenty of gods of killing and mayhem (some without the rune), so why not woodwork? The cabinet maker and lumber gods can be gods of other things, too. We don’t need to create a load of new gods — look at the versatility of Apollo.

[Darius West]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:31 AM, Ali the Helering said:

An implicit problem with RPG religions is that we tend to approach them from the point of view of utility - a cynical rather than faithful approach.  People in the ancient RW generally became members of the city and nation cults so that they indicated who they were, and so that they could uphold the social structures that defended them. Merchants don't worship Issaries/Etyries/Lokarnos for utility, but because they are the gods of their profession.

I don't think that there would be very many Raibanthi doors opened to someone asking "Have you heard the good news about Antirius?" or "Have you invited Krarsht into YOUR life?"  The Seven Mothers missionaries are more about societal change than they are about changing an individual's convictions.

I see where you are coming from Ali by I must disagree. Try looking at Papua New Guinea.  PNG has a totally pragmatic view of their deities.  The mindset is "Deities are supposed to do this thing for us reliably, and if they fail to deliver we offer them extra to make them pay attention, if that fails we punish them in the hopes they will pay attention, then if that fails we sell them on to another tribe".  Many if not all tribal cultures have an entirely similar view.  There is no idea that "I have to worship deity X because they are the patron of my profession, even if he never does anything to help us".  In a world where gods are real and deliver magic on demand, Spiritual Materialism is THE way deities are measured and the market place is crowded.  Heck, even Constantine at the Milvian Bridge decided to give another deity a go to see if they worked.

[Darius West]

So let's take a nice long look at the Seven Mothers Spell list:

Resurrection: 

Who doesn't like being brought back from the dead?  This is a huge benefit, especially given that the spell is reusable just like Chalana Arroy's version.

Regrow Limb: 

Lost limbs are a big deal for anyone without Healing 6, and if you are running low on MP, you can still find yourself without a limb on a bad day.   Another huge draw card.

Truesword: 

This isn't super useful to most ordinary people, but you can cast it on a dagger if you are jumped by a mugger in a dark alley in Mirin's Cross.  It might save your  life.  It is definitely more of a draw for anyone in the military, assuming they use scimitars not spears.

Summon Lune: 

Lunes aren't great elementals.  They are about as useful as shades.  On the other hand, they can fight for you while you run for the hills.  Some utility.

Summon Small Elementals: 

If you like elemental summoning, the Seven Mothers has everything but Sylphs, and sylphs are no great loss.  Gnomes are great for ploughing fields.

Madness: 

A completely worthless spell.  It basically duplicates the effects of a single successful attack by a Lune.  Not even a valid desperation move.

Mind Blast: 

Most people think Mind Blast is an attack spell.  They're wrong.  Mind Blast is a foretaste of what Illumination feels like when you first realize it.               It is also a wonderful way to unwind after a hard day at work.  It hits harder than liquor or hazia, and is totally recreational.  Oh, and you can use it to whammy annoying barbarians; they won't know what hit them.

 

Edited January 30 by Darius West

[Ynneadwraith]

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Mind Blast is a foretaste of what Illumination feels like when you first realize it.

Now this I love! It's a bit like the Skyrend shout in Skyrim that essentially gives the immortal dragons a momentary glimpse of what mortality is like (which is suitably traumatic).

For all its shortcomings compared to the wonderful weirdness of Morrowind, that concept is just *chef's kiss.

[Malin]

41 minutes ago, Darius West said:

also a wonderful way to unwind after a hard day at work.  It hits harder than liquor or hazia, and is totally recreational. 

You have changed my worldview!  Love that way of thinking about it...

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Malin said:

You have changed my worldview!  Love that way of thinking about it...

Quite the costly treatment in terms of rune points. As an introductory treatment, how about Befuddle?

[Malin]

35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Quite the costly treatment in terms of rune points. As an introductory treatment, how about Befuddle?

I mean befuddle is fun for a couple of minutes and a few laughs at a night out on the town. If you really want that blackout-drunk forgetfulness that comes with bad decisions and regret, it's worth two rune points.

[davecake]

6 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

One of the lowfires  — Gustbran or Mahome, but not Oakfed — could be the patron of those who work kiln-dried wood.

In Heortling Mythology there are a bunch of minor Lowfires named, though that wasn’t one of them. Pananala was one, god of the pottery fire (pit firing pottery precedes kilns by millennia). 

If it’s a true kiln, Gustbran maybe. 

6 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

We don’t need to create a load of new gods — look at the versatility of Apollo.

We can also consider that we can effectively consider some new gods to be effectively just new names for old gods.

[Ali the Helering]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Many if not all tribal cultures have an entirely similar view.  There is no idea that "I have to worship deity X because they are the patron of my profession, even if he never does anything to help us". 

That wasn't my point I am afraid, and if it came over that way I apologise.  The question is a matter of in what way that utility is expressed.  It isn't that we approach a deity to cynically obtain a blessing, but rather that we approach the deity because we live within their 'power-environment'.  This is not least why the early Christians were accused of being atheists - they didn't participate in the 'power-environment' of the empire or the city.  In so doing they laid themselves open to the charge of atheism, which was synonymous with treason.

🤣😇🤣🤣 😇

[jajagappa]

16 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

The question is a matter of in what way that utility is expressed.

I think this is often the hard question/issue to get across successfully in a modern game where we don't have active deities.

Perhaps when coming from other RPGs there is an expectation that these are simply transactional, utilitarian arrangements (in exchange for X worship, I get Y spells that are relevant to my occupation and balanced vs other deities)?

Whereas what Glorantha offers is a way-of-life in accord with the deities that help your culture (vs. you the individual) prosper.

[Ynneadwraith]

51 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

That wasn't my point I am afraid, and if it came over that way I apologise.  The question is a matter of in what way that utility is expressed.  It isn't that we approach a deity to cynically obtain a blessing, but rather that we approach the deity because we live within their 'power-environment'.  This is not least why the early Christians were accused of being atheists - they didn't participate in the 'power-environment' of the empire or the city.  In so doing they laid themselves open to the charge of atheism, which was synonymous with treason.

🤣😇🤣🤣 😇

That's a good way of phrasing it.

My mate worked in a coffee shop after graduating. It transpired that every single employee in that coffee shop was in the same pyramid scheme. Although it was objectively a terrible idea and had no relation whatsoever to making coffee, my mate was faced with a choice of joining the pyramid scheme or being let go for 'not being a good cultural fit'.

This is a power-environment in action, and they can get very powerful indeed.

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, Joerg said:

Quite the costly treatment in terms of rune points. As an introductory treatment, how about Befuddle?

Sick of getting your magical high from Befuddle?  Try new Seven Mothers' Mind Blast !  Longer lasting, and more profound, Mind Blast is for those folks who have answered life's riddle.  Initiate at your nearest Temple of the Reaching Moon and try Mind Blast today !  The name says it all, baby !

Edited January 31 by Darius West

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

That wasn't my point I am afraid, and if it came over that way I apologise.  The question is a matter of in what way that utility is expressed.  It isn't that we approach a deity to cynically obtain a blessing, but rather that we approach the deity because we live within their 'power-environment'.  This is not least why the early Christians were accused of being atheists - they didn't participate in the 'power-environment' of the empire or the city.  In so doing they laid themselves open to the charge of atheism, which was synonymous with treason.

🤣😇🤣🤣 😇

Hi Ali,  I get your point, and I understand that it is referencing the Early Christians.  I personally LOVE late roman and "dark ages" history.  I also agree that this was part of why the Christians were accused of Atheism.  So were Jews in the same period.  This was also due to their lack of depiction of their deities.  As you say however, the fact that they wouldn't worship at the Emperor Shrines was a big religious and political no-no in the Roman Era.   Of course what really upset the Romans was early Christian masochistic seeking after martyrdom.  That blew their tiny Roman minds.

As to the actual point...  Ali, buddy, what if we DO cynically seek to obtain the blessing?😅 That is what I meant by Spiritual Materialism.😬  We literally only worship the deity because of the material benefits that worship provides.  This is the PNG model.  🤣

[Ali the Helering]

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is the PNG model.  

Portable Network Graphics?  I suppose that could be construed as a form of missionary activity....

[Ali the Helering]

17 hours ago, Darius West said:

what if we DO cynically seek to obtain the blessing?😅 That is what I meant by Spiritual Materialism.😬  We literally only worship the deity because of the material benefits that worship provides.

Seriously though, this requires the deity to be stupid to the point of drooling imbecility, as a willing victim of Pascal's Wager!  In such a circumstance the term 'worship' doesn't apply since the deity has no worth beyond being a victim of manipulation on the level of grooming. 

In such a circumstance the word 'deity' is inappropriate - maybe 'dumb mana resource'? 🙃

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:04 PM, Ali the Helering said:

That wasn't my point I am afraid, and if it came over that way I apologise.  The question is a matter of in what way that utility is expressed.  It isn't that we approach a deity to cynically obtain a blessing, but rather that we approach the deity because we live within their 'power-environment'.  This is not least why the early Christians were accused of being atheists - they didn't participate in the 'power-environment' of the empire or the city.  In so doing they laid themselves open to the charge of atheism, which was synonymous with treason.

🤣😇🤣🤣 😇

so probably we did not understand each other 🙂

my point is my* god must have power to be in (or to be) your*  'power-environment'

when the god is in the power-environment, yes i agree with you (of course). I play runequest, not XXX 😛

 

 

Edited February 1 by French Desperate WindChild