How would you defeat the crimson bat?

[firestell]

This is mostly just a thought experiment, trying to come up with ways PCs could replicate lore feats using only the rules we currently have. 

The main issue is getting past his 40 points of armor, AND to do it consistently enough to outdamage his passive regeneration. The bat absorbs all rune spells targeted at it, so the standard nukes like thunderbolt and sunspear are out. To me it seems the only alternative is to maximize crit fishing.

Of course if you throw enough archers at a problem it will eventually go away. Some napkin math tells me you'd need around 180 arrows shot at 100% skill to kill it in one turn, although 100% skill is hard to get given that the archers would likely be shooting at an angle. 

A more climatic and heroic approach that came would be to attack it from the back. Not sure if this is explicitly in the core rulebook somewhere, but from reading the combat Q&A there are seems to be some specific cases where you could make an unopposed attack roll, applying your full skill bonus. Now usually this was referring to stealth attacks, but I have a hard imagining how a gigantic bat could dodge or parry attacks from tiny ants on its back, so it feels like this should work.

In this way you could teleport/fly a bunch uroxi/babs gori/humakti to the back of the bat and hope they can bring it down before the endless swarm of ticks kills them all. With Morale and their respective buffing spells its not unreasonable to assume a 200% skill for each one. If they're all using 2d8 weapons with a 1d4 db, quick napkin maths tells me it'd take around 47 attacks to bring it down in 1 turn, 25 if they were all true weapon'd. 

Definitely more people required than the number of PCs, but seems doable if each one was leading an elite squad or something. Of course in an actual scene it wouldnt be just them and the bat, there'd be an entire army duking it out + however many bat priests up there trying to stop them.

What is your take on all of this? Am I being too generous in my assumptions? If you were a military general in charge of an army and not a heroquesting superhero, how would you do this?

[Jens]

A few ways come immediately to mind-

1. Lend your Humakti and Axe Maidens all of your MP sinks (crystals, matrixes, etc.), and have them cast Trance. 100 MP should get them skills over 1000% before adding in Morale or other boosts, for over 50% chance to critical each blow.
2. Aldryami with Arrow Trance may seem underpowered with only 2-300% attack chances, but load them up with multispelled multimissiles and each archer can launch 30 or more arrows every single round.
3. Find a friendly sorcerer, and load them up with big Boon of Kargan Tor and Neutralize Armor inscriptions. Should be possible to get at least a 50% chance to ignore armour, as well as straight damage boosts in the +10D6 range. For even more fun, have the sorcerer research the Manipulation version of Logician, and boost their weapon skill by a few hundred % as well, guaranteeing at least a special on each hit.
4. Find some friendly Trolls and load up on Yellow Stones to Kill Chaos- 1D10 points of damage ignoring armour per stone can take even the Bat down fast.
5. You've got some bound Tricksters, of course. Have them cast Strike on your SWAT team weapons- the first blow that hits ignores armour, and the spell lasts until you do hit.
6. If you have some Xiola Umbar friends who are all in for the win, have them cast Attract Attention and Turn Blow on themselves (or see if you can borrow a matrix). The Bat will swoop in to attack them, and all damage will be reflected back on the Bat, ignoring armour. If you're lucky, the Bat will even hit you in the head.
7. Thinking truly outside the box? Perhaps you can loot a Vomit Acid matrix, or find an Illuminated Ogre to cast it for you. Pump it with 42 MP, puke on the Bat, problem solved!

[David Scott]

In the Dragon Pass board game, one trick is not to engage it, so it turns on its own side to feed, and if it doesn't feed, it gets eliminated. The other tried and trusted method is to ally one of the dragons (brown, green, red - black is allied to Cragspider and can't leave her territory). Then Dragonfight the Bat which eliminates both automatically. Otherwise I've once had Argrath and his associated stack do it. Maybe others have had better luck with other tactics.

     

Counters from the VASSAL Dragon Pass module.

[Kloster]

Gather all your Humakti to throw a big bunch of Sever Spirit. Even with missed POW vs POW, you get 1D6 damage. Of course, if at least 1 is successful, the bat belongs to Humakt.

[David Scott]

20 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Gather all your Humakti to throw a big bunch of Sever Spirit. Even with missed POW vs POW, you get 1D6 damage. Of course, if at least 1 is successful, the bat belongs to Humakt.

Magic Absorption: The Bat absorbs all magic, spirit, Rune, or sorcery, cast at it...

 

[metcalph]

If we're using Dragon Pass rules, then the old double tap with spirits is the easiest at the cost of one regiment of magicians being totally nerfed.

[Kloster]

48 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Magic Absorption: The Bat absorbs all magic, spirit, Rune, or sorcery, cast at it...

 

Ooooops. I forgot that one.

[Akhôrahil]

An 18-point Slash will both overcome armour and add in a lot of extra damage. Splitting attacks might be worth it here.

Humakti stacking several damage doublers on top of each other do insane damage as well.

[PhilHibbs]

The classic technique is to get on or above the bat and kill the cultists that control it.

[svensson]

To the OP:

I don't think I've ever seen a statistically rendered character in the RPG that could stand a chance by themselves.

Allegiances aside, the Lunar Coders have a chance at it but they'd undoubtedly lose at least one member of the team. And, now that I think of it, Nose Ring would have to strike to kill and probably end up using a fair chunk of his stored Truestone magics as well. This is definitely a fight that'll require more than one tank!

[Tomàs]

Never confront it directly. That tactic is madness and doomed to fail. To defeat the Crimson Bat you must prevent it from feeding. It needs 100 living sentients each week, and if those requirements are not fulfilled, it will need double the quantity each day it passes with no food. Until the next Godsday, when it will fade away and disappear from the mundane plane.

 

So, you must strike its logistics. 100 people a week needs a good organization. Disrupt its food chain somehow and you will defeat it.

 

[Akhôrahil]

I doubt it will sit quietly in the meanwhile, though. The point of the Feeders isn’t to ensure it gets fed, but that it doesn’t feed itself indiscrimately.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 8/8/2024 at 6:53 AM, firestell said:

What is your take on all of this? Am I being too generous in my assumptions? If you were a military general in charge of an army and not a heroquesting superhero, how would you do this?

in my opinion, normal pc (aka without heroquesting strong powers) should not succeed.

Many windlords sacrificied their lives (and their souls !!!) during the battle of - I don't remember, I let the lore masters give you/me the reference 😛 - to ban it but the bat is back.

So except if people consider these runelords were just appointed before the battle (without any heroquest powers and bad gear), very very unlucky, and dumb enough to not see the good way to destroy it, I imagine that is not possible with the rules and powers described in the core book

Note that's not only a bat to defeat, but a bat with its priests, its guardians and protectors, and with the army, intelligence services, school magics of the most powerful empire in this region (to not say in the world). I don't imagine that the lunars will let few pcs hiring  a big army and/or lot of specialists (without any traitors among them) against one of their best "weapon" without any reaction

imo, defeating the bat implies a lot of scenarios:

- social to create a network of allies, and to identify "cowards" among the clans rings and temples hierarchies,

- intelligence to create a fog, to remove spies from the table (kill or manipulate them), and to take away as much as possible warriors and magicians (maybe sacrifice a full army or a city / tribe)

- research to find the more useful weapons and powers  against the bat

 

and of course travel the other world  many times to help any of these situations, for example

- " you want me to give you my best warriors but who are you, ridiculous guys, show me your powers before any decision" (quests like labors of Hercules)

- find a way to get "detect honor" "detect truth", "detect coward" as a heroic power (like the shaman "spell extension" ability p362)

- find a god / hero in the other world to know the main weakness of the bat the god / hero used to defeat it centuries ago. Maybe even a lightbringers quest to come back with some unknown bat's ennemy, then discover that this guy may be dangerous too for yourself, once the bat is defeated

 

[skulldixon]

Step 1: complete a series of Heroquests to determine the best approach to complete step 2.

Step 2: Destroy the Crimson bat at its creation point, so it no longer exists. 

Step 3: Have a party. 

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, skulldixon said:

Step 1: complete a series of Heroquests to determine the best approach to complete step 2.

Step 2: Destroy the Crimson bat at its creation point, so it no longer exists. 

Step 3: Have a party. 

Step 2: The Bat originally is the death god of Rinliddi, released into the world when Eurmal stole the Separation between Creation and the Void. In the Dawn Age, the Bright Empire fielded the Scarlet Bat (or some other dark, near-violet shade of red) against Arkat, who brought it down and skinned it, giving it its Crimson aspect. Whether or how much the Bat was a Chaos monster before that struggle is unknown (to me, at least). The demon that remained was banished to the deepest Hell, where it lingered until Teelo Estara encountered and released it.

So, how could a quester intercept the Bat?

Stop Eurmal from stealing Death? That would unravel most of the Gods War if one succeeded.

Prevent Nysalor from fielding the (yet unskinned) Bat against Arkat? That's an event in Time, and you cannot really heroquest there. Same with Arkat skinning the thing.

Intercept Teelo Estara on her way back from her encounter with Blaskarth (Chaos)? Offer her a ride back on the Star Bear? Those things happened in Godtime, or at least outside of Time. But that wouldn't undo the entire moon bit or its previous actions.

Cure the Bat of its injuries (and possibly of Chaos). A bit tricky when it flies up to the walls of Whitewall, but who knows?

Lure the Bat into one of those Godtime places, like the Toehole in the Footprint, the Skyfall, or the Eternal Battle, and trap it there.

Capture the Southpath planet Artia (the Bat) and make it crash down - preferrably into the Crater, plugging it up, or into the Bat Cave on the Red Moon.

Send in a True Dragon. Feed it to another Chaos horror. Send it down Magasta's Pool. Manifest a giant Yinkin. Become Arkat, and re-skin it.

[Jens]

26 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Become Arkat, and re-skin it.

Step 1. Steal the White Bear’s skin from Harrek. 
Step 2. Reskin the Bat. 
Step 3. Profit!

[Akhôrahil]

So let's take a look at the Bat:

* Its combat skills are nothing - 100% should get dropped to 5% by anyone even remotely competent to engage it, with points to spare. The Bite is nasty as it can't be parried, but by SR 12 in the first round it should be down anyway, so that won't be a problem. (Also, if you stand on its head, it stands to reason that it can't bite you.)

* Eye Spit is pretty strong, but won't matter too much if the attackers have some DI to spare, and plus it doesn't really keep them from taking it down.

* Chaos Scream is easily countered by any number of Rune Spells. You will want to bring those, though.

* Breath Cloud isn't a massive problem if you've put on defensive magic first.

* Wing Storm will depend on GM interpretation, especially at what SR it happens and whether it can do it at a moment's notice or needs to work things up. I would allow DI to Orlanth to negate winds for a round, though. One Orlanth cultist could also negate the winds for a round with regular Rune Magic. 

* Since it can't be targeted by spells, it needs to go down from attacks.

* 42 points of armor isn't nothing, but can certainly be cracked and then some by strong attackers. Its HP is low enough that it's easily defeated.

So what's the strategy?

* You need to get there and back again. Teleportation both ways is a no-brainer. Guided Teleportation works for getting home but not getting there.

* You need to hurt it. This means either crit-hunting, or bringing enough regular damage. Easiest pick here is just a BG Rune Lord with an 18+ points of Slash (could easily be 30+ points for someone experienced). BG is also great because of Axe Trance - you should certainly be able to hit 600% in Axe and make three 100% attacks in a round in SRs 6, 9 and 12 (get Mobility if required). With the Bat's size, you should always hit the same area - the one you're standing on. Reducing the location to 0 HP in one round should be no issue whatsoever, and you can probably get your outright kill in one round as well (land on the head). The ideal solution here is to have two such dedicated attackers (in case something goes wrong with one), with the Slash buffed by someone else in advance (or done through Spell Trading shenanigans).

* You need to survive. 10 point Shield should do it (also cast by a third party in advance, or through Spell Trading nonsense).

* You need to have your back clear. Ticks are nothing, but the cult matters. Apart from the two Strikers, you need a screening force. Since we don't quite know how strong the cult is, this is more variable, but turning up with teleportation, buffed to the gills, and needing only a round or two should be pretty doable. You might want to form a separate distraction party and drop it in among them, that should keep them busy for the 12 seconds you need.

So I'd say 4-6 Rune Lords as the strike force (2 BG hitters, 2 Orlanth Adventurous (or 1 OA and 1 OT) to secure teleportation, the rest any combat types) and a ground crew of one to three times their number depending on how good they are. Buff the strike force to the gills as described above, teleport in on the head, kill in one round, teleport out from the crashing Bat. A high-level PC party with a bunch of supporters could do it (you can skip the support crew if you're very strong, or if you had time to prep with Spell Trading), or the mere Rune Lord retinue of someone like King Broyan. Actual heroes surely makes everything easier, but you don't really need them.

So the Bat takes some combat power and preparation to take down, but it's well within reach of a band of mid-end Rune Lords with a decent support structure (spoiler, this means PCs!). With high-end but pre-Hero Rune Lords, you might be able to cut the strike force down to two or three people.

Edited August 13 by Akhôrahil

[svensson]

On 8/12/2024 at 12:46 PM, Tomàs said:

Never confront it directly. That tactic is madness and doomed to fail. To defeat the Crimson Bat you must prevent it from feeding. It needs 100 living sentients each week, and if those requirements are not fulfilled, it will need double the quantity each day it passes with no food. Until the next Godsday, when it will fade away and disappear from the mundane plane.

 

So, you must strike its logistics. 100 people a week needs a good organization. Disrupt its food chain somehow and you will defeat it.

 

Well, it will likely take two full weeks, as the Bat will consume its cult members. Lay members alone will satiate it for a week. The initiates will feed it another week, possibly two. And remember that the Bat can travel 24/7 without rest. That covers a lot of ground. Of course, it's not hard to get the locals to flee with "Run for your lives! THE BAT IS COMING!"

Nevertheless at that travel speed the Bat can cover an entire province before it starves. That's a lot of people to move and a lousy road net to move them with. Yes, I realize the Empire has the best roads in Western Genertela, but even the best roads can be overloaded with panicked people traveling with the family treasures. Just look at the refugees clogging the roads of France in War Two... and I submit to you that the French road net was orders of magnitude better than the Lunar Empire's [aka 'Imperial Roman'] net. Granted you have the Daughter's Road, but even that has its limitations.

The strategy of denying the Bat is entirely sound, and the best idea so far suggested, but methodology needs a lot of work.

[French Desperate WindChild]

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

So let's take a look at the Bat:

* Its combat skills are nothing - 100% should get dropped to 5% by anyone even remotely competent to engage it, with points to spare. The Bite is nasty as it can't be parried, but by SR 12 in the first round it should be down anyway, so that won't be a problem. (Also, if you stand on its head, it stands to reason that it can't bite you.)

* Eye Spit is pretty strong, but won't matter too much if the attackers have some DI to spare, and plus it doesn't really keep them from taking it down.

* Chaos Scream is easily countered by any number of Rune Spells. You will want to bring those, though.

* Breath Cloud isn't a massive problem if you've put on defensive magic first.

* Wing Storm will depend on GM interpretation, especially at what SR it happens and whether it can do it at a moment's notice or needs to work things up. I would allow DI to Orlanth to negate winds for a round, though. One Orlanth cultist could also negate the winds for a round with regular Rune Magic. 

* Since it can't be targeted by spells, it needs to go down from attacks.

* 42 points of armor isn't nothing, but can certainly be cracked and then some by strong attackers. Its HP is low enough that it's easily defeated.

So what's the strategy?

* You need to get there and back again. Teleportation both ways is a no-brainer. Guided Teleportation works for getting home but not getting there.

* You need to hurt it. This means either crit-hunting, or bringing enough regular damage. Easiest pick here is just a BG Rune Lord with an 18+ points of Slash (could easily be 30+ points for someone experienced). BG is also great because of Axe Trance - you should certainly be able to hit 600% in Axe and make three 100% attacks in a round in SRs 6, 9 and 12 (get Mobility if required). With the Bat's size, you should always hit the same area - the one you're standing on. Reducing the location to 0 HP in one round should be no issue whatsoever, and you can probably get your outright kill in one round as well (land on the head). The ideal solution here is to have two such dedicated attackers (in case something goes wrong with one), with the Slash buffed by someone else in advance (or done through Spell Trading shenanigans).

* You need to survive. 10 point Shield should do it (also cast by a third party in advance, or through Spell Trading nonsense).

* You need to have your back clear. Ticks are nothing, but the cult matters. Apart from the two Strikers, you need a screening force. Since we don't quite know how strong the cult is, this is more variable, but turning up with teleportation, buffed to the gills, and needing only a round or two should be pretty doable. You might want to form a separate distraction party and drop it in among them, that should keep them busy for the 12 seconds you need.

So I'd say 4-6 Rune Lords as the strike force (2 BG hitters, 2 Orlanth Adventurous (or 1 OA and 1 OT) to secure teleportation, the rest any combat types) and a ground crew of one to three times their number depending on how good they are. Buff the strike force to the gills as described above, teleport in on the head, kill in one round, teleport out from the crashing Bat. A high-level PC party with a bunch of supporters could do it (you can skip the support crew if you're very strong, or if you had time to prep with Spell Trading), or the mere Rune Lord retinue of someone like King Broyan. Actual heroes surely makes everything easier, but you don't really need them.

So the Bat takes some combat power and preparation to take down, but it's well within reach of a band of mid-end Rune Lords with a decent support structure (spoiler, this means PCs!). With high-end but pre-Hero Rune Lords, you might be able to cut the strike force down to two or three people.

Of course the twenty/hundred/billion ( !!! 😉 ) rune level lunars who are around this monster will not try to dispell your  shield and other magic/ Noone will cast mindblast, madness, multimissile, disruption, sunspear, silence, sunspear or anything. Lunars moto seems to be "wait and see"

 

however there is a simpler way, based on your point :

17 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

if the attackers have some DI to spare,

just ask your god to ban it (a divine wind should be able to send it in magasta pool, a earth quake may send it so deep that only Frodo and friends will wake it when they will visit the dwarves, and it he will be able to come back, but  another DI  may succeed "you shall not pass" )

So in fact it is easy, burn 1d6 pow and that's done

 

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Of course the twenty/hundred/billion ( !!! 😉 ) rune level lunars who are around this monster will not try to dispell your  shield and other magic/ Noone will cast mindblast, madness, multimissile, disruption, sunspear, silence, sunspear or anything. Lunars moto seems to be "wait and see"

They have just seconds to respond, to something that happens above them and likely out of sight, and plus the Bat does go around without other Lunars than its cult when in grazing mode. The Cult is serious, but unless they’re as immune to surprise as the Bat, they’re at a serious disadvantage. Plus when you go in fully buffed and the opposition isn’t, that’s an enormous advantage. You really should be able to give the hitters 12 seconds to work, and that’s all it takes.

If your GM has the Cult respond with instant, coordinated, optimized action to an attack out of nowhere, it’s time to call shenanigans. Attacking when they’re busy collecting victims might be the ideal time.

Edited August 14 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

I think @Akhôrahil has a reasonable plan.  What's most interesting is that two of the key spells, Axe Trance and Teleport, are effing dirt cheap.  1 rune point for axe trance, 5 to teleport the Orlanthi and two BG choppers.  The Slash is spendy.

For any doubting that BG is an OP warrior cult, read this thread.  Count just how many of the proposals involve Slash and Trance.

Orlanth is also super good, as expected.  I think that teleporting on top of a large enemy should be restricted, (maybe a POW v POW roll?) though my Vingan has done so so often that the GM simply expects it to happen, and budgets that into expected rune point costs...

How about a different thought experiment: How would Lunars defeat the Bat?  They have access to none of these spells.

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

For any doubting that BG is an OP warrior cult, read this thread.  Count just how many of the proposals involve Slash and Trance.

Humakti weapon gifts do astonishing damage, after armor. But often, the big issue is cracking the armor in the first place. There, Slash is just boss. Truesword has excellent Rune Point economy, but it just doesn't grow as big.

Edited August 14 by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How about a different thought experiment: How would Lunars defeat the Bat?  They have access to none of these spells.

They could send Dart Competition teams with individuals who have these teleport spells. All kinds of mercenaries are recruited for this assassination game, including Provincial Orlanthi. Issaries Spell Trading could be used. And the Lunars have sorcery.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

How about a different thought experiment: How would Lunars defeat the Bat?  They have access to none of these spells.

They do have access to the skill... Bat Mastery.  Get the Bat Controller drunk and crash the Bat into a True Dragon.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

They could send Dart Competition teams with individuals who have these teleport spells

I know that, canonically, Lunars have teleport, since they used it to finish off Kallyr at the Battle of the Queens. 

Where do they get it?

Edited August 14 by Rodney Dangerduck