seneschal Posted September 22, 2011 Share Posted September 22, 2011 Waaaaay back, during the first frenzy of Big Gold Book excitement, there were at least two superhero monographs proposed. Anything ever come of them? So far, we've had Dragon Lines published for kung fu butt-kicking but no four-color spandex action. Is it that BRP-ers just aren't into comics? Or have they decided that their favorite system isn't the best to depict supers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpgstarwizard Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I still run and play Superworld, but most people feel that they prefer Hero system, or V&V, either system for me fails, but a gm can only do what his zombies, I mean . players want, hell introducing BRP to newbies is hard enough, with the zombies wnating to play dnd 3.75, I mean Pathfinder and 4thed. There have been some great interpretations of various heroes in the files, so I am curious why isn't BRP/Superworld a good enough system? The players that don't like it feel it isn't crunchy enough, or for some reason don't like %iles, even if you explain 3d6 are still %iles, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 Although BRP can do superheroes, it is not exactly its sweet spot. Consider that, except for Chaosium and Mongoose, _all_ other parties that produce d100 stuff also make bits and pieces for HeroQuest (d101, Alephtar, Design Mechanism, etc.). And superheroes are exactly in the middle of the HQ sweet spot. So, if one of us wanted to make a superhero game (and I have discussed this possibility more than once during the last months), his goto system would probably not be BRP. Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skunkape Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I don't know that players are looking for a more crunchy system per say, to me it's more like RosenMcStern said, other systems seem to have a better sweet spot than BRP. Even M&M seems to be better suited for superhero play. Quote Skunk - 285/420 BRP book You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpgstarwizard Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think I understand, but as with Champions you can do anything with Superworld BRP, as for M&M, I never liked the system, the only thing about M&M and Champions is the amount of material produced, funny thing I prefer WEGd6 way over Champions and M&M for Superplay. I of course did start with Champions and even V&V before Superworld, I just like the system better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ORtrail Posted September 23, 2011 Share Posted September 23, 2011 I think BRP works well with a "limited" type of Supers game. I wouldn't try to have characters much beyond the level of Spider-man. Try to stat up the Hulk or Thor and things get funky rather quickly. That said, I love the lower level type heroes and have run both pulp heroes and low level supers campaigns very successfully with BRP. Some, maybe most players, would prefer the higher powered characters so you'd be better off looking at a different game system, IMHO. That is why, I believe, we have not seen any real BGB Supers stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpgstarwizard Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 "Levels " Are the thing .But that is true with all superhero games, Run Thor Level with Spidey in MSH, things can get messy. The thing is that the characters have to be within similiar levels. In Champions a 250-300 point Character going against Doc Destroyer and his gang well, gets ugly. We have had some really powerful characters in Superworld and they did fine. But that is how it is in groups , each characters has strengths and weaknesses. In M&M Hulk is Str 40ish iirc, a Minuteman , sorry Sentinel, lol is 40. Most characters are in the normal human range. Again I think some people get a certain system in their mind feels comfortable, I was like that with Hero for a long while, yet evolved back to BRP. Mostly because I had the game, SW, and was tired of Constantly playing catch up with the new editions. BRP is a constant system, have had some evolution, but doesnt get too bogged down. Don't get me wrong being a gaming trollop I go where the players are, or need me and have run most superhero systems some I really can't stand, like V&V (except for the random powers, ) M&M, Champs 1-5, etc. I though still feel BRP can stand up against any system and come out well. it is adaptable, without getting too unbalanced. Ok, off my soapbox, next? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 Here's a comparison I did among BRP, Hero System 5th, and 4C (Marvel Superheroes retro-clone) ... I'll begin with a comparison of Basic Roleplaying (the Big Gold Book) and Hero System, 5th edition (the Big Black Book). Both volumes are compilations of venerable rules sets that have evolved over time from specific genres (BRP began as RuneQuest, Hero as Champions) into generic systems. I've been surprised by the similarities I've found between the two systems. But they do handle many things very differently. Both set the human average for characteristics at 10; BRP scales up to 18 for normal people, Hero up to 20. Strength damage and lifting ability scale differently for each game; Hero, which began as a superhero game, is much more precise. BRP includes a SIZ stat, which is a general measure of a character's tallness and mass; Hero doesn't have anything of the sort. All damage in BRP is lethal damage; there are ways to "pull your punches" but it isn't the default. Hero System, in contrast, assumes attacks do mostly stun damage unless specifically designed to kill. In general, BRP characters are much more "realistic" and fragile, while Hero characters tend to be cinematic and durable. Concept: I elected to attempt a simple construct, your basic big, tough, strong guy. Aurochs – Chad Spellman was a white-collar criminal specializing in unauthorized electronic funds transfer and identity theft. Not as clever as he thought he was, Spellman was fleeing the FBI when he was offered help by a shadowy organization: Tertiary Augmentation Unified Research Underworld Syndicate (TAURUS). The group’s arcane experiments transformed the paunchy hacker into 700-something pounds of muscle, literally as strong as an ox. Unfortunately, side-effects included a violent temper, long curving bovine horns, and a bushy bullish tail. Spellman, now calling himself “Aurochs,” is attempting to recreate himself as a super-powered gang leader, with a focus still on computer-based crime. He does occasional jobs for TAURUS as payment for his powers. The truth is, the oversized Aurochs needs helpers. He’s too big and heavy to drive a car and must ride in a truck or paneled van driven by an associate. He also stands out in a crowd and must stay behind the scenes when his underlings are required do the necessary research in public places. Basic Roleplaying Mechanics: Strength, Constitution, Size, Intelligence, Power, Dexterity, and Appearance. Pretty self-explanatory. Power measures a character's strength of will, spirituality, and affinity for magic and/or super powers. Appearance is your basic Charisma stat. BRP characteristics are usually randomly rolled on 3D6 but can be adjusted afterward. A random raw roll for characteristics produced STR 9, CON 13, SIZ 15, INT 11, POW 12, DEX 10, APP 7. Overall, not a bad set of stats; strength is slightly below normal (but we’re going to “super” Spellman up anyway), and his low APP matches the ultimate outcome of TAURUS’ tinkering. The total of the characteristics provides 77 power points to buy super powers with. I took on Failings to provide 10 more. I spent 63 of Aurochs’ 87 points on enhanced characteristics, none of which will require power points (energy) to use later on. The remaining 24 points I spent on armor, since I wanted Aurochs to be resistant to multiple types of damage. Given the nature of his Failings (which I’ll detail later), I also decided he should have Natural Weapon (horns) from the Mutations chapter, since the Super Powers chapter didn’t give me the option. They do 1D6+db. The result looks like this: STR 40 CON 30 SIZ 30 INT 11 POW 12 DEX 10 APP 7 Move: 10 Hit Points: 30 (60 if using SIZ + CON option) Damage Bonus: +3D6 Armor: 8 points (Kinetic, Heat, Electrical) According to the extended SIZ chart, Aurochs has a mass somewhere between 700 and 800 pounds. Based on the object SIZ chart, his 40 Strength would enable him to lift a small airplane (but not an automobile) and burst through a brick wall like Superman (well, most of the time). His average hand-to-hand damage (1D3+3D6) is roughly equivalent to being whacked by a medieval halberd or shot by an elephant gun. His 8 points of armor provides physical protection similar that given by a medieval suit of plate armor or a modern bulletproof vest; plus he's protected against fire and electricity at a similar level. OK, so Aurochs can’t clobber the Hulk, but he might be able to take on Luke Cage aka Power Man. As a supervillain, Aurochs has 500 points to spend on professional skills and 275 points (INT x 25) to spend on personal skills. Whew! That’s a lot of points to allocate. While characteristics are randomly rolled, BRP's skill system is a point-buy affair. Skills are rated by a percentage, and skills begin with a default level ranging from 0% to 30%, depending on what they are. So those 775 points may go pretty fast, after all. We'll figure out Aurochs' skills in Part 2. Hero System Mechanics: While characteristics are randomly rolled in Basic Roleplaying, Hero System is a full point-buy system. Standard 5th edition superheroes begin with 200 points and can take up to 150 points worth of Disadvantages to boost their abilities. Hero System characteristics are divided into two parts: primary characteristics and figured characteristics (the latter are analogous to BRP’s derived characteristics). The primary characteristics are similar to their BRP counterparts – Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Body, Intelligence, Ego, Presence, and Comeliness. Body is a character’s hit points and can be bought up by the player, unlike BRP Hit Points (which are derived from the average of SIZ and CON and tend to stay the same). Ego is analogous to Power in BRP. Presence and Comeliness roughly equate BRP’s Appearance. Since the scale of normal level characteristics is similar between the two systems, it isn’t a problem to keep some of them the same. A CON of 30 is pretty darn impressive in either game. INT of 11 and EGO of 12 is fine, too. Aurochs isn’t a strong-willed genius. We’ll reduce Comeliness from the standard 10 to 6; Aurochs is kind of ugly, and it will save us 2 character points. Presence determines both how brave a Hero character is and how impressive he is to others. We’ll probably want to beef that up (pun intended). Determining his Strength, Dexterity and Body will require some thought. Based on his BRP lifting ability and hand-to-hand damage, Aurochs’ Hero System STR would be 28. That enables him to lift a medium-sized missile (but again, not a car), punch through some walls, and dish out 5-1/2D6 worth of damage. Translated into killing damage (the kind that reduces Body), that’s 2D6-1, about the amount a big polearm like a halberd does, equivalent to BRP’s 1D3+3D6. Here’s where we begin to see some of the differences between the two games. While a 40 STR in BRP won’t allow you to arm-wrestle Cthulhu, it is amazing for most player-characters. A 28 STR in Hero is much better than a normal person and would enable a character to easily slap around a group of thugs. Compared to many published NPC heroes and villains, however, it’s kind of wimpy, particularly since I envisioned Aurochs as a big powerhouse. Speaking of “big,” Hero System doesn’t have anything like BRP’s SIZ characteristic. However, Aurochs’ 700+ pounds of mass would give him the equivalent of 15 points of Growth. Since he’s that size all the time, he won’t use the Growth power. We’ll just give him similar benefits: +3 Body, extra reach compared to 6-foot people, being harder to knock out or knock back in combat. In Hero System, Aurochs stands about 12 feet tall in addition to being so heavy. His mass provides most of his enhanced strength. And it also provides a 20-point Physical Limitation Disadvantage. The world is his china closet. While DEX 10 is fine in BRP, where combat competence is divorced from a character’s physical abilities (more on that later), it is positively clumsy in Hero System even compared to non-superheroic player-characters. In versions of Hero System before 6th edition, a character’s basic ability to hit or avoid being hit was tied to Dexterity. In order to keep up with the Joneses, we’ll increase Aurochs’ DEX to 15. That makes him as agile as an American Bison, and most James Bond or Indiana Jones style PCs. We’ve already determined that his mass would probably equip Aurochs with a BODY of at least 13. However, the 1st edition Hero System Bestiary (1986) I own indicates that most large cattle have BODY of 20 or above. We’ll cut Aurochs some slack and give him 23 BODY, the same as an African Cape Buffalo. At first blush, this seems inferior to his BRP Hit Points. However, most attacks in Hero System do much less lethal damage than those in BRP, particularly when we’re talking about superhero brawls. Since we’re also going to give him super defenses, Aurochs will be just fine. So Aurochs’ primary characteristics will look like this: 28 STR (18) 15 DEX (15) 30 CON (40) 23 BODY (26) 11 INT (1) 12 EGO (4) 20 PRE (10) 6 COM (-2) So far, we’ve spent 112 of Aurochs’ starting character points. That’s appropriate, since his improved physical stats are his main power. Plus we can take on Disadvantages to get more points if we need to. Raw secondary characteristics based on his primary stats would be: 6 PD 6 ED 2.5 SPD 12 REC 60 END 52 STUN PD and ED are Physical Defense and Energy Defense. In Hero System, characters automatically have some protection against attacks that aren’t specifically designed to do killing damage. PD and ED of 6 are pretty good for a normal person, low for a superhero. That’s OK. We’re going to buy Aurochs armor when we get to powers. Hero characters have a Speed that enables them to move and attack in a combat system somewhat similar to BRP strike ranks. Since partial SPD doesn’t count, we’ll spend another 5 points to give Aurochs a 3 SPD, meaning he can take three actions in a 12-second combat round. That’s typical for a movie-style action hero, and Chad Spellman is no Spider-Man. Recovery determines how fast a character gets his wind back and heals. Endurance determines how much activity a character can take before he gets tuckered out. Stun determines how much non-lethal damage a character can take before he gets knocked out. Aurochs is pretty good on all three counts, so we’ll leave them as-is. With the sole improvement of SPD, we’ve increased the cost of Aurochs’ characteristics to 117 points. Powers There are two approaches a superhero game can take towards powers. One is to attempt to list and provide descriptions of and rules for every comic book ability that the authors can think of (cold powers, flame powers, molten asphalt powers, etc.). The other is to take an effects-based approach; provide a set of flexible powers that the player can describe and/or use to model whatever abilities he wants. Mechanically, “blast” is the same power, but the player can describe it as a jet of flame, magnetic force, or a stream of icicles. BRP takes the former approach, Hero System the latter. Both systems allow players to purchase powers for their characters by allocating build points and to increase those points by taking on disadvantages or failings for their hero. Both systems allow players to modify those powers, limiting how they work to achieve different effects and to gain more build points. However, BRP’s starting build points are based on the total of a character’s randomly rolled characteristics; all heroes are not created equal. Hero System gives each character the same number of points to start, although players may elect to take on different amounts of disadvantages. Hero System provides 65 powers, Basic Roleplaying 34. The old Worlds of Wonder Superworld had abilities not listed in the current edition of the rules. The author of BRP wanted to provide enough powers to enable superheroic play but felt he couldn’t cram the whole of Superworld’s options into the system’s core book. Because there are such a variety of powers and modifiers in each game, I chose to build a guy whose powers were mainly enhanced characteristics, as previously mentioned. However, many of Aurochs’ physical abilities in Hero System require purchasing powers. For starters, we’ll tackle his defenses. Eight points of physical armor in Hero System is the same as 8 points of armor in BRP. Since energy defense doesn’t differentiate among types of energy in Hero System as it does in BRP, we’ll purchase 8 PD/8 ED Armor for 24 character points. For normal, non-killing attacks, he’ll get to stack his regular PD/ED on top of his armor, for a total defense of 14. He’s not invulnerable, but that isn’t too bad. With his high Stun and plentiful END, he’ll be able to take a few hits and keep on fighting. Aurochs’ 1D6 horns would be purchased as a Hand-to-Hand Killing Attack for 15 points. His extra mass would give him -3 inches of Knockback Resistance (6 points) in combat, his height an extra 6 feet of reach (1 inch of Stretching, another 5 points). That’s a total of 50 points spent on powers, 167 points overall. That leaves 33 points to spend on skills before we have to take any Disadvantages to pay for them. Although, based on his description, Aurochs should have a number of Disadvantages, which we’ll deal with later. Skills Skills were sort of tacked on to Champions 3rd edition as an afterthought. Despite their relative cheapness in terms of character build points, players sometimes had to choose between a nifty set of skills or really cool powers until Hero System 5th edition increased starting points for superheroes. Skills are rated on a 3D6 roll under, and range from 8- (good luck!) to 18- (pretty good). A skill’s starting level is influenced by its related characteristic. A character with a high Dexterity, for example, will start out better at Stealth or Acrobatics than a character with an average stat. You can compensate for a low related characteristic by buying up the level of a specific skill, but it is often more efficient to buy up the characteristic and boost several skills at once. In contrast, in Basic Roleplaying skills are divorced from a character’s stats. A character can have an average or low DEX but still thrive with his Gymnastics or Sniper Rifle 85% skill (roll under skill level using two D100s to succeed), even if he’s a klutz in other matters. A BRP character is his skills, since characteristics and hit points tend to stay the same but skill levels can improve over time. BRP suggests that characters pick a suite of skills, based on profession. Since Chad Spellman is both a Computer Tech and a Criminal, we’ll choose both, plus a handful of “personal” skills to round him out. Aurochs can afford two careers since he’s got twice the number of skill points as a normal PC. Attacks: Brawl 25%, 1D3+3D6; Grapple 25%, 1D3+3D6; Head Butt 25%, 1D6+3D6; Heavy Pistol 20%, 1D10+2 Bargain 5%; Command 5%; Craft (Computer Code) 5%; Craft (Alternate Electronic Identity) 5%; Dodge 20%; Drive 20%; Fast Talk 5%; Gaming 23%; Hide 10%; Knowledge (Accounting) 5%; Knowledge (Computer Fraud) 5%; Knowledge (Law) 5%; Language (English) 55%; Language (Programming Language) 0%; Listen 25%; Persuade 15%; Repair (Electronics) 15%; Research 25%; Science (Mathematics) 1%; Status 15%; Stealth 10%; Strategy 1%; Technical (Computer Use) 1%; Throw 25% The percentages listed are the base, before Aurochs spends his skill points. Hero System skills Perk: Four 50-point Followers (20) Bugging 11- (3) Computer Programming 13- (7) Concealment 13- (7) Disguise 11- (3) Electronics 13- (7) Forgery 11- (3) Interrogation 13- (3) Language (Programming Language, fluent) (3) Persuasion 13- (3) Professional Skill: Hacker 13- (4) Running +6” (12” Total) (12) Security Systems 13- (7) Stealth 12- (3) Streetwise 13- (3) Systems Operation 11- (3) Trading 13- (3) Weapons Familiarity: Small Arms, Common Melee Weapons (4) +2 Skill Levels in Hand-to-Hand Combat (10) Aurochs’ skills represent his competence at electronic crime and his ability to deal with the underworld. His increased Running enables him to run as fast as a horse (or in this case, a cow). He has four thugs to assist him, each with a base of 50 points. They can take on Disadvantages, too, to increase their points. Aurochs knows how to use common firearms and melee weapons but isn’t especially good with them. However, his skill levels in unarmed fighting boost his brawling ability with his hands or his horns. Combat effectiveness in Hero System is rated by Offensive Combat Value (OCV) and Defensive Combat Value (DCV). To attack, a player rolls his character’s OCV + 11, minus the target character’s DCV. If he rolls under 11- on 3D6, he hits. So having a high OCV and DCV is a good thing. Before 6th edition, both values were based on a character’s DEX, divided by 3. Aurochs’ OCV and DCV, because of his DEX 15, are each 5. His skill levels increase his OCV to 7 in hand-to-hand combat, but it remains 5 when he uses a gun or knife. His DCV stays 5 (which is why he needs Armor). Earlier, I noted that he had 33 of his base points left to spend on skills, but I’ve spent 108. That means Aurochs’ needs to take on Disadvantages to pay for his abilities. Fortunately, his origin story gives us several obvious ones: Physical Limitation: Always 12-feet tall, 800 pounds (constant, major inconvenience) (20) Distinctive Features: Twelve-foot-tall bull man (not concealable, major reaction) (20) Subject to Orders 8- by TAURUS (infrequent, major risk) (10) Psychological Limitation: Violent temper (common, strong) (15) Psychological Limitation: Ladies’ man (common) (10) That gives us the 75 extra points we needed. How effective a villain is Aurochs in Hero System? Well, he’d be in trouble in a toe-to-toe fight against the Hulk or the Flash, but against street-level martial arts heroes or Avengers-style secret agents he’s a pretty good boss. He’s kind of a behind the scenes type of guy, anyway. So heroes will be struggling to unravel Aurochs’ schemes and tangling with his agents long before they actually meet him. In my old 3rd and 4th edition games, a 275-point villain was pretty standard since heroes were limited to 250. In a 5th edition game, where heroes get up to 350 points, Aurochs would ironically be considered low powered. We said we’d come back to Aurochs’ Failings for BRP. Although the points involved are scaled differently than for Hero System, the effect is pretty much the same: Super powers on full-time, +5 Bad temper, +3 Responsible to TAURUS, infrequent, +1 Ladies’ man, +1 4C version I never played Marvel Superheroes, although members of my gaming group enjoyed it. I don’t own it, but I do have a hard copy of its retro-clone, 4C. Unlike BRP and Hero System, everything in 4C is randomly rolled: traits, number of skills, number of powers, and the powers themselves. It’s much lighter, a less detailed and exact game, no Strength or Size charts here. It uses percentile dice exclusively. Both traits and the effectiveness of powers are measured in ranks rather than in exact numbers, accompanied by descriptions: Feeble, Average, Amazing, Unearthly, etc. There are 25 possible powers on the basic chart, 50 on the advanced chart. I had intended to use the point-buy rules devised by Curt Meyers and Bill Browne to assign the values needed to reproduce Aurochs for 4C. However, on a whim I began random rolling and rolled well, gaining a fitting set of primary traits, three skills, and four powers. Marvel Superheroes karma must have been with me. The only “cheating” I did was to pick the powers instead of rolling randomly for them. Character Origin: Changed Human (one Primary Trait increased by +10) Primary Traits: Melee: Rank 30 (Maximum human limit) Coordination: Rank 20 (Exceptional human) Brawn: Rank 45 (Low superhuman) Fortitude: Rank 55 (Superhuman) Intellect: Rank 20 (Exceptional human) Awareness: Rank 20 (Exceptional human) Willpower: Rank (Above-average human) Secondary Traits: Damage: 150 Fortune: 40 Lifestyle: 40 (Head of a large, international corporation) Repute: 7 Skills: Hacking, Electronics, Contact: TAURUS Powers: Body Armor, Rank 20 Horns, Rank 6 Trait Increase (+15 Rank to two primary traits, Brawn and Fortitude) Headquarters (Fenced, multi-building compound) And that’s it. In general, the 4C version of Aurochs is smarter, more agile, more intuitive, and more competent in a brawl than his BRP and Hero System incarnations, and without those annoying Disadvantages or Failings. He’s much richer, too, the head of a Microsoft-style software and computing empire with a large R&D campus to work from. Here, Chad Spellman is less the fledgling thug boss and more the Lex Luthor style mastermind. On quirk typical of 4C, Aurochs’ fearsome horns (the Claws power, Rank 6) do less damage than his fists (Melee, Rank 30). It isn’t the first time I’ve random-rolled a 4C character whose “unique” equipment, weapon or body part does less damage than a simple punch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Why didn't you point-buy the stats in BRP? SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 Why didn't you point-buy the stats in BRP? SDLeary Good question. For a couple reasons. First, since I knew I was going to beef up STR, CON and SIZ anyway, I could make due with a set of rolls where the remaining stats were at least average. Since he wasn't going to be a genius inventor, psychic or super speedster, Aurochs could get away with regular characteristics in those areas. BRP characters are all about their amazing skill percentages, even if their characteristics are so-so. If RuneQuest warriors, Cthulhu investigators, and Ringworld explorers all have to "roll the dice and deal with it," who does Captain Jacksonville think he is? Second, while the BRP point-buy system prevents a character from having truly terrible stats, there's an off chance in random-roll of gaining an awesome characteristic or two of 16 or above that's missing otherwise. Had the dice rolled more favorably, Aurochs might have been the Lex Luthor-ish mastermind in BRP that he is in 4C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaot Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Nice breakdown seneschal. Thanks for that. I think you're dead on about how heavy skills play into the effectiveness of a BRP character. I think BRP works well with a "limited" type of Supers game. I wouldn't try to have characters much beyond the level of Spider-man. Try to stat up the Hulk or Thor and things get funky rather quickly. I've heard this a lot but I suspect it can handle higher powered games, especially if you swap out some options like skills above 100% and mook rules. Quote 70/420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 I played in a SuperWorld campaign way back when and didn't really like it as the system just didn't suit Supers. I also played Supers using HeroQuest and it worked immediately. Although I am a massive fan of BRP, I just don't think it suits Supers. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted September 24, 2011 Author Share Posted September 24, 2011 For superheroic play, did you find BRP too lethal? Too cumbersome? The powers too limited or ill-defined? What was it that just didn't work? I'm not familiar with the specifics of HeroQuest; how do its differences help? Would BRP work better for, say, more pulpish heroes like The Spider, The Shadow, The Avenger,The Green Hornet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpgstarwizard Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 Well done! But BRp does have similiar issues that Champs does. But wait no M&M or V&V, LOL. In Marvel, havent seen 4c Yet, you are correct, but it is a totally different system. And the flavor is different. If rl quits kicking my rear, I will do this for d6 and V&V. even Gurps. And we can do a real comparison, lol. The thing is though in BRP and Champs YOU can evolve the character, in Marvel and V&V, and GH iirc the rolls lock you in and out to a solid block, so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 Honestly, I've never found a Supers system that handled more than mid level well. All handle Batman, Captain America, Green Hornet, Green Arrow, etc well. I was no more fond of how GURPS or Champions scaled than Superworld. That being said, you CAN run higher level with BRP. It does take some creativity and rules lawyering on the part of both players and GMs though. Pick up the Superworld and Superworld Companion PDFs and take a look. But, as Simon stated above, Heroquest would be a much much much better fit for any Supers game above street level. And, FWIW, I'd through SotC out there! SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 For superheroic play, did you find BRP too lethal? Too cumbersome? The powers too limited or ill-defined? What was it that just didn't work? I'm not familiar with the specifics of HeroQuest; how do its differences help? Would BRP work better for, say, more pulpish heroes like The Spider, The Shadow, The Avenger,The Green Hornet? BRP is very lethal for superhero play unless you institute some sort of survival mechanism... Perhaps 0 HP being unconscious rather than dead, with perhaps a 24 hr recovery period back to full HP. Powers in BRP look ok... Superworld had holes that you could easily climb thru to create thousand point characters for 100 points. [cliff-notes] HeroQuest is more abstract. You have frameworks called Keywords that give you certain abilities, these being defined by you either by describing your character before hand. Example: CEO of a world renowned military contractor and avid gadgeteer. That sentence could give you any number of abilities, such as Military or Political contacts, wealth, the ability to build what you need... etc. HQ also handles ever increasing skills better with the concept of Masteries. The game is d20 based, but once your skill goes to 21, you have gained a Mastery. Your "Skill" resets to 1, but the mastery gives you the ability to bump the results: Fumble to Failure, Failure to Success, Success to Critical, etc. If your skill increases another 20, you Gain a second Mastery, and can bump the result two steps. Opposing masteries cancel out. [/cliff-notes] SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seneschal Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 This character was inspired by a couple discussion threads at rpg.net. Dynamo Duck for BRP Dirk McQuacken was an honest cop, incorruptible – which is why Boss Pharos ordered his thugs to gun the patrolman down on the streets of New Sartaria. The dying avian dragged his body to the steps of a nearby street clinic. Dr.Earnst Mauss, realizing McQuacken’s fellow officers were as likely to finish him off as help, quickly carried him inside and treated him in a back room rather than having him transported to City Hospital. Dr. Mauss was able to remove the bullets and staunch the bleeding but feared the duck did not have the strength to recover. He injected McQuacken with an experimental vitamin compound and prayed for the best. The chemical succeeded far beyond Mauss’ expectations. Early the next morning he found McQuacken gone and a hastily scribbled thank-you note promising that the patrolman would reward his kindness as soon as he was able. His patient’s disappearance was just as well. When suspicious policemen invaded the Mauss clinic shortly thereafter, they found no evidence that McQuacken had been there. The New Sartaria Police Department listed Dirk McQuacken as missing, presumed dead. Eighteen months later, a feathered whirlwind slammed into the city’s criminal community. Terrified mobsters reported their barely seen nemesis was almost impossible to shoot, didn’t die when it was hit, and bounced off walls and pavement like a toy rubber ball. Gang members attempting to collect “protection” money from small businesses, including the Mauss clinic, were severely beaten and driven off. Crooked officials were publically exposed. Honest officials and city employees were encouraged. Dirty cops became afraid to leave the safety of their precinct stations. The New Sartaria Beacon called this phenomenon the Dynamo Duck. In addition to healing Dirk McQuacken’s wounds, the vitamin compound enhanced his strength and stamina to the maximum for his species. It boosted his reflexes and physical vitality to unprecedented levels, and enabled his body to repair itself at a greatly accelerated rate. McQuacken must have undergone intense hand-to-hand combat training during his absence, since he now exhibits moves never taught by the Police Academy. STR 13 CON 18 SIZ 8 INT 11 POW 12 DEX 10 APP 3 Move: 6 Hit Points: 13 Damage Bonus: +0 Armor: 3 points (Kinetic, Heat, Electric) Attacks: Bolas 60%, 1D4+1/2db or Entangle; Brawl 60%, 1d3+4; Grapple 55%, 1D3+db; Pistol 55%, 1D6 Skills: Dodge 55%; Drive (Motorcycle) 45%; Hide 55%; Jump 55%; Knowledge (Law) 55%; Language (Duck) 55%; Language (English) 55%; Listen 55%; Persuade 31%; Research 60%; Sleight of Hand 45%; Spot 55%; Stealth 55%; Technical (Computer Use) 36%; Throw 60% Powers: Armor (Kinetic, Electric, Heat, 3 points each) – 9; Defense (-35% vs. All Attacks) – 7; Extra Energy (+30 Power Points, Total 42) – 3; Leap (+10 Meters Horizontal, +5 Meters Vertical, Total ?) – 5; Regeneration (3 Hit Points per Combat Round, Costs 3 Power Points) – 9; Super Characteristics (+2 Strength, +1 Constitution) – 3; Unarmed Combat (+4 Damage to Brawl, +4 AP to Unarmed Parry, -10% vs. Attacker’s Chance to Hit, +10% to Dynamo Duck’s Chance to Hit) – 40 Failings: None Notes: McQuacken’s base characteristics were randomly rolled per the Duck template in Basic Creatures. His stats provided 76 power points, his INT 110 personal skill points. I envisioned him as a sort of (original) Blue Beetle, Captain America mash-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 For superheroic play, did you find BRP too lethal? Too cumbersome? The powers too limited or ill-defined? What was it that just didn't work? I'm not familiar with the specifics of HeroQuest; how do its differences help? It has been a long while since I played Superworld (16 years), but from memory I found the character generation very clunky. Having power levels didn't seem to work for me, for some reason. Also, a powerful psionic character could always beat a non-psionic character, which didn't seem right. Very strong characters were almost unbeatable in hand to hand combat as they dealt out so much damage. As a fan of Hit Locations, I soon realised that they don't work in a Supers game, but neither does wound attrition, i.e. general hit points. In a Superhero comic, someone is pushed through a wall and gets up, in Superworld they generally didn't. Everyone took loads of armour as a standard thing, no matter who they were. The powers were very specific and weren't very adaptable, in my opinion. It just wasn't very satisfactory, and I was very, very disappointed as I really wanted a BRP/RQ style Supers game. HeroQuest, however, worked brilliantly. You designed your characters by saying what they could do, then allocated numbers to them. In use, you described what you were doing and the opponent described how they would defend. It is very visual, very comicy. I just found it perfectly suited to a Supers game. Of course, I'd use a very cut down version of HeroQuest I, as fixed Target Numbers work extremely well for Supers (Want to lift an elephant? Here's your target Number, now try your best.) Would BRP work better for, say, more pulpish heroes like The Spider, The Shadow, The Avenger,The Green Hornet? Possibly, but you shouldn't assume that all combat is lethal. Fisticuffs and brawling should be non-lethal. Hero Points, or fate Points, should be liberally used. Treat Powers as guidelines not as absolutes. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 (edited) It has been a long while since I played Superworld (16 years), but from memory I found the character generation very clunky. Having power levels didn't seem to work for me, for some reason. Also, a powerful psionic character could always beat a non-psionic character, which didn't seem right. Very strong characters were almost unbeatable in hand to hand combat as they dealt out so much damage. As a fan of Hit Locations, I soon realised that they don't work in a Supers game, but neither does wound attrition, i.e. general hit points. In a Superhero comic, someone is pushed through a wall and gets up, in Superworld they generally didn't. Everyone took loads of armour as a standard thing, no matter who they were. The powers were very specific and weren't very adaptable, in my opinion. It just wasn't very satisfactory, and I was very, very disappointed as I really wanted a BRP/RQ style Supers game. Character generation was somewhat clunky, but then so was Champions (at least to me). Powers were unbalanced, though I think your issue with armor is somewhat odd as that can be the reason they can survive being thrown thru a wall. There were other damage soak options as well. Hit locations?! I think they were an option, certainly not the core. They CAN work in a supers game, but then you need to be ultra detailed with how power projections work, etc. A street level game (Batman, Green Arrow, early X-Men) they will work. HeroQuest, however, worked brilliantly. You designed your characters by saying what they could do, then allocated numbers to them. In use, you described what you were doing and the opponent described how they would defend. It is very visual, very comicy. I just found it perfectly suited to a Supers game. Of course, I'd use a very cut down version of HeroQuest I, as fixed Target Numbers work extremely well for Supers (Want to lift an elephant? Here's your target Number, now try your best.) This is probably the best option as it would seem to work for the widest power ranges. ... Fisticuffs and brawling should be non-lethal... Honestly, the more I play, the more I think this should be the norm, and not just with fisticuffs and brawling, but perhaps with some weapons, save on a critical. And not just in a supers campaign. While a person CAN be killed by a few of punches to the head, the vast majority never suffer more than bruises or a broken nose. SDLeary Edited September 25, 2011 by SDLeary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 At the end of the day, the mantra is always the same: you can play your supers game with BRP (although I would try and replace armour with some sort of SW-style toughness), but with HeroQuest available, there are few (er, no...) things that BRP does better in a supers game. BRP can be a good option for a Victorian era superhero game in the mood of the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Ooops - as a matter of fact, there is already such a monograph. Not a surprise, huh? Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Yeah, it is like fitting a sqaure peg into a round hole. With enough effort and a few tools it can be done, but it usually isn't worth it. Usually one is better off just using an RPG that was designed for Supers rather than one that really wasn't. BRP inherient lethaity means that anything that aGm fails to account for can catch a character undefended. To really make a superhoero game out of BRP, a Gm would have to address quite a few issues. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rpgstarwizard Posted October 1, 2011 Share Posted October 1, 2011 Sorry been away, real life. Since I have been gaming ths game a long while and with various players. I have to say it does work. Alot of my players were interested with the example of the conversions,many felt there was some cherry picking.. For our group, as in RQ, every attack has a parry dodge etc. Many of the players have healing , and lotsa of extra hit points. So this is what my players say. They like the fact they can parry etc, unlike the wargame style games like dnd and hero system where every thing is calculated in. Many like the game as it has a more free style. But since so many seem to have such a... is limited a right way to express it, I guess trying to defend or explain the system is a waste of time. It could be lethal as a game and we have dickered around using the hero system of hits, but usually converted back. Beinga gaming trollop and having gamed most of the systems till recently, (last I played was M&M, started with Champions and V&V). I still think this system is comparable to any other. It has it quirks and flaws, but any issue is whata GM is about . Peace out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I doubt anyone here wished to bash at BRP. We are just not eager to try it with supers, but it _can_ work, indeed! Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Yeah. BRP is a good game system. It is just that it isn't the best fit for Supers. RQ (and, by extension, most BRP games) was written to be more gritty and realistic than most fantasy games, and this emphasis is the exact opposite of what a Supers game ususally needs. Big differences in power level between characters is hard to compensate for. In the comics somebody like Batman or Daredevil can go a few rounds with a super strong villain. In BRP, if the villain connects just once, the damage can easily kill off the hero. And once is usually enough to detail a campaign. The Superworld Boxed Set, did address most of the pitfalls of using BRP for Supers, and I'd recommended it for anyone who wants to run a Supers game using BRP. In fact, I'd suggest using Superworld as the default system, instead of BRP, and possibly porting over some BRP stuff into Superworld. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silent_bob Posted October 5, 2011 Share Posted October 5, 2011 Waaaaay back, during the first frenzy of Big Gold Book excitement, there were at least two superhero monographs proposed. Anything ever come of them? So far, we've had Dragon Lines published for kung fu butt-kicking but no four-color spandex action. Is it that BRP-ers just aren't into comics? Or have they decided that their favorite system isn't the best to depict supers? Look at the City of Heros BRP Quick Play Rules which are available at the following link: http://basicroleplaying.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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