The Strengths of BRP

[Claybor]

I have long been a proponent of advantage/disadvantage systems and this have not really embraced BRP or any of its derivatives in the past, but I slowly coming to the conclusion that such systems can become very unbalanced pretty quickly, and balance is one of my main pet peeves in gaming. I am going to give BRP a fair shake in the near future.

[jp42]

I've wondered how hard it would be to adapt a rudimentary advantage/disadvantage system for BRP - something that involved a trade-off of points for characteristics or skills.

[seneschal]

You already have one ... the Failings section of the Super Powers chapter.

[Mankcam]

I think that an Advantage/Disadvantage system works well for a Pulp setting, but I don't think it is necessary for a gritty setting and it does get a bit mini-maxing during character generation if used in all settings. I think Pulp works because you can get a lot of flavour from naming an Advantage to suit the feel you are after.

I think core BRP is designed for gritty settings, and here the skill system works fine on its own, and the characters shouldn't have any particular Advantages for these settings. In some ways I prefer BRP because it feels 'cleaner' without a system like Advantages/Disadvantages.

I've wondered how hard it would be to adapt a rudimentary advantage/disadvantage system for BRP - something that involved a trade-off of points for characteristics or skills.

If you have GURPS then it wouldn't be hard to use that as a resource and translate it into BRP terms I think.

You already have one ... the Failings section of the Super Powers chapter.

Yep, I have done this. I used Super Powers to emulate Extraordinary Abilities for my Pulp BRP setting, all you do is ensure that the power has 'mundane' trappings, provide a more suitable name for the Power, and Bobs your uncle. The Character Point Budget allocation I used was equal to 1/2 CHA. For a less pulpy game you could always go equal to 1/5 CHA I suppose.

Obviously if the Power cannot be explained in a mundane, albeit extraordinary way then I wouldn't allow it otherwise you'll simply be playing a low level Supers game instead. Same goes for the Failings, they need to be plausible for the mundane setting rather than something that could only occur in a SuperHeroes setting. In some cases if the Ability cannot be explained in a mundane way I still allowed that power, although it needed to be in a Gadget rather than an actual ability of the character - eg: a character could choose the Flight power, but would need to have a Rocketeer-like Jetpack in order to do so, for example.

If there isn't a SuperPower available, then just look at the other Power systems in the BGB and use the mechanics accordingly. For example, I used the old RQ spell 'Demoralize' and retitled it 'Steely Gaze', and stated that the character must make a social roll (ie Fast Talk, Persuade,etc) in order to use the ability. In combat, if the character had the initiative then it could be used in the first melee round to offset opponents, but no later in the melee as it is not an actual spell like in RQ. It certainly came in handy for alot of social scenes for the character as well. Alot of Abilities can be modeled from Powers, from memory I think I retitled 'Extra Hit Points' as "Toughness', and Super Sense (Vision) as 'Eagle Eyes', 'Super Skill: Firearms' as 'Trickshot' etc.

The recent Pulp setting book 'Astounding Adventures' does have a 'Disadvantage' system called 'Catches'. I won't go into it too much as it is only a recent release and its not fair to give out trade secrets, but it appears pretty good as well. Kinda along the lines of what you would expect for the setting, I'm glad it was included.

So there are certainly a few options

Edited July 28, 2013 by Mankcam

[jp42]

You already have one ... the Failings section of the Super Powers chapter.

You know, I've never played a supers game with BRP. I tend to bolt back on the Basic Magic rules from RQIII, but haven't used much of the Powers chapter. I'll have to give a look.

[Gollum]

I've wondered how hard it would be to adapt a rudimentary advantage/disadvantage system for BRP - something that involved a trade-off of points for characteristics or skills.

It has been done. In Cthulhu by Gaslight.

Advantages and disadvantages are "Traits" that give bonuses or penalties during the character generation or during the game.

Examples:

~ Born Leader: +1D2 POW, +INTx5 points to Communication skills.

~ Alcoholic (D): -1 CON; -1 from STR, DEX, POW or APP; roll Sanity to avoid getting intoxicated if given the opportunity; insanity may lead to seek intoxication.

The player roll dice to know which advantage or disadvantage his character has, exactly as he rolls dice to know his characteristics, but it is easy to house rule something like...

• Choose one disadvantage for each advantage you take.
  
• Or each advantage cost one point to a characteristic while each disadvantage allows you to add one point to a characteristic.
  
• Or anything like that.
  

[Gollum]

I think that an Advantage/Disadvantage system works well for a Pulp setting, but I don't think it is necessary for a gritty setting and it does get a bit mini-maxing during character generation if used in all settings.

I fully do agree.

Some advantages and disadvantages may perfectly correspond to a gritty setting because they are realistic (alcoholism, knack for languages, shyness, fear of height, musical talent, arachnophobia, unusual flexibility...). We all know people who have such traits and novel or movie heroes also have some of them (which even makes them more "real").

But there is no need to have a balanced and complete system to play these traits. It can often be reduced to a mere description of characteristics and skills.

Example

Lord Medwing has Anthropology 75%, Mathematics 68%, Astronomy 86%, Philosophy 72% but Intelligence 8. How to explain that? Simple. He became alcoholic and lost a lot of his judgement abilities.

And for traits that cannot be reduced to a simple description of characteristics and skills, house ruling can solve the problem very easily.

Example

You really want to be ambidextrous? Fine. It will cost you one point in Dexterity.

[SDLeary]

You already have one ... the Failings section of the Super Powers chapter.

And, you can find a slightly more extensive one if you get he SuperWorld PDF.

SDLeary

[jp42]

I suspect I would want a little finer-grained system than most that have been proposed. A little more Hero/GURPS-y, honestly. But that's me - always a quest for greater detail.

[Gollum]

I suspect I would want a little finer-grained system than most that have been proposed. A little more Hero/GURPS-y, honestly. But that's me - always a quest for greater detail.

Cthulhu by Gaslightt is the closer that you can find, then. Add to it the different powers of the big golden book and you will have what you are looking for, with very little work to do by yourself.

[soltakss]

You know, I've never played a supers game with BRP. I tend to bolt back on the Basic Magic rules from RQIII, but haven't used much of the Powers chapter. I'll have to give a look.

I'd use HeroQuest for supers over BRP any day.

[Kairos]

Some BRP supplements have advantage/disadvantage-ish steps in character generation instead of Personality traits. Aces High and Mythic Iceland immediately spring to mind.

[SDLeary]

It has been done. In Cthulhu by Gaslight.

Advantages and disadvantages are "Traits" that give bonuses or penalties during the character generation or during the game.

Examples:

~ Born Leader: +1D2 POW, +INTx5 points to Communication skills.

~ Alcoholic (D): -1 CON; -1 from STR, DEX, POW or APP; roll Sanity to avoid getting intoxicated if given the opportunity; insanity may lead to seek intoxication.

The player roll dice to know which advantage or disadvantage his character has, exactly as he rolls dice to know his characteristics, but it is easy to house rule something like...

• Choose one disadvantage for each advantage you take.
  
• Or each advantage cost one point to a characteristic while each disadvantage allows you to add one point to a characteristic.
  
• Or anything like that.
  

WOW! I totally overlooked this. Must have thought... "OH GOD... multi-page table.... skip."

SDLeary

[CelestialFury]

You could also use the Super Powers system presented in the core BRP book as a templete for an Advantage/Disadvantage system. Depending on the setting you may have to tone some stuff down, but you'd most certainly have to expand on it regardless.

[g33k]

I too really like advantage/disadvantage systems for how they can help differentiate characters. Homogeneity (particularly at higher levels, as beaucoup skill-checks have raised even rarely-used skills to high levels, and rendered the Brawling Fighter very stealthy, the Wiry Thief into a deadly fighter, etc) is a bane of BRP, I think; so Adv/Disadv mechanics could be a welcome palliative. Also, more hooks for characterisation/RP, character-building/backstory, etc... these are all welcome, and these systems excel in such efforts.

HOWEVER, I am reluctant to delve into this area because of playbalance issues, increased chargen-time, abuse by MinMax'ers, bloat/creep, and other points (as raised across this thread).

That said, I've got some ideas percolating for a BRP campaign, and (if the brew ever gets served (likely a year or more)) might consult some of the mechanics referenced above to create a small-ish system of Adv/Disadv available at chargen... so, thanks all for the discussion!

[Simlasa]

I too really like advantage/disadvantage systems for how they can help differentiate characters.

I dunno... beyond the basics, characteristics and skills, all the differentiation I need comes out in play, the emergent personality based on the players, not the mechanics.

If I want to play a drunkard I'll just do it. I don't need a gift certificate for more POW for doing so.

Dunno why, but the urge some folks have to add ads/disads to BRP always strikes me as 'gilding the lily'.

I like GURPS fine but the ads/disads always seem like such a clog during character generation and brings out the min/max even in people who don't normally go there... and a lot of the time the disads never seem to come up in play... the same for Savage Worlds.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Simlasa

[seneschal]

Advantages/Disadvantages in Champions (1981) were originally intended to encourage genre emulation in a game where characters had Powers and Abilities Far Beyond Those of Mortal Men. Having a love interest or feeble relative to protect or a sworn enemy to avoid or a fatal allergy to Whatzitnite was designed to provide plot hooks, which the GM was supposed to employ regularly in the campaign. The bonus for taking a weakness was never intended to be "free" build points. Hero Games kept this structure when it moved into other genres, such as espionage and pulp adventure, stories where a character having an unusual edge (the assassin Jaws, super strong and smart Doc Savage) still made sense.

In RuneQuest, Call of Cthulhu, and many other BRP games, this sort of thing doesn't fit the genre and isn't necessary. On the other hand, if you're delving into rip-roaring pulp adventure, super spy gimmicks, or superheroics, it might be more useful. Regardless of game system, though, the GM is expected to use weaknesses/failings/disadvantages on a regular basis -- not to be a jerk but to enforce the genre. Not too hard if you've got a small group of players but tougher if you've got six or eight, since it becomes more difficult to squeeze all those character-specific problems into a single adventure (the task would be easier in a longer campaign). One way around this is to build adventures around the heroes' weaknesses: the vengeful ex-wife mutant shows up, the one-of-a-kind weapon or gadget falls into The Wrong Hands, the recovering alcoholic runs into an Oktoberfest parade while chasing the Big Bad, a homeless guy steals the super suit off the clothesline.

[fmitchell]

The bonus for taking a weakness was never intended to be "free" build points.

Yet that's how most GMs and players treated them, when I played Champions back in the day. One GM I knew discarded them all together. That even the rules set an upper limit was kind of telling. One guy perusing the GURPS rules at the time looked at the disadvantages and said "Wow, these are real disadvantages" because the rules spelled out actual consequences. (Another player of my acquaintance considered that a failing of GURPS that it enumerated all possible Psych Lims ...)

In any case, my current thinking is that Aspects in FATE, Complications in Mutants and Masterminds, and Foibles in Swashbuckers of the Seven Skies are the way to go. That is, benefits for limitations accrue through a Fate/Fortune/Hero/Drama/whatever Point economy, rather than build points up front. The reward for the player's self-imposed "kick me" sign is then directly proportional to the number of times the GM actually kicks him.

Bringing this around to the topic of this forum, I suspect it's easier to integrate Complications (and Aspects, to be honest) into BRP, simply because it's a self-contained system. Want a talent outside the Characteristic/Skill/Spell paradigm? Screwed by the Dice Gods? Need to cheat death? Pay Drama Points. Need more Drama Points? Take on extra trouble, and chew the scenery a bit. It's not appropriate for every genre, play style, or group, but it's easy to try, and just as easy to ditch if it's not working.

[Mankcam]

Yeah, the way Aspects work in FATE is the best I've seen, and if any Advantage/Disadvantage system is ported to BRP then this is a great innovation to go with.

Personally I like to keep the two systems separate, just changing the Magic Powers trappings for BRP Powers to emulate 'Feats' in a Pulp Setting, using the Failings system for SuperPowers if required.

But if you are only ever running one system, then porting FATE aspects to BRP is one of the best ideas to run with

[sladethesniper]

Personally, the best aspect of BRP is the simple mechanics of the system. While there are some things that come up in gaming that are not well covered by BRP, it is extremely easy to extrapolate from the basic rules which leads to a fast paced, exciting game session, which is kind of the point. As a combat heavy simulation, BRP is not the game to go to...nor does it do magic/psionics/powers especially well...BUT, BRP is also so easy to import things from other systems into it, that it is like the universal recipient of gaming systems.

So, simplicity and "import-ability" of other game systems are the strengths of BRP in my opinion.

Something else, a bit niche perhaps but... In BRP you can take something you see on TV, a novel, a computer game and make it in BRP and use it in your game. With other games you have to wonder about this power, that skill, random ability X and Y and how many HP it has or whether a particular class or build or ability meets with the requirements laid down in some book... BRP does NOT have this problem. You can easily translate from any source material into BRP and that is just one more strength for the system.

-STS

Edited August 25, 2013 by sladethesniper

[Robsbot]

I think this conversation alone shows some strengths of BRP as Slade has outlined. Want an advantage / disadvantage system? Bolt one on. Like something that someone else doesn't? There's optional rules for a reason. Make the game as simple or as complex as you want. That said, the general complexity of BRP, like Slade stated, is rather low. It all comes down to basically looking at your skill %'s and rolling dice. It's easy to GM this and keep the flow going.

One major selling point for me these days is the lack of Min-Maxing. I play with hardcore MMO / MOBA / Tabletop War Gaming players. They have a tendency to min-max as that's what the competitive environment requires. They sometimes have issues switching modes into fun, casual, role playing get-togethers with the guys. Since role-playing skills are just as important as combat ones, if I get a player who's more powerful in one aspect than the others I can tailor the game to include the other players more. For example, You have this insanely overpowered combat based PC using the Sorcery rules from BRB / Magic World who's stomping all over your encounters. Solution? Get the PC's into situations they can't use combat to get out of. Have them kidnapped and have to talk / negotiate their way out. Have them attacked with subtle magic and have to use research and connections to find and counter the source. All three options, combat, social, and research type challenges are equally fun and allow players to have niche skills they are good at that others aren't and with clever GMing allow for everyone to stay involved in the narrative.

I really feel the narrative aspect of BRP is its biggest strength. I always have those stories of the cool / crazy / impossible thing my PC's did that made the whole group die laughing, sit there stunned, or cheer at overcoming the obstacle. You never hear the awesome story about how your level 16 wizard used his encounter power to kill that rock elemental and get enough XP to get to level 17.

[Aelwyn]

One strength of BRP no one has mentioned is that the combat system pleasantly recreates things that actually happen in a swordfight.

I started RPGing back in the 70's, and I never understood D&D's Armor Class. It didn't make any sense to me that someone in full plate armor was harder to hit. Someone stumbling around in full plate should be easy to hit--but hard to kill. What did the Armor Class of a black pudding represent? Was it fast, slippery, rubbery, or hard? I had no idea...

I think FATE is a great system, and it encourages more narration than traditional RPGs, but it feels very abstract and not very realistic to me. My indie gaming friends would say, so what? Why do you want realism at the expense of narration? The answer is, I don't want realism at the expense of narration--I want both.

But BRP feels real to me. You swing your broadsword at someone--it's a good attack, but your opponent parries it with his shield. He counterattacks, and his blow slides under your parry. Fortunately, it's a glancing blow, slight damage--and your armor absorbs the blow. BRP has a mechanic that elegantly captures all of these events in a way that is very easy to understand, but doesn't force you to constantly consult a manual or a results table.

There are more granular systems that are more realistic but that sacrifice ease of play and narration. There are indie systems that are easier to play and emphasize narration, but they sacrifice a sense of realism and the feeling that the mechanic reflects what is actually happening in the game world. BRP for me is the happy medium between the two.

Disadvantage: It's easy to die in BRP, but you can mitigate that by setting up scenarios where the bad guys aren't actually trying to kill the good guys. Maybe the heavies are just trying to capture the PCs for interrogation, religious deprogramming, human sacrifice, imprisonment, or as a living food source for their young. That gives the characters an opportunity to lose a battle, be captured, escape, rescue their compatriots, turn the tables on their captors, and win in the end. Sound like a good plotline? I think so!

[RosenMcStern]

Why do you want realism at the expense of narration? The answer is, I don't want realism at the expense of narration--I want both.

Whoa, one should print out these words, encase them in a beautifully crafted frame and hang them to the wall.

Especially in these times when everyone is crazy about Dungeon World.

There are more granular systems that are more realistic but that sacrifice ease of play and narration. There are indie systems that are easier to play and emphasize narration, but they sacrifice a sense of realism and the feeling that the mechanic reflects what is actually happening in the game world. BRP for me is the happy medium between the two.

No comment needed.

[Mankcam]

Yo' preachin' to da converted, bruthas !

[MatteoN]

I seem to understand that the very popular Savage Worlds (which I never read nor played) occupies a similar niche to that BRP, although it tends more to the emulation of pulp fiction than to that of "realistic" fiction.