The utility of the Seven Mothers cult?

[Broadsmile]

So i've been to the Well of Daliath were I learned that the Cult of the Seven Mothers is the largest in the lunar hearthland with 850k worshippers.

But I'm having a hard time understanding the utility of the Seven Mothers cult for the average lunar citizen. With most of the Orlanthi/Praxian cults you seem to get magic practical for everyday life. Your bless crops, control weather, butcher animals etc etc. Even war magic seems more useful to your average barbarian Orlanthi  than a citizen in a resonably stable empire.

But what am I regular  Antipu antipus (Joe Schmoe) going to do with mindblast, madness, reflect and regrow limb.  

Is this a case of double worship where I go to the temple and try to achive Illumination every week (yeah right) to fit in and maintain status. And then I go home and learn useful spells for my actual job from Lash-Wash the god of street sweepers?

Is this just a case of the game focusing on cool battle powers rather than the more mundanely useful stuff?

Is there some tangible benefit to being 0,001% Illuminated?

 

-Antipu Antipus. confused citizen

[Nick Brooke]

Most Lunar citizens/subjects don’t want or need to be illuminated. But the Seven Mothers teach useful lessons about how the world works, and those who take them on board have an easier time fitting into the imperial system.

[Ali the Helering]

An implicit problem with RPG religions is that we tend to approach them from the point of view of utility - a cynical rather than faithful approach.  People in the ancient RW generally became members of the city and nation cults so that they indicated who they were, and so that they could uphold the social structures that defended them. Merchants don't worship Issaries/Etyries/Lokarnos for utility, but because they are the gods of their profession.

I don't think that there would be very many Raibanthi doors opened to someone asking "Have you heard the good news about Antirius?" or "Have you invited Krarsht into YOUR life?"  The Seven Mothers missionaries are more about societal change than they are about changing an individual's convictions.

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

1 hour ago, Broadsmile said:

 I learned that the Cult of the Seven Mothers is ....

But what am I regular  Antipu antipus (Joe Schmoe) going to do with mindblast, madness, reflect and regrow limb.  

Regrow Limb is pretty good to have in a world where the stevedpres haul bales by hand instead of with an electric crane, similarly with a lot of heavy work.  Lots of crushed limbs. 

 But the real benefits are (1) that you learn about the Lunar Way.  (2) You are in with the new power structure, so are upwardly mobile.

Edited January 22 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[radmonger]

Mindblast is excellent non-lethal self defense, like a Lightning that never leaves you with a wergeld bill.

Madness is a deterrent, a threat that can sometimes scare those inured to mere death.

Regrow Limb means you don't have to 'gift' a years income to the White Ladies, or hoard your rune magic jealously in case of a medical emergency that may never come.

Reflection is a good counter to all the people you deal with who know Mindblast.

It's not really a cult for farmers or warriors, but for citizens, city dwellers. Albeit citizens of the lowest ranking and most provincial sort.

 

 

[metcalph]

The 850k figure includes individual cults to the Seven Mothers and not the Seven Mothers as a whole as presented in RQ:G. 

Irrippi is a knowledge cult. 

Yanafal is a warrior cult. 

Deezola is an earth cult. 

That's a large chunk of useful cults right there. 

[scott-martin]

33 minutes ago, Broadsmile said:

But what am I regular  Antipu antipus (Joe Schmoe) going to do with mindblast, madness, reflect and regrow limb.  

IMG most of this magic is an application of the real work of the 7M cult, which is the cultivation of personal psychological states . . . not quite the radical individuality of full illumination but a kind of progressive realization that social identity is a construct and the imagination has power. Thus someone who is advanced in 7M meditation will naturally figure out how to trigger similar states in others or shake off / repel magical aggression. You know the underpinnings of consciousness. That's the important part. The weaponized forms are good for the conventional character sheet but really incidental . . . they point toward another kind of game that might or might not show up when lunar heroquesting rules are published.

(Regrow Limb is a secret of Dying Moon therapy and so is a little different.)
 

[metcalph]

In addition, the Seven Mothers can serve as a stepping stone to more demanding cults.  Take for example Irrippi Ontor.  The requirements to become an initiate are pretty high. But join the Seven Mothers and you can study towards becoming a fully fledged Red Sage while not being so tied to the desk. 

Of course we you do make it via such a route, you might have to put up with snobbery about getting your degree from the Empire's equivalent of the University of American Samoa. 

 

[Jeff]

Ultimately, the appeal of the Seven Mothers is that they allow you to approach the Red Goddess. And that big Red Moon floating in the sky above you is an obvious reminder of Her importance and significance. By worshiping the Seven Mothers, you participate in her rebirth, and begin a path towards your own spiritual liberation. 

And it doesn't hurt that by initiating into the Seven Mothers (or other Lunar cults) you became a citizen of the Lunar Empire, and not merely a subject. You become part of the Lunar ummah which transcends tribe and city. 

In four centuries, a little over a third of the Lunar Heartlands are initiated into the Lunar Way, with the Seven Mothers being by leaps and bounds the most popular path. I suspect it is very overrepresented in the towns and cities, and underrepresented among the unskilled labourers and peasantry. 

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

And it doesn't hurt that by initiating into the Seven Mothers (or other Lunar cults) you became a citizen of the Lunar Empire, and not merely a subject. You become part of the Lunar ummah which transcends tribe and city. 

 

Does this confer any specific legal rights or privileges? (like being freed from serfdom or getting rights to appeal to certain courts or something to do with taxation or tithe) Or is it more a case of convention and case by case? (ie. Lunar authorities are likely to see you as somewhat reliable and preferable to deal with and to hand work or responsibility to, etc., non-Lunar authorities within the Empire are more likely to not hinder you as much to avoid getting in trouble)

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Merchants don't worship Issaries/Etyries/Lokarnos for utility, but because they are the gods of their profession.

Is there really a difference ? As individual, I agree with you, you join your [local] profession's cult, in the same way that you join the guild (well... probably the guild is the cult or a subcult)

But in a world where gods actions are visible and not discussed at all (aka this entity exists there is no doubt. The question is more "is it good to worship it or not"),

I m not sure that carpenters will follow the god of carpenters if it is known that this god is unable to work wood (so unable to bless wood workers).

In fact the god of carpenters is the god of carpenters because it is the god who have mastered/created Carpentry.

[Ali the Helering]

27 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I m not sure that carpenters will follow the god of carpenters if it is known that this god is unable to work wood (so unable to bless wood workers).

I really don't see how such a being could become that god

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is there really a difference ? As individual, I agree with you, you join your [local] profession's cult, in the same way that you join the guild (well... probably the guild is the cult or a subcult)

But in a world where gods actions are visible and not discussed at all (aka this entity exists there is no doubt. The question is more "is it good to worship it or not"),

I m not sure that carpenters will follow the god of carpenters if it is known that this god is unable to work wood (so unable to bless wood workers).

In fact the god of carpenters is the god of carpenters because it is the god who have mastered/created Carpentry.

The question is whether such a god will have a cult and initiates, or whether the god will be an associate of one of the greater temples with a shrine and a single rune spell, or a spirit cult with a shaman or godspeaker officiating for the guild.

Most professional cults don't offer much in the way of answering the big questions or offering an afterlife (other than endless toil).

[radmonger]

There is a natural spectrum from Orlanth LightBringer, King of the Gods to Barntar the Ploughman, to a farmer's guild that maintains a shrine to Barntar, to one that doesn't. In Glorantha, the latter will only exist in a society that has magical specialists who make the idea of a farmer learning a bit of magic a quaint relic.

The Lunar College of Agriculture is only embryonic, and by no means as famous as the more military colleges. So far, there is only the much-feared and derided potato to show for all the heroic research it has done. 

But still, the liberatory promise of the Seven Mothers is that you can become a free citizen with an independent spiritual life. You are not forced to adopt a particular world view, become a particular type of person, simply because society needs you to be a warrior, a mother or a plumber.

 

Edited January 23 by radmonger

[Malin]

Also, I suspect we will know more in March when the Lunar cult book comes out. Things might have changed a bit there. I am particularly interested in how communal seven mothers worship interacts with worship of a particular seven mother.

Is an initiate of Yanafal Tarnils counted as a Seven Mother worshipper, for example? Or would a dual initiation be needed there?

[Techpriest]

9 minutes ago, Malin said:

Also, I suspect we will know more in March when the Lunar cult book comes out. Things might have changed a bit there. I am particularly interested in how communal seven mothers worship interacts with worship of a particular seven mother.

Is an initiate of Yanafal Tarnils counted as a Seven Mother worshipper, for example? Or would a dual initiation be needed there?

I would guess it would be more like a subcult akin to Barntar - they can be easily worshipped as their own god, but also grant a special spell or training to the Seven Mothers cult as a whole. Yanafal Tarnils is a warrior's god, and has association with Humakt, with a friendly rivalry between the two. I'd expect the priest/priestess dedicated to the Seven Mothers as a whole to not have the same sort of combat training as a Runepriest or Runelord of Yanafal Tarnils, and I wouldn't expect that Yanafal Tarnils Runelord/Runepriest to know the same kind of fertility magic that Seven Mothers priest/priestess would know. They both give homage to Yanafa Tarnils, but I would guess the Seven Mothers would be more focused on his role in relation to the other Mothers, while the cult of Yanafal Tarnils focused more on his deeds, actions, teachings, and such. It's a specialization into an aspect akin to Orlanth Adventurous or Orlanth Thunderous, I'd say. 

[Malin]

Yeah, sometimes the Seven Mothers feel like a very organized version of the Lightbringers to me, but where the focus is on the whole rather than the parts. I want this cult book sooo badly!

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Malin said:

I am particularly interested in how communal seven mothers worship interacts with worship of a particular seven mother.

Common sense says that if you learn a single spell from a 7M temple, you are an initiate of the god represented by that spell. Future spells from the same temple count as coming from the associated cult. Future spells learnt from a dedicated temple just count as the normal case. Either way you have a single Rune Pool.

Basically, a 7M temple is just 7 shrines under a common roof. Priests of the Seven Mothers Cult are those employed at such a temple.  They get some extra common magic and _maybe_ a few extra Rune Spells.

No doubt the actual rules will be something more complex.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

I really don't see how such a being could become that god

what I meant is that choosing a god (among your cultural pantheon) because its utility Or because it is your god's profession is exactly the same

if it is the god's profession it is because the god is very good (if not the best) in the profession so it is useful for you, professional

And in the other way, choosing a god for its utility for your profession (or your way of life) is choosing the same god that all professionals (or those following the same path than you) choosed before you (aka the profession's god)

 

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The question is whether such a god will have a cult and initiates, or whether the god will be an associate of one of the greater temples with a shrine and a single rune spell, or a spirit cult with a shaman or godspeaker officiating for the guild.

Most professional cults don't offer much in the way of answering the big questions or offering an afterlife (other than endless toil).

Oh I agree, it seems profession's god are worshipped as subcult of the god of all, potentialy of your "caste" (orlanth, ernalda, lodril, kl, etc...) or with a double initiation. What I understand is a profession's god has its one independant cult when the god is more than an extra in the film showing the main myths  of your pantheon. So Issaries, LM, etc.. but not Odayla

[Ali the Helering]

15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what I meant is that choosing a god (among your cultural pantheon) because its utility Or because it is your god's profession is exactly the same

if it is the god's profession it is because the god is very good (if not the best) in the profession so it is useful for you, professional

I am afraid I have to disagree.  It is a matter of intentionality - am I doing this to benefit me, or because it is the appropriate thing to do?

[Ynneadwraith]

18 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what I meant is that choosing a god (among your cultural pantheon) because its utility Or because it is your god's profession is exactly the same

You're correct that it's a little bit of both. A God of Carpenters that is useless to carpenters will probably get replaced by one that isn't fairly promptly.

However, what Ali was pointing out is that from a culturally modern perspective we're almost singularly obsessed with whether something is individually practical (or, at least, we think we are). In our modern world, the value of tradition for tradition's sake, and doing something because that's what everyone else is doing, is at an all time low ebb. This is due to a whole host of cultural changes and technical innovations supporting/driving this extreme-individualistic way of thinking that simply don't exist in the cultural context we're thinking of in Glorantha.

So, a wholly valid answer to the question 'Why are there so many 7M cultists when X cult is more practical' could be 'Because that is what good lunars do'. How it got to be something that good lunars do is an interesting question, but in my opinion you should never underestimate the power of social pressure and good advertising (see Jeff's comment about the sodding great moon hanging overhead).

Edited January 23 by Ynneadwraith

[Ynneadwraith]

1 minute ago, Ali the Helering said:

I am afraid I have to disagree.  It is a matter of intentionality - am I doing this to benefit me, or because it is the appropriate thing to do?

Agreed.

Take seppuku as an example. The social custom of painful ritual suicide when faced with situations that many other cultures (including our modern ones) just don't care about is objectively a catastrophic decision on a practical individual level. Almost anything would be better. However, people did it regularly because that's what a good samurai was expected to do.

Now you can argue about practical benefits of avoiding social reprisal against family members and things like that, but that's just the other side of the coin of 'social pressure forcing individuals to take decisions that disbenefit them'.

People both historically and currently make a multitude of decisions that disbenefit themselves, simply because that is a thing that is done. The reasoning for why it is a thing that is done may be practical at a different level, or it could be entirely impractical. For another example utilising ritual suicide, one of the reasons the Dacians struggled against the Romans was a cultural practice of ritual suicide when a warrior was captured. This was impractical both on a personal and a cultural level as not only were you individually dead, but it also deprived Dacia of warriors at a faster rate than it needed to. Yet it happened, because it was a thing that was done.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

When a PC declines to gain a rune point when they sacrifice POW to join a cult, I will believe that they do it because "it is right" or "traditional".

[Ynneadwraith]

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

When a PC declines to gain a rune point when they sacrifice POW to join a cult, I will believe that they do it because "it is right" or "traditional".

Clearly they lack Commitment To The Bit 😄

[Ynneadwraith]

11 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

When a PC declines to gain a rune point when they sacrifice POW to join a cult, I will believe that they do it because "it is right" or "traditional".

Alternatively, perhaps play should be adapted slightly for lunar provinces. If you wanted to look at it from a practicality perspective, what does it tell us about Lunar society that these spells are popular? Social condemnation for wounding someone in a fight would do that nicely (either enforced by city guards, or even better by social ostracisation).

If that's the case, suddenly non-lethal rune-spells are at a premium (as Radmonger suggested). Or even the ability to 'make right' a wound using Regrow Limb. Perhaps having someone die of madness is a lot more plausibly deniable compared to hacking their limb off with a sword (especially considering they're in a culture that has a lot more Chaos bimbling around).

Edited January 23 by Ynneadwraith