RQ *implementation* but a Glorantha *question* ...

[g33k]

Ernalda is a bit light on "fighty" magic (in RQ).
I presume this will be true for most "Gloranthan" settings.

Nevertheless, I was looking at the possibilty of making an Ernaldan warrior, and considering how best to approach that.

And it suddenly struck me:  Summon Household Spirit.  This is a permanent spell (tho the Household needs to offer ongoing worship).
Because it needs to be cast on a "household" it is very-niche as a classical "adventurers" spell.
But the professional warrior?
The one serving in a "standing army," living in their home city?

Is there any reason whatsoever that virtually every city in Nochet doesn't mostly have houses protected this way??!?
Ernaldan warriors have been "buffing" friends & family homes for centuries.

More broadly than the RQ-specific SHS implementation, though:  Ernaldan "community" orientation in a city context (i.e. not many fields to bless) would seem to imply that this is a very Ernaldan thing to do, and could/should be implemented in all versions of Glorantha.

And it makes the idea of trying to militarily "capture" an Esrolian city a fewkin' terrifying prospect.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

Ernalda is a bit light on "fighty" magic (in RQ).

In RQG, they have access to Shield, Earth Shield, and Heal Body, which makes them effective defensive fighters.

[Squaredeal Sten]

Doing it just to show it can be done and to contradict stereotypes?  Well, you do you. But:

I'm pretty sure that making an Ernaldan first rank fighter is not maximizing a character's effectiveess, despite things like getting Shield and Impede Chaos and summoning large Earth elementals.

Think for a minute about choice of cult: The character is choosing an archetype to imitate.  Anyone doing character generation who hadn't grasped this point is likely not to have a fun experience.

Earth Shield and Bless Champion, plus healing magic, Impede Chaos and summoning large Earth elementals make her a formidable support character.  Strange stuff like Summon Snake Daughter, Catseye, and Mountain Leap can change the tactical situation.

And the birth-related and farming-related rune magic plus the cult skills like Insight(Human), can make her a very satisfying character if you are in a campaign that actually has the Adventurers living in Glorantha, rather than dungeon-bashing through Glorantha.

[Jens]

Agreed, Summon Household Guardian costing only a single RP which can easily be regained (even for 1 POW it would still be a bargain) means pretty much every household in an Ernaldan community would have one. Have any spare RPs before your seasonal holy day? Head out and bless a few homes. Although since only the caster can draw upon the MP of the spirit, it's still best to cast it on your own home- which would include roughly 70% of homes in Esrolia.

Summon Snake Daughter would similarly make Earth Temples nearly inviolable- since every Priestess would have more than the 4 RP required to cast that permanent spell, you could imagine that larger temples would have many Snake Daughters guarding it over time.

[Malin]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

Nevertheless, I was looking at the possibilty of making an Ernaldan warrior, and considering how best to approach that.

We have an Ernaldan fighter in one of the campaigns I am running, and that can work just fine. The thing is, Ernalda has great access to defensive magic and summoning magic, but not offensive rune magic. The character in question (a sartarite farmer under the last years of the Lunar occupation; he's a man but follows Ernalda, very family oriented) has great physical stats, so he is a capable fighter with weapons. His rune magic is not for causing harm but for preventing it. If he ever picks up some more offensive spirit magic he'll be even better, but so far they haven't had a chance (the campaign is currently in the first week after the Dragonrise, so a bit of chaos). He fulfills a similar role to the Yelmalio warrior in my other campaign, a defensive mainstay who is filled with useful tricks and very helpful to the team, but is not the main damage dealer.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, g33k said:

But the professional warrior?
The one serving in a "standing army," living in their home city?

I m not sure that a "professional warrior" should be ernaldan.

If an earth oriented cultist wants to join an army, I think  it would be a "gor" one (I m not talking about pc efficiency, more about  "why this cult in this profession")

After all Bab's roll is to protect Ernalda (not only but you may find people in this role)

 

Now, that doesn't mean Ernaldan warriors don't exist. I would more see them as Ernalda the protective mother (or Barntar the protective father) Someone who  has a "more earthly profession" but, for any reason (something happend when she was child, something happen few years ago , ...) fears more than usual  war /violence and decide to learn anything to be able to defend her family/friend/community as a complement to her profession. @Malin story is one of this view.

Not an avenger (--> Bab's) more someone who is looking for peace, dislike violence but "know" that violence is always an option and think she must be able to counter this option

 

Now, that doesn't contradict an ernaldan priest or great initiate in any "good" Nochet family casting summon household spirit.  I m not sure all families, but if you have any standing, you should show some wealth and power, and this kind of spirit is the proof of your power and the mean to protect your wealth.

 

 

 

[metcalph]

An Ernaldan Warrior would probably join a subcult.  The Husband Protectors have already been spoken for.  However in Esrolia, there are the Noble Brothers, any of which an Ernaldan could worship for weapon magic.  

• Deresagar, “son of Argan Argar,” ranks of
  spearmen, but especially trolls
•  Nolerianmar, “son of Elmal,” horsemen
•  Harasarl, Orlanthi-type warriors
• Helamakt, swordsmen
• Kalavan, “Veskarthan’s son,” with spears of flame
• Tenderos, the Copper Warrior
• Tersh, the Archer

This would be very unusual but that's never going to stop any PC.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

However in Esrolia, there are the Noble Brothers, any of which an Ernaldan could worship for weapon magic.  

And also Irillo, the Great Defender. He's the central leader of the militia, the Irillo Hundreds that are found across Esrolia.

[Squaredeal Sten]

6 hours ago, Malin said:

We have an Ernaldan fighter in one of the campaigns ..........The character in question (a sartarite farmer under the last years of the Lunar occupation; he's a man but follows Ernalda, very family oriented) has great physical stats,..... 

Then it would appear that In character generation, at least two people made a career-limiting decis9n for the character:  He won't be able to make Rune level unl4ess he gives birth to a healthy child.  This is certainly OK for a demonstration project, but in general people play with the expectation that the character can make rune level.

Edited August 2 by Squaredeal Sten
took time to look up in the Cults book

[Eff]

18 hours ago, g33k said:

Ernalda is a bit light on "fighty" magic (in RQ).
I presume this will be true for most "Gloranthan" settings.

Nevertheless, I was looking at the possibilty of making an Ernaldan warrior, and considering how best to approach that.

And it suddenly struck me:  Summon Household Spirit.  This is a permanent spell (tho the Household needs to offer ongoing worship).
Because it needs to be cast on a "household" it is very-niche as a classical "adventurers" spell.
But the professional warrior?
The one serving in a "standing army," living in their home city?

Is there any reason whatsoever that virtually every city in Nochet doesn't mostly have houses protected this way??!?
Ernaldan warriors have been "buffing" friends & family homes for centuries.

More broadly than the RQ-specific SHS implementation, though:  Ernaldan "community" orientation in a city context (i.e. not many fields to bless) would seem to imply that this is a very Ernaldan thing to do, and could/should be implemented in all versions of Glorantha.

And it makes the idea of trying to militarily "capture" an Esrolian city a fewkin' terrifying prospect.

Well, thinking about this in a relatively mechanistic way, this spirit is weaker than the median ones a shaman encounters through Spirit Contact. 2d6+6 POW, 3d6 CHA, only 1-3 pts of spirit magic, and only Ernalda cult-related spirit magic, "typically Heal or Demoralize". The Household Guardian also "manifests as a large snake and the spell ends if the snake is is killed", so it may be the case that the spell at most lasts for the natural life of the snake. As it is, though, the spell's most useful component is the ability of the caster to draw upon the guardian's MP while "within the precincts of the household". And there's no mechanism defined for handing this effect off to someone else, so the spell is most useful for the life of the initial caster and then you're left with a snake that can heal well enough to stop bleeding or possibly deter single attackers, but is unlikely to have any means of directly attacking someone beyond dubious physicality. So you could summon another one, and another... but eventually you're facing a substantial cost in worshiping all of them at once. 

Pragmatically, I would spin out the consequences of the spell as written as suggesting that the current "head of household" summons a guardian when she achieves that position, and that the old guardian and maybe the one before that might remain, and they mostly heal small cuts and try to stare down burglars or unwanted visitors. This perhaps makes sacking Gloranthan cities a bit different, since you'll want to break open each house in a large enough group to avoid being Demoralized out of looting. But at the same time, the average guardian will, on average, be able to Demoralize 3-4 average humans before running out of MP, so thinking in this mode, we're not looking at something which makes cities materially more difficult to take even without considering that societies in this context would likely develop magical attacks to degrade magical defenses- if all else fails, get another tent-group or two and threaten to burn the building down or smoke the people out unless they call off the guardian and cough up their valuables. 

Taking a broader view, but one still centered in RQG, the Ernalda cult magic has very little in the way of offensive magic beyond the expensive measure of summoning earth elementals. Even summoning a small elemental and commanding it will cost 3 RP minimum, without any additional points of Extension. Most of the cult's defensive magic is also fairly limited in applicability- Inviolable has a 3-meter range laid out in the spell description, which protects you from melee weapons but not someone throwing a rock. Bless Champion allows you to cast defensive spells at range on a specific target who's willing to have their mind modified by you to instill love for you. 

In that sense, Ernalda-as-written would not seem to be a gigantic factor in this domain- the cult spirits share the lack of offensive magic or simply as described as having X points of it without any details, and like all magic within RQG, the precise degree of defensive power is heavily conditioned on "how many rune points and rune spells does an average person have?" If the answer is "very few", then much of that defensive magic is unlikely to be present. If the answer is a more maximalist one, or one calculated from loose application of POW gain rules, then that defensive magic is much more likely to be present... but then we have to consider that the other side of the arms race will have been keeping pace as well. Dismiss Magic is a common runespell, after all. Pay your local shamans to gather spirits and release them to overwhelm the guardians and wards before you attack. Et cetera. 

But let's step back even further. If we take the specifics of the spells very loosely and assume Household Guardians are meant to be effective defenses and so on, one consequence that migbt emerge from it is that the relative position of a negotiated surrender would be stronger than it was in our history, because breaking through the accreted magical defenses would damage the city in an enduring way that would require great expense and labor or waiting for the hands of time to repair it. As such, to gain anything from the seizure of land, achieving victory without storming the local administrative center would be ideal. 

You could go further and have these defenses ebb in times of peace and them receive hasty sacrifices to reactivate them as war approaches, analogous to city walls... but what role would Ernalda be playing in this shaken-out approach? I think that at the most zoomed-out level we're just having to contemplate whether Ernalda is purely domestic-sphere or whether she acts outside of that realm, and then go and define things from there.

[Malin]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Then it would appear that In character generation, at least two people made a career-limiting decis9n for the character:  He won't be able to make Rune level unl4ess he gives birth to a healthy child.  This is certainly OK for a demonstration project, but in general people play with the expectation that the character can make rune level.

Oh, one of the player other characters is not an initiate in any cult from the start, this is not a group of people starting out with the intention to make it to rune level at all. That's really not what the campaign is about, so don't worry about him! And I'm not sure what you mean with a "demonstration project?" Anyway, if the thought bothers you, my post still stands if you change the pronouns in it to she/her, the point was that an Ernalda initiate can make a good fighter, the fact that it happens to be a man was not vital to that.

[Jens]

4 minutes ago, Malin said:

this is not a group of people starting out with the intention to make it to rune level at all

Fully agree- with reusable rune magic no longer the exclusive domain of rune levels, there are many more paths to power that don't involve becoming one. And Ernalda strikes me as a great cult for a farmer- farming, animal and plant lore are cult skills, Bless Crops is a fabulous spell, not to mention your cult controls the distribution of farm land in many regions...

I'm also a touch bemused at this presumed tight coupling between cult and occupation/skill set. Advertising copy that suggests you can think of your cult as a D&D character class is not in my mind a handcuff that turns your cult into a restrictive class. Players should feel free to explore interesting combinations- not everyone needs to be a min-maxed world shaking super being, unless of course that's the flavour of your particular campaign. Same with the notion you need particular rune spells to be an effective combatant- Ernalda for example offers pretty much every spirit magic spell you'd need to be a fantastic front-line fighter, either directly or through her allied cults.

[Bill the barbarian]

23 hours ago, g33k said:

Ernalda is a bit light on "fighty" magic (in RQ).

18 hours ago, Jens said:

Agreed, Summon Household Guardian costing only a single RP which can easily be regained (even for 1 POW it would still be a bargain) means pretty much every household in an Ernaldan community would have one.

11 hours ago, Malin said:

We have an Ernaldan fighter in one of the campaigns I am running, and that can work just fine. 

2 hours ago, Malin said:

Oh, one of the player other characters is not an initiate in any cult from the start, this is not a group of people starting out with the intention to make it to rune level at all. That's really not what the campaign is about, so don't worry about him!

1 hour ago, Jens said:

I'm also a touch bemused at this presumed tight coupling between cult and occupation/skill set. Advertising copy that suggests you can think of your cult as a D&D character class is not in my mind a handcuff that turns your cult into a restrictive class. Players should feel free to explore interesting combinations- not everyone needs to be a min-maxed world shaking super being, unless of course that's the flavour of your particular campaign. Same with the notion you need particular rune spells to be an effective combatant- Ernalda for example offers pretty much every spirit magic spell you'd need to be a fantastic front-line fighter, either directly or through her allied cults.

 

I like Ernaldans! I like individuals that adventure! I love a good story. Sounds like a win-win!

Overall the only limiting disadvantages, as a fighter, an ernaldan would have are:

To start, the cap of DEXx5 for fighting skills listed for Ernaldan priestesses in CoR (it not being a martial cult) are certainly a limit. But, the DI of an EARTH Priestess, great access to Rune Spells of a defensive nature, great elementals and enchantments, and an excellent set of spirit magics (that would be most of them from the RBoM, and all from a wide variety of temples, to boot). Sounds good. Speaking of temples, even the greatest of spendthrift Ernaldan priestesses (within the RP economy) will have most of their RP any given week of the year should they feel particularly pious. 

The second disadvantage offers a few challenges but a good player and a good GM should be able to overcome most of them offscreen (or as a great story hook if they are both willing); pregnancy. I can leave that one alone I think. It writes itself.

Combine an ernaldan with a husband protector and you have a fighting couple with near CA healing and resurrection abilities. The rules even show an ernaldan can be a shaman (just for that possible extra rebirth ability and disease and spirit fighting talents)!

... as good a fighter a humakti or bg? No, but an excellent support fighter, a truly able home defence specialist and a great fighting medic... well... these are just three of the fantastic possibilities that exists for our beginning Green Lady.

The final limiting disadvantage might be felt only if one lacked an imagination and the desire and love for an adventurous good tale. 

Boxes are cute, but I like to think outside of the box.

Edited August 2 by Bill the barbarian

[Ian Absentia]

1 hour ago, Jens said:

I'm also a touch bemused at this presumed tight coupling between cult and occupation/skill set. Advertising copy that suggests you can think of your cult as a D&D character class is not in my mind a handcuff that turns your cult into a restrictive class. Players should feel free to explore interesting combinations- not everyone needs to be a min-maxed world shaking super being, unless of course that's the flavour of your particular campaign.

RPG characters, by and large, are the exceptions to the rules.  Going too far off script can derail a game, sure, but the more interesting characters for everyone at the table are the ones who defy expectations rather than simply fulfilling them.

!i!

[Geoff R Evil]

So, not satisfied in having the best rune spell access in the game, even better than Orlanth the king of gods?

In a game I run two sisters who are an ernalden and a babeestor gor. That works well, the ernalden swings her axe when she has to, but plays her nurturing roll well be supporting her axe sister.

as others have said, being an ernaldan that wants to be a frontline fighter are not getting the idea of Gloranthan god emulation. Not as a prescription, but the warrior woman path is already mapped with maran gor and babeestor gor. It would be hard to be accepted in Gloranthan society as a ernaldan that does not nurture its people, would find them outside of society in any game I ran, probably leaving to join a cult that accepts their aggressive ways. If you are happy being ostracised, then that’s cool, go for it, but don’t expect you god to always answer your prayers for more rune points or DI perhaps, or society to accept you either, reputation works negatively and positively….

[Mugen]

59 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

To start, the cap of DEXx5 for fighting skills listed for Ernaldan priestesses in CoR (it not being a martial cult) are certainly a limit. 

That's a limitation I never liked, and would certainly ignore if I ever play RQ again.

Wasn't it even worse in RQ3, something like DEX x3 ?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

58 minutes ago, Geoff R Evil said:

the warrior woman path is already mapped with maran gor and babeestor gor.

Last decade I would have added "don't forget Vinga".  But it seems like RQG has largely forgotten or minimized her.  -:(

BG is an awesome PC cult.  Arguably better than Humakt as a warrior.

[Geoff R Evil]

On 8/2/2024 at 9:41 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Last decade I would have added "don't forget Vinga".

Well I was focussed on Earth goddess warrior cults. I don’t think Vinga has been forgotten, but she has been made into an Orlanthi subcult. Which you may or may not agree with. Her access to Fearless is awesome when you meet those Dehori, ZZ or even Stormbulls. But she perhaps could have at least one more Vingan specialist rune spell I think, something javelin centric feels about right maybe.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 8/2/2024 at 12:04 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

the DI of an EARTH Priestess

???  Maybe I missed something, but I don't see where priestesses get any special DI in RQG.  Rune Lord D.I. in RQG is much cheaper compared to RQ.

[Bill the barbarian]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

???  Maybe I missed something, but I don't see where priestesses get any special DI in RQG.  Rune Lord D.I. in RQG is much cheaper compared to RQ.

 

FROM RQ G PAGE 273

Divine Intervention: Procedure

The procedure for divine intervention differs for initiates, God-talkers, Rune Priests, and Rune Lords, reflecting their status in the eyes of the deity they serve. Lay members cannot appeal for divine intervention; they are just not significant enough.

<SNIP>

Initiates and Rune Priests then roll a D100.

If an initiate’s D100 roll is greater than their POW, then the god does not act. If a Rune Priest’s D100 roll is greater than their POW + current unspent Rune points, the god is similarly unmoved. However, if the D100 roll is equal to or less than the adventurer’s POW if they are an initiate, or their POW + current unspent Rune points in the case of a Rune Priest, the god hears the appeal and intervenes as the adventurer requests.

The adventurer then loses POW equal to the number rolled in return for the divine intervention. Rune Priests lose their unspent Rune points first, then POW. If the D100 roll is low enough, a lucky priest may only lose some of their Rune points. Any Rune points spent in divine intervention are regained normally (at the next holy day etc.). Lost points of POW disappear once the effects of the divine intervention are over, such as if the adventurer is whisked to safely, or successfully overcomes a foe with the god’s  assistance.

Divine intervention has the same sort of limitations as Divination. A deity cannot do other than what it did during the God Time. Orlanth cannot make the earth shake, Ernalda cannot bring a storm, and Issaries cannot create a cloak of darkness. Only an Earth deity can open holes in the ground, and only a Fire god can create a fire hot enough to melt bronze.

Edited August 3 by Bill the barbarian

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@Bill the barbarian  Thanks - I didn't know all those details.  Yes, a Rune Priest D.I. is slightly better than an initiates.

I totally agree with you that Ernalda makes a great adventuring cult, and they can be decent fighters.

As for the DEX x 5 limitation, yes, that's a pain, especially as getting skills above 100% seems easier in RQG than in RQ2.  However, it's pretty darned easy to become a Priest or Priestess.  Basically POW 18 and 5 rune points.  And you get some very nice benefits.  So I think the DEX limitation is, overall, a "fair tradeoff", but I understand that many think it's just annoying.

[Nick Brooke]

“Slightly better”?

Did you miss that the Rune Priest’s spent Rune points come back next holy day?

[Bill the barbarian]

...and for Ernalda, this is quite significant. She has a few holy days to access. 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

“Slightly better”?

Did you miss that the Rune Priest’s spent Rune points come back next holy day?

Imagine a powerful Priest with 18 POW and 18 unspent rune points.  Compare to a powerful initiate with 17 POW.

1. The priest's DI will work twice as often.  Good.
2. Half the time the priest will not lose any POW.  Good.
3. The DI still fails most of the time.  Bad. 
   1. When you need DI, you need DI.  😞
4. When the DI works, half the time the priest loses POW and is, temporarily, no longer a priest.  Bad.
   1. NOTE: In this case, their spent Rune points do not always come back the next holy day.  (Though a nice GM might allow it)

O.K., the priest DI could be considered twice as good as initiate D.I.  Nick may be correct that "slightly" is too harsh.  However, like an Olympic Judge, I have to leave room for terminology for Rune Lord DI , which is amazingly better.  Consider a Rune Lord with whatever POW (need not be 18), and 18 unspent rune points.

1. Their DI always works
2. It never uses POW
3. In fact, with 18 unused rune points, they can use two DIs that will work, and only a tiny 4% chance to lose 1  or 2 POW
4. On the average, they could call for three DIs without losing POW.
5. If they are in a large cult with lots of associates, as @Bill the barbarian pointed out, the Rune Points will return soon.

In conclusion, I agree that DI from a Priestess of Ernalda is nice.  But DI from a Rune Lord is awesome.  So I would not list DI as a "big benefit" of a PC in Ernalda.  Ernalda has many many other wonderful benefits.  It's an awesome and fun PC (and NPC) cult.