Squaredeal Sten Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 (edited) The oldest wagons I have seen pictures of have spoked wheels. and are bronze age. So i would not assume solid wheels. Edited September 18 by Squaredeal Sten fat fingered the virtual keys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said: The oldest wagons I have seen pictures of have spoked wheels. and are bronze age. So zi would not assume solid wheels. According to Abu Simbel bas-relief, Ramses's chariot used at the battle of Kadesh (1274 BC) used spoked wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiný Posted September 18 Author Share Posted September 18 ahhh yes here we are...well given we have this info ..why are the routes from sartar to pavis not using wagons and said to be using mules/beasts of burden as I heard someone mention earlier ..they said 70% of cargo capicity was given over to forage and water which seems a no brainer to profit when added into potential praxian nomad attacks . Pavis wagon trains? or is the trail too rough/dry/grassless/non-existant??? Quote Cart, Four-wheeled: An open, wooden vehicle for transporting heavy loads. It requires two beasts of burden or four men to draw it. Price: 10 L. Cart, Two-wheeled: An open, wooden vehicle drawn by a single beast of burden or two men. Price: 4 L. Wagon, Four-wheeled: A vehicle with wooden sides usually covered with a hide or cloth canopy, drawn by a pair of horses or other beasts of burden. Price: 15 L plus 5 L for cover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted September 18 Share Posted September 18 20 hours ago, Tiný said: carts ? 2 wheel , 4 wheel ? , wagons (wicked wild prax west?) ? how common in glorantha? 1 wheel chinese wheelbarrow ? just curious , solid wheels I assume? yes, yes, yes, likely yes. And I think there is a general assumption that spoked wheels are likely available (based on the Dara Happan symbol for Lokarnos as in GRoY, p.75) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Biles Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 4 hours ago, Tiný said: ahhh yes here we are...well given we have this info ..why are the routes from sartar to pavis not using wagons and said to be using mules/beasts of burden as I heard someone mention earlier ..they said 70% of cargo capicity was given over to forage and water which seems a no brainer to profit when added into potential praxian nomad attacks . Pavis wagon trains? or is the trail too rough/dry/grassless/non-existant??? There are no roads from Sartar to Pavis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose-san Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 On 9/14/2024 at 3:25 PM, Akhôrahil said: Huge Waste Elementals sweep the streets at night, gobbling everything up to add to their stinking, decaying bodies. At day, they're herded out to the fields to deposit it. It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. Actually, Earth Elementals would be great to clean the streets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiný Posted September 19 Author Share Posted September 19 9 hours ago, John Biles said: There are no roads from Sartar to Pavis. There must be a rough trail of sorts ..2 if I understand correctly..there is some serious traffic between these two areas .....or are there ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 1 hour ago, Tiný said: There must be a rough trail of sorts ..2 if I understand correctly..there is some serious traffic between these two areas .....or are there ? The Pavis Road was a military road running from Herongreen to New Pavis but it is basically a track, and lacking sources of water. Most people follow the caravan trail instead. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-pavis-road/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulJW Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 (edited) On 9/18/2024 at 3:37 AM, Squaredeal Sten said: The oldest wagons I have seen pictures of have spoked wheels. and are bronze age. So i would not assume solid wheels. Indeed, spoked wheels were very common in our bronze age during the mid-to-late period. It was the age of chariots after all & illustrations from the period show them with spoked wheels. I think the earliest surviving spoked wheel from our history is from 2000 BC (which is late neolithic/early bronze age). Edited September 19 by PaulJW 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiný Posted September 19 Author Share Posted September 19 7 hours ago, M Helsdon said: The Pavis Road was a military road running from Herongreen to New Pavis but it is basically a track, and lacking sources of water. Most people follow the caravan trail instead. https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-pavis-road/ yes this was the article I was refering to earlier ...but again we are talking about glorantha ..with magic, hero quests to open new sources of water , or to defeat the evil spirits choking the Adari River which "is dry for most of the year" mmmm why not have some one cast cloud cover and rain and spread out your leather sheets and water troughs to gather the 15 mins Oppss longer time use xtension ..as much rain water for your animals to drink etc. In the world of glorantha such hardships would be overcome with magic and spells ,I can not see people being all dragged over most of prax in wide rambling circles for lack of a water cultist ($$$) who would be able to make the river god rise up for an hour or so or someone else who could make the grass grow in a limited area etc .It starts to sound like dogma and of course all your experiences will vary..I feel this limiting idea which does not take into account the inherent magic of the game world . I suspect this is old trickster story designed to make weak willed and guilble saps go with the caravan south and all over the plains and act as unwitting canon fodder/arrow shields in case of attacks and pay double to the issaries merchants for the pleasure of a round trip to every mudhole in Prax each one with ONLY one lousy caravanserai owned by ..wait a minute ....the same merchants who own the caravan! Scam 😉 ps --sounds like its time for a "watering the pavis road " heroquest and I dont mean its pee pee time either 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 (edited) 1 hour ago, PaulJW said: Indeed, spoked wheels were very common in our bronze age during the mid-to-late period. It was the age of chariots after all & illustrations from the period show them with spoked wheels. I think the earliest surviving spoked wheel from our history is from 2000 BC (which is late neolithic/early bronze age). Bronze age, in the Mediterranean area, is roughly 2500 to 800BC. The battle of Qadesh occured in 1274 (clearly mid bronze age) and used allegedly 5700 chariots between Ramses's egyptians and Mutawali's hittites, all of them with spoked wheels Edited September 19 by Kloster typing mistake 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svensson Posted September 19 Share Posted September 19 Solid wheels were for wagons that didn't have speed demands placed on them [as compared to chariots]. While they were somewhat wasteful in materials, they were far easier to make than spoked wheels and took far, FAR less maintenance. This is something to consider if your society largely relies on at-home woodworking for much of their needs. Most villages in wooded regions have a fairly high level of 'jack o' trades' skill among the farmers. On any given day a farmer will have to turn his hand to any number of chores and this provides him with a good level of skill in a lot of crafts. This means that villages will have a fairly high average level of hands-on crafting. But this crafting is also cruder and less refined than that of a focused craftsman. They can get new wooden hinges on your door, but they won't be pretty or smooth. It's the same thing with most crafts... they can repair simple tools, weave a needed basket, make cordage out of grass or hair and so forth. But for dowel turning, hot smithing, and so on, you need a dedicated trained craftsman to do that work. And you need the materials to do the work with. In Prax's Sun County, there aren't many woodworkers at all. Why? Because there aren't that many trees, and most of the ones they do have are softwoods like date palms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Helsdon Posted September 20 Share Posted September 20 (edited) 11 hours ago, Tiný said: yes this was the article I was refering to earlier ...but again we are talking about glorantha ..with magic, hero quests to open new sources of water , or to defeat the evil spirits choking the Adari River which "is dry for most of the year" mmmm why not have some one cast cloud cover and rain and spread out your leather sheets and water troughs to gather the 15 mins Oppss longer time use xtension ..as much rain water for your animals to drink etc. The Adari is dry for most of the year because of weather patterns, and those, in Glorantha, are caused by gods, major and minor, and spirits, large and small. To alter the Adari's water flow would require inducing the winds to deliver clouds to the Adari's watershed, and to induce those clouds to deliver rain throughout the year, and the existing flow is mostly melt water from winter snow. As for using leather sheets to collect water, even in a major downpour, the catchment won't be enough to satisfy the thirst of draught animals. 11 hours ago, Tiný said: In the world of glorantha such hardships would be overcome with magic and spells Only in a very limited way. 11 hours ago, Tiný said: I can not see people being all dragged over most of prax in wide rambling circles for lack of a water cultist ($$$) who would be able to make the river god rise up for an hour or so or someone else who could make the grass grow in a limited area etc .It starts to sound like dogma and of course all your experiences will vary..I feel this limiting idea which does not take into account the inherent magic of the game world . The innate magical nature of Glorantha makes making significant changes to the geography and climate very difficult, as those are embodied within major magical forces. Water has to come from somewhere, and unless hidden underground, as with the Serpents of the Wastes, has to be delivered by Heler and his clouds. The Pavis Road is just a trail of hard-packed earth. If it rains, it turns into a quagmire with wheels and animals stuck in the mud. Edited September 20 by M Helsdon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted September 20 Share Posted September 20 (edited) 19 hours ago, Tiný said: In the world of glorantha such hardships would be overcome with magic and spells ,I can not see people being all dragged over most of prax in wide rambling circles for lack of a water cultist ($$$) who would be able to make the river god rise up for an hour or so or someone else who could make the grass grow in a limited area etc .It starts to sound like dogma and of course all your experiences will vary..I feel this limiting idea which does not take into account the inherent magic of the game world . So the God Learners thought. And the Gods rose up and destroyed them. What happens when you try to bring that water to Prax? In the Wastes, the spores of Chaos germinate and fester, the Devil's Marsh grows, and monstrous beings like Cwim and Thed are drawn to the area. And then Storm Bull is forced to scour it away with his hot, dry breath and clouds of stinging sand. Or perhaps you've simply summoned Orlanth's clouds farther, and then Storm Bull simply gets angry at Orlanth's incursion into his domain and summons his raging winds to push Orlanth back where he belongs. Edited September 20 by jajagappa 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiný Posted September 20 Author Share Posted September 20 7 hours ago, jajagappa said: So the God Learners thought. And the Gods rose up and destroyed them. What happens when you try to bring that water to Prax? In the Wastes, the spores of Chaos germinate and fester, the Devil's Marsh grows, and monstrous beings like Cwim and Thed are drawn to the area. And then Storm Bull is forced to scour it away with his hot, dry breath and clouds of stinging sand. Or perhaps you've simply summoned Orlanth's clouds farther, and then Storm Bull simply gets angry at Orlanth's incursion into his domain and summons his raging winds to push Orlanth back where he belongs. Tuts and checks his list of glorantha tourist destinations and draws a charcol lines through Plains of Prax " too sandy!" hrrrmmmrph 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soltakss Posted September 21 Share Posted September 21 On 9/19/2024 at 1:57 AM, John Biles said: There are no roads from Sartar to Pavis. Except for the road between Sartar and Pavis. Quote Simon Phipp - Caldmore Chameleon - Wallowing in my elitism since 1982. Many Systems, One Family. Just a fanboy. www.soltakss.com/index.html Jonstown Compendium author. Find my contributions here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Biles Posted September 21 Share Posted September 21 1 hour ago, soltakss said: Except for the road between Sartar and Pavis. There is no such road in the Argan Argar Atlas or the maps in the Guide to Glorantha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted September 21 Share Posted September 21 30 minutes ago, John Biles said: There is no such road in the Argan Argar Atlas or the maps in the Guide to Glorantha. There's hardly any roads in the AAA, even ones we definitely know exist like the Royal Roads. The Pavis Road exists on the master maps that Jeff sometimes posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diadochoi Posted September 21 Share Posted September 21 (edited) Pavis road is marked on the map on p188 of the Guide to Glorantha and is marked on the map found on the back of book 2 of the starter set (and equivalent) Edit: and in the maps in Pavis & the Big Rubble, Pavis Gateway to Adventure and the River of Cradles map Edited September 21 by Diadochoi Added other examples 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 Outside of Sartar, what constitutes a road may be a broad ridgeline of comparatively navigable terrain. One such "road" is the Ochsenweg or Heerweg through the middle of Schleswig-Holstein, following a stretch of older morrains and sand fans from the more recent glaciation. Apart from where it crossed the Danewerk (which had a toll gate), this road was up to a kilometer wide and allowed travelers to meander around mudholes and similar obstacles createdby previous use by carts, beasts and possibly marching troops. In modern times, the A7 roughly follows this route. I have visited a site in Bavaria where Bronze Age to medieval overland traffic has carved several parallel gullies into an outlying (now forested) flank of a hill avoiding a stretch of wetland beyond. The Pavis road is a route through a comparatively fertile part of northern Prax, making use of the Better Place (which offers somewhat reliable grazing even for horses) and avoiding the Sleeping City at the foot of Tada's tumulus. It crosses one seasonal river where maps indicate an ancient bridge - possibly from the EWF period. Such a bridge would be a choke point, too. With the availability of Praxian herd beasts as mounts and possibly draught animals, I wonder why the assumption is that it would be used by ox carts and horses? Mules for religious reasons, ok - it took a series of disastrous events and a marriage for Biturian Varosh to adopt bisons for his train. But the Lunar cavalry corps ought to have trains of Kostaddic sable antelopes which can cope with a lot less water in the plains than oxen, horses or mules. 1 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiný Posted September 22 Author Share Posted September 22 5 hours ago, Joerg said: The Pavis road is a route through a comparatively fertile part of northern Prax, making use of the Better Place (which offers somewhat reliable grazing even for horses) and avoiding the Sleeping City at the foot of Tada's tumulus. It crosses one seasonal river where maps indicate an ancient bridge - possibly from the EWF period. Such a bridge would be a choke point, too. We have been over this point before but its "a seasonal river" ,therefore it has water in it sometimes and thus its a "River". Water which could be used by wagon caravans or mule trains , This would mean there would have to be at least 1 or maybe 2 seasons a year when water and maybe grass was available thus these times would be the peak rush hour traffic for any movement from Pavis towards Sartar /Sartar to Pavis Mule drawn wagons are very, very effective as opposed to pack mules..plus they are NOT horses in the eyes of the praxians, the gods joke or mistake would be their view , jokes around the fireplace "and then the mule turns to the high lama and says ..." 😆 Mules can pull a wagon at sustained speeds of about 4.5 miles per hour—you can easily make 25 to 30 miles a day. (less on rough ground of course) ....four or six mules could carry more in a wagon than they could individually on their backs with the current pack system. The average wagon load was a ton to a ton and a half as compared to only two hundred to two hundred and fifty pounds on a pack. As Joerg said these trails or roads would be wide ..anyway from 100 meters to 300 meters going in the general direction and having choke points due to geographical or cultural reasons (holy places , Burial sites , chaos nests etc ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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