Humakti "double damage" v weapons

[Shiningbrow]

So, Gift #10 says, "Bless a specific weapon to do double damage (once armor is penetrated)."

Does this include against weapons or shields? (and, is suppose I should add, against spirits when hitting their MPs?)

[Scotty]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:51 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So, Gift #10 says, "Bless a specific weapon to do double damage (once armor is penetrated)."

Does this include against weapons or shields? (and, is suppose I should add, against spirits when hitting their MPs?)

Yes. Note that this is a powerful gift and require three geases (one of only three). 

added to q&a: 7.3.2 10 Bless a specific weapon to do double damage…

As usual GMs are welcome to interpret the rules as they wish in their own games.

Edited February 22 by Scotty
Clarification

[Runeblogger]

I would have said no, since the parrying shield or weapon is acting as armor. 😳

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

I would have said no, since the parrying shield or weapon is acting as armor. 😳

I would have said no too, but for another reason: I imagine that Death power acts against life power. And none of shield weapon and even spirits are alive (in my understanding of live)

But if Death acts against anything, your armor point is not an issue: the armor effect of the shield and weapon applies as usual then the damage (against the parrying weapon) is doubled as any damage from a blessing weapon.

 

I would prefer only apply on living (well if you bargain well, I accept spirits 😛 ) but not against metal or dead wood

Is there a "mythic" reason or is it just to make it simple ?

Edited February 19 by French Desperate WindChild

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Is there a “mythic” reason … ?

Humakt is an ambitious death god with an animist outlook, and he means to kill everything — weapons, armour, zombies, rocks, the air, and all the other things we wouldn’t normally think of as alive. Here is a cigarette paper; try to slide it between Humakt and the other Lords of Terror.

[PhilHibbs]

I can see both sides of this, I’m going to come down on the “yes” side because it’s simpler.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

If the sword does double damage against a wooden shield, it would also do double damage against a tree.

is there a famous cult of Humakti lumberjacks?  NO.  Therefore the sword does not do extra damage vs  shields or swords...

 

[Shiningbrow]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

is there a famous cult of Humakti lumberjacks? 

Sarzdorf trolls? 😁

[David Scott]

6 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If the sword does double damage against a wooden shield, it would also do double damage against a tree.

is there a famous cult of Humakti lumberjacks?  NO.  Therefore the sword does not do extra damage vs  shields or swords...

 

[Geoff R Evil]

I am on the NO side, it’s clear the doubling of damage occurs once you have hit flesh. Probably as others say, related to death power once it touches a live thing…or an unliving thing. Once you start doubling the damage in order to by pass defensive measures where do you start and stop…too complex. Plus it’s very overpowered. At least doubling only once all defensive measures have been taken into account gives a chance of survival. Otherwise it becomes a weapon and shield matchmaking skill not a death rune benefit.

[Squaredeal Sten]

The original laconic " yes" answer appears to be ambiguous.

I take it as yes, it does apply: it does double damage after armor is penetrated.  Since a person's armor is not yet penetrated when the shield is hit, there is no double damage then.  Since no armor is penetrated when a weapon parries, there is no double damage then either.  You have to get past the parry, past the armor, and then whatever damage is left will be doubled.

So IMG if stacked Humakt sword magic and normal weapon damage would give 20 points of damage. and it gets past the medium  shield parry (12 points) and through bronze armor with 1 pt padding (7 points) the remaining 1 point is doubled to 2 points of damage.

 

 

 

 

 

[PhilHibbs]

14 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

I am on the NO side, it’s clear the doubling of damage occurs once you have hit flesh. Probably as others say, related to death power once it touches a live thing…or an unliving thing. Once you start doubling the damage in order to by pass defensive measures where do you start and stop…too complex.

I don't see the complexity. After AP are deducted, you double the damage that isn't blocked by armour. Contact with life force is not necessary, because the doubling happens before matching it against Ward Against Weapons. At least, that's my interpretation, I guess you could match the un-doubled damage against it.

[PhilHibbs]

I suppose one complication is this:

Critical Attack vs Normal Parry

Defender’s parrying
weapon HP reduced
by the damage rolled.
Any excess damage
goes to adjacent hit
location, with no armor
protection.

How much damage does the parrying weapon take? Is the damage doubled?

A literal reading of the rules would be "yes", since there are no AP involved. I think that this is the heart of the objection, that a crit-versus-parry becomes a shield auto-destroyer.

Edited February 20 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

Special Attack vs Normal Parry

Defender’s parrying
weapon takes damage
over its HP, with same
amount of damage
going to adjacent hit
location.

Right, this is where the complexity really kicks in.

Here we have weapon damage being done to the shield, then going on to the arm. But the arm might have AP, so you can't double the weapon damage for the purposes of damaging the shield, because it still hasn't hit the AP.

Since the damage is applied to both the shield and the arm separately, I suppose you could treat the two sets of damage independently:

Weapon damage: 20
Shield HP: 12
Arm AP: 7

Shield HP reduces the 20 down to 8

Shield takes 8x2=16 and breaks

Arm takes 8-7=1x2=2

Edited February 20 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

9 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Special Attack vs Normal Parry

Defender’s parrying
weapon takes damage
over its HP, with same
amount of damage
going to adjacent hit
location.

Right, this is where the complexity really kicks in.

Here we have weapon damage being done to the shield, then going on to the arm. But the arm might have AP, so you can't double the weapon damage for the purposes of damaging the shield, because it still hasn't hit the AP.

Since the damage is applied to both the shield and the arm separately, I suppose you could treat the two sets of damage independently:

Weapon damage: 20
Shield HP: 12
Arm AP: 7

Shield HP reduces the 20 down to 8

Shield takes 8x2=16 and breaks

Arm takes 8-7=1x2=2

I'm glad I'm not programming a VTT to figure in all this!

[Shiningbrow]

54 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Special Attack vs Normal Parry

Defender’s parrying
weapon takes damage
over its HP, with same
amount of damage
going to adjacent hit
location.

Right, this is where the complexity really kicks in.

Here we have weapon damage being done to the shield, then going on to the arm. But the arm might have AP, so you can't double the weapon damage for the purposes of damaging the shield, because it still hasn't hit the AP.

Since the damage is applied to both the shield and the arm separately, I suppose you could treat the two sets of damage independently:

Weapon damage: 20
Shield HP: 12
Arm AP: 7

Shield HP reduces the 20 down to 8

Shield takes 8x2=16 and breaks

Arm takes 8-7=1x2=2

This is the rule that brought it to my attention - the party Humakti challenged the NPC leader to a 1 on 1 duel (but, I had the Humakti #2 take the duel, as she has that geas (never refuse a 1-1 challenge) - and it avoids potential blood feuds).

PC's second round hit was crit, vs her parry (with sword, no less!)

Broadsword blessed with double damage after armour... (thus, 18pts damage - max slashing damage)

I ruled that the sword took 12 points*, then I decided that the parry deflected the blade, so rolled a hit location (doesn't really make sense for this to automatically be the arm), which was abdomen, with 3 points of cuirbuilli - and thus, 3 points to the guts - doubled to 6 points... and she's down! (better than taking all 18 I suppose). And, her sword should be shattered.

However.... for  normal attack, one needs to overcome the HP of a weapon before it's allowed to be damaged (usually for 1 point) - which sounds a LOT like AP! Which would then mean - a weapon and shield has AP equal to HP... And this, I think, makes sense.

 

Alternatively - if the sword has AP equal to HP, then any blow would need to overcome the 12 AP, and then any excess could be doubled to wipe out the sword's HP (which is what you've calculated).

With Scotty's 'yes', it would mean that a parrying broadsword would take off 6 of the 18 damage - because it would be doubled to 12 - destroying the sword.... leaving 12 points to hit the hit location (in this case, with 3 points of armour) - and thus, the remaining 9 points would be doubled.

 

Part of the problem is that weapons and shields don't officially have AP (anymore).

 

(*I think I misunderstood the rules here).

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I ruled that the sword took 12 points*

I think you may have misunderstood the rule, yes. IMO, the sword in this case blocks 12 damage but takes 6 (the excess) reducing its HP to 6.

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

then I decided that the parry deflected the blade, so rolled a hit location (doesn't really make sense for this to automatically be the arm).

Yes, I’d rule that too. However in the case of shields it does make sense that the location hit is always the arm holding the shield. I know, shields can also deflect as well as absorb blows, but this makes parrying with shields a tad better than parrying with another weapon, as parrying with a weapon might mean you get hit on the head anyway. 🙂

 

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

which was abdomen, with 3 points of cuirbuilli - and thus, 3 points to the guts - doubled to 6 points... and she's down! (better than taking all 18 I suppose). And, her sword should be shattered.

Exactly. Of course it is better than taking all 18! But the sword is only down to 6HP.

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Part of the problem is that weapons and shields don't officially have AP (anymore).

Well, they changed the name from RQ3’s AP to HP, but they work mostly like they did in RQ3.

[Geoff R Evil]

Lot of overthinking here. If you go with the no. Then ALL existing crit, special and weapon damage rolls work exactly as they all have. Only once damage is done is the doubling effect of the Humakti bonus added on. Very simple…and in line with the spirit of the stated intent of the gift in my opinion. YGMV

[Akhôrahil]

I would have had it double the damage it inflicts on a weapon, the same way it doubles the damage it inflicts on a person.

This, of course, is not the same thing as doubling the initial damage rolled.

[Shiningbrow]

10 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Lot of overthinking here. If you go with the no. Then ALL existing crit, special and weapon damage rolls work exactly as they all have. Only once damage is done is the doubling effect of the Humakti bonus added on. Very simple…and in line with the spirit of the stated intent of the gift in my opinion. YGMV

Spirits and their magic points??

[PhilHibbs]

What about damage to an attacking weapon on a really good parry?

Failed Attack vs Special Parry

Defender rolls
parrying weapon’s
special damage.
Attacking weapon’s
HP reduced by any
damage over its
current HP.

Should a blessed parrying weapon do extra damage?

What if you specifically attack their weapon to destroy it? Is that a "Non-Humakti" thing to do, and does it make a difference if the wielder is illuminated?

As you might read from my tone, my instincts are to allow it but I do recognize the complication.

[PhilHibbs]

The "Why can Death do this" reasoning is a bit of a rabbit hole, leading to "Why should Truesword damage shields" etcetera. But just because something can be forced into an absurd-looking corner, doesn't mean it is inherently absurd.

Part of me is comfortable with the how-it-works being a little funky and open to interpretation, essentially the whim-of-the-GM, but that also opens the door to munchkin bickering and drama.

Edited February 21 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

7 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Should a blessed parrying weapon do extra damage?

I think so. The more straightforward and systematized the rules are, the easier they are to keep track of.

[Soccercalle]

I would say no. It is an extremely powerful gift as it is.

[Squaredeal Sten]

My own interpretation is that when the edge touches skin, the remaining damage is doubled.  Simple.