Observations of the Lunar Way Cults.

[glarkhag]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

How are people going to measure this?  Soul Sight and Second Sight do not have this ability while the sorcerous spell Reveal Rune *might* depending on how strong the spell is.  So a Lhankoring who knows that particular spell might be aware of individual runic strengths but the general distribution of Moon Rune affinity within the population is largely a hidden variable.

Your question is essentially the same as mine. Mine is can people measure it? I assumed they could.

Not accurately.

The Rune Inspectors won't be going round with e-meters measuring your runic affinity to two decimal places.

However, runes are associated with material things like weapons, animals and colours.

So, I thought people would "see" runic affinity through behavioural manifestations.

I have always taken it that affinity with a rune brings with it an affinity with the associated things. If you have strong affinity with moon you are drawn to wear more red, you produce artwork with a relative red presence, you are attracted to red things. You like the curve of a sabre over a broadsword. You appear mystically philosophical. That's not to say it's that black and white. Personality is way more complex than a spectrum of runic affinity interactions. But I figured someone with moderate to strong affinity with the moon would have moderate to strong affinity with the colour red. And this would be visible.

I thought runic affinity would show based on the fact that it affects personality and if it shows then it has a presence.

And where that thought takes me is what would Moon rune affinity look like  - in game mechanics terms - before the apotheosis of The Red Goddess, and again after she falls?

What would be the associated colour? Weapons? Personality? Are the published associations core moon runic associations or corruptions by The Red Goddess' ownership of the rune?

And if it changes what happens to those people with the affinity at the moment it changes? Did an affinity with the colour red bleed into/out of their lives? Does the physical presence of manufactured red things increase/diminish in society at these junctures? 

And ultimately I get to the question: if it shows like this how would cultures view this? Would they trust that person who often wears red if red is intrinsically and universally linked in real terms with The Red Goddess?

[metcalph]

18 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Your question is essentially the same as mine. Mine is can people measure it? I assumed they could.

Not accurately.

My position is not even remotely.  They can only ascertain *expressed* runic affinities - those aligned with a worshipped God.  Thus people can know whether a Worshipper of Orlanth is strong in Storm and Movement.  They cannot ascertain one's latent runic affinities easily.  Is a person's anger issues due to Fire?   Darkness?  Disorder?  Chaos?  The idea that one could ascertain latent affinities by looking at whether they like fighting with spears or clubs is kinda silly IMO.

The only good indicator that one has a strong Moon affinity is by looking at whether they worship a Lunar cult.

[glarkhag]

21 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My position is not even remotely.  They can only ascertain *expressed* runic affinities - those aligned with a worshipped God.  Thus people can know whether a Worshipper of Orlanth is strong in Storm and Movement.  They cannot ascertain one's latent runic affinities easily.  Is a person's anger issues due to Fire?   Darkness?  Disorder?  Chaos?  The idea that one could ascertain latent affinities by looking at whether they like fighting with spears or clubs is kinda silly IMO.

The only good indicator that one has a strong Moon affinity is by looking at whether they worship a Lunar cult.

So, are you suggesting that the associations listed are not intrinsic to the rune? That red is adopted as the colour for the moon by the cults and by people arbitrarily?

[Ynneadwraith]

5 hours ago, glarkhag said:

So, are you suggesting that the associations listed are not intrinsic to the rune? That red is adopted as the colour for the moon by the cults and by people arbitrarily?

That's how I'd interpret it certainly. Red is only the colour of the latest Moon to take its place in the pantheon. There's Anilla the Blue Moon, a pending White Moon, and maybe even a long-gone Black Moon (and who knows what other moons were killed in prehistory).

Meanwhile there are other red gods that are not Lunar, such as Shargash.

The mysticism part I'd be happy with, as well as potentially some form of cyclical nature (perhaps in the early expressions of their magic not matching the traditional seasons). Though in reality I see it a bit like those hippy dippy spiritual folks who will confidently state that you're a Scorpio based on hearing barely two anecdotes about you. The whole process of gaining your runic affinities is poorly understood in-universe, and subject to a lot of superstition.

Is it that a child is rushing around wildly because they are innately strong in the Movement rune, or does being encouraged to rush around wildly develop affinity with the Movement rune? A mix of both? Neither? Who knows*.

*And this is good, because it leaves doors open for players and characters to develop freely - plugging in a Just So explanation as to why after the actual decision is made

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, glarkhag said:

So, are you suggesting that the associations listed are not intrinsic to the rune? That red is adopted as the colour for the moon by the cults and by people arbitrarily?

AS you say, it is not white or black

Probably , those who are strong in the moon rune may have some tendency to curved weapon, to red color, etc... But that doesn't mean that those who like curved weapon, red color, etc... are  influenced by the moon rune.

For example Vingan dye their hair red. Does that mean that Vingan are followers of the red moon ? Or are all the Vingan have a strong affinity with the moon rune ?

Same for a curved blade, What about a very strong   holy Orlanthi war dancer who get an additional arm by heroquesting - temporary or always -  (after all Orlanth has 4 if I recall correctly, so even it is not a chaotic form) and uses 3 curved weapons in his fight to use the power of movement at a extraordinary level.

What about a poet who loves and is inspired by the waves sounds and use  curved weapons because it reminds the sea.

What about a lodrili who wears red because it is one of the color of the lovely magma ?

 

Yes, probably the lunar cults choose the red color arbitrarily. Your main goddess is red (or at least its body the moon) so you will choose the red as main color.

Are the curved weapons used by lunars once they were lunars, or had their ancestors already used it before, influenced, for example by the pentan riders (I'm not sure but it seems that curved weapons are more effective than straight weapons on a horse ?) Just a cultural transfer ?

It doesn't seem to me that using /wearing the red improves the capacity of runic spells for example.

Some orlanthi rebels would decide(more an arbitrarily decision than "their own" runes influence) to never wear red or even cur(s/v)ed weapons because that reminds them their lunar ennemies

 

Of course if you choose to wear the runes (visual depiction of) of a cult, you will probably be considered of member of that cult (if your audience recognizes it). 

But I don't think that just using a part of what is described as runic affinity (color, weapon, skill, etc..) means you are necessarily influenced by said rune ("in reality" or  being considered by your neighbours)

 

Note that few years ago, I would have said that wearing a curved weapon would be a "proof" of lunar friendship (so not really a runic tendency but more a politic choice) but iirc, their was the answer in this forum that, after all, people use weapons they can obtain, and if your a new fighter without money... well if you get a curved weapon on the battle field... use it and kill lunars !

[glarkhag]

2 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

That's how I'd interpret it certainly. Red is only the colour of the latest Moon to take its place in the pantheon. There's Anilla the Blue Moon, a pending White Moon, and maybe even a long-gone Black Moon (and who knows what other moons were killed in prehistory).

Meanwhile there are other red gods that are not Lunar, such as Shargash.

The mysticism part I'd be happy with, as well as potentially some form of cyclical nature (perhaps in the early expressions of their magic not matching the traditional seasons). Though in reality I see it a bit like those hippy dippy spiritual folks who will confidently state that you're a Scorpio based on hearing barely two anecdotes about you. The whole process of gaining your runic affinities is poorly understood in-universe, and subject to a lot of superstition.

Is it that a child is rushing around wildly because they are innately strong in the Movement rune, or does being encouraged to rush around wildly develop affinity with the Movement rune? A mix of both? Neither? Who knows*.

*And this is good, because it leaves doors open for players and characters to develop freely - plugging in a Just So explanation as to why after the actual decision is made

I think this might be a red herring. Shargash's principle element is Fire/Sky so the associated colour would be Yellow.  Orlanth is blue in the pictures but the colour associated with Air is Orange...

I don't appear to be making my point very clearly.

There are game mechanics that directly link some of the associations with the rune. Weapons listed: these can be inspired. So there is some sort of metaphysical association/link/ connection between Moon and curved weapons.

Personality is listed: character personality will skew towards this if its a primary affinity. So again there is a direct interaction between the rune and personality.

Despite no direct mechanics I have assumed that the other listed associations are similarly actually linked in a real sense otherwise why not make those references in the cults section rather than the rune section of the rules?

E.g. Colour: No direct reference that I can find that establishes whether this colour association is metaphysical or not. Is the design intention that this is a middle world conceit or a universal truth? Are those strong in the force moon drawn/attacted to/in some way influenced towards the colour red?  The importance of this is in the question: has the rune been affected by The Red Goddess' ownership of it? And that extends beyond just the colour.  For me the implications of this are profound. Perhaps I am looking for profundity where there is none.

I'm looking for the cause and effect here. It's no coincidence surely that the crescent horned sables are the ones who aligned with the lunars. There must be some sort of runic influence (pre-disposition) at work there. AFAIK they were not moon cultists before, so is it because the moon rune has different associations now and they had a new-found affinity - or again is that just a conceit - or were they always moon cultists?

If the Red Goddess has changed the rune through her ownership then what does this mean for an individual who has affinity with it?

 

[Ynneadwraith]

8 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

There must be some sort of runic influence (pre-disposition) at work there.

Must there be? Could it not be that the Lunar missionaries came upon a group of Sable-riders and said 'Behold! You are the chosen of the Lunar Goddess! See, she has already chosen you by the shape of your horns, even though you didn't know it already'.

It is Glorantha of course, so the answer to this question could well be 'yes'.

10 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

The importance of this is in the question: has the rune been affected by The Red Goddess' ownership of it?

Now this is an idea I like.

There's precedent too, with the Storm of Orlanth being a very different thing to the storm of his father...

[glarkhag]

4 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

For example Vingan dye their hair red. Does that mean that Vingan are followers of the red moon ? Or are all the Vingan have a strong affinity with the moon rune ?

I agree that it cannot be that only people with an elemental affinity exclusively show preferences for the associated things. But that is not to say that the reverse is not true.

I did wonder about the Vingans though.  Red Goddess subverting Orlanth with femininity... ? 😄

 

 

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

I'm looking for the cause and effect here. It's no coincidence surely that the crescent horned sables are the ones who aligned with the lunars. There must be some sort of runic influence (pre-disposition) at work there. AFAIK they were not moon cultists before, so is it because the moon rune has different associations now and they had a new-found affinity - or again is that just a conceit - or were they always moon cultists?

The Sable Riders are descendants of the Twin Stars, two Southpath planets that orbit one another and create the impression of crescents as one eclipses the other.  Those of the Hungry Plateau recognized a Lunar connecition only when the Jannisor rebellion was about to storm the Red Moon across the Silver Bridge IIRC.

There were other moons. Annilla is the best known (also by other names or in other incarnations, such as Croesia or Veldara). There were earlier Lunar empires - those of the Artmali.

IMG the Lunar Way covers the followers of the Red Moon rather than the entirety of the Moon Rune. Little seen here will be fully relevant to the Artmali of Fonrit. The Red Goddess and her avatar Jar-eel claim to include those other bits, too (and they might) but the majority of the (new, born-in-Time) deities in the Lunar Way only have magical ties to the Red Moon or bits of its pre-incarnations. Jakaleel may be an exception there.

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, glarkhag said:

That red is adopted as the colour for the moon by the cults and by people arbitrarily?

That's definitely my interpretation. 

32 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

Despite no direct mechanics I have assumed that the other listed associations are similarly actually linked in a real sense otherwise why not make those references in the cults section rather than the rune section of the rules?

I'd describe it as when an individual is inspired by a Rune, then the stronger associations of that Rune with various perceptions, skills, and weapons come into play. 

Now how the individual invokes or is inspired is up to the individual IMO. In game, I've typically had characters inspired primarily by those Runes of their cult - i.e. Yarandros prays to Humakt to lend him the power of Death. 

But, it does not have to be such. Araktos the Sage might contemplate the poems of Pelagos Windspeaker to be inspired by the Air Rune (even though Araktos is not in an Air Rune cult) to hear the sounds of the world around. Erava the Dancer pauses and envisions the repeating sequence of the Dance of the Spheres and is consequently inspired by the Moon Rune as she prepares to begin a ceremony.

[David Scott]

8 hours ago, glarkhag said:

That red is adopted as the colour for the moon by the cults and by people arbitrarily?

Don't forget the Colors entry in the Prosopaedia 24.

[glarkhag]

4 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Don't forget the Colors entry in the Prosopaedia 24.

Nice one, thanks. That explains a lot! 

[glarkhag]

50 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Sable Riders are descendants of the Twin Stars, two Southpath planets that orbit one another and create the impression of crescents as one eclipses the other.  Those of the Hungry Plateau recognized a Lunar connecition only when the Jannisor rebellion was about to storm the Red Moon across the Silver Bridge IIRC

IMG the Lunar Way covers the followers of the Red Moon rather than the entirety of the Moon Rune. 

Yes, that's a good shout.

I think the presence of past and future moons is part of where I was trying to get to.

The Sourcebook says that the present owner of the Moon Rune is The Red Goddess (previous unknown). Although someone must know 😉 

I work on the basis that  "ownership" doesn't mean exclusive use of it though. 

[Kloster]

2 hours ago, glarkhag said:

I work on the basis that  "ownership" doesn't mean exclusive use of it though. 

Yes, as Humakt is obviously not the sole user of Death.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Real humans have personality traits such as favorite colors.  Real humans do not have runes.

Therefore, it is perfectly possible, even likely, that Gloranthan humans have favorite colors with zero relation to their runes.

"I will choose a path that's clear, I will choose Freewill"

[glarkhag]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Real humans have personality traits such as favorite colors.  Real humans do not have runes.

Prove it. 😜

[davecake]

On 5/26/2024 at 3:57 PM, glarkhag said:

For me, the key part is that these act as a one-time bonus to the Illumination skill. Base skill is Moon Rune Affinity divided by 5. If your Moon Rune Affinity is 0 (as most Orlanthi are likely to have) then your base illumination skill is 00.  You can't apply bonuses and modifiers to 00 skills. Therefore if your moon rune is 0 then you will only gain skill in Illumination if you learn it or solve riddles.

True (and actually what is observed - Illumination is a 0% skill until you experience something that opens you to Illumination). But once you experience a Riddle (or are opened to Illumination in other ways), it is no longer 0% and Magic bonus applies. 

[davecake]

17 hours ago, glarkhag said:

The Sourcebook says that the present owner of the Moon Rune is The Red Goddess (previous unknown). Although someone must know 😉 

The likely previous owner is Annilla. But she is also probably the someone who knows, and she very rarely tells. 

[davecake]

On 5/28/2024 at 1:07 PM, glarkhag said:

The Rune Inspectors won't be going round with e-meters measuring your runic affinity to two decimal places.

Though the Runic Scientologists would make an excellent God Learner (or wannabe GL) variant sect. 

[glarkhag]

1 minute ago, davecake said:

The likely previous owner is Annilla. But she is also probably the someone who knows, and she very rarely tells. 

Yes, agreed.

I had meant someone in the RW though,  unless it's being left deliberately "open" to allow us to find our own personal  Glorathan truth(s). 

[Ynneadwraith]

38 minutes ago, glarkhag said:

unless it's being left deliberately "open" to allow us to find our own personal  Glorathan truth(s). 

I suspect it's a Cow Tools moment...

[glarkhag]

Love it.

Like Tarantino and his orange balloon. 

But  I can definitely see the subconscious having a hand in writing and other art, which is perhaps more apparent to other people who are more sensitive to such than the artist. Some people do have a gift with reading people (masters of Insight (human) with a decent augmentation from the man rune).

But it's curious that it was a balloon of the Air rune colour floating on the wind in the film. 🤔

[Rob Darvall]

13 hours ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I suspect it's a Cow Tools moment...

The whole game is a Cow Tools moment. We're given just enough coherent information with fascinating dangly bits hanging off the sides to start us down rabbit holes of our own creation (Cf Mfbrandi's Yara Aranis thread).