Rune Quests across the editions

[creativehum]

I was a latecomer to all things Glorantha, so there are things I'm still sorting out. Here is one question I have, which leads to further questions:

In RuneQuest the object is to adventure, be noticed, become a Rune Lord or Priest. From what I understand (which might be wrong), PCs did not start with Runes and gathered powers from the Gods with time and effort.

In HeroQuest: Glorantha, however, as well as Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes, the PCs start with Runes tattooed on the bodies which bestow magic upon them from the start of play (because the PCs revive them now for reaching adulthood)

Questions: 

1. Are the runes PCs start with in HQ:G the same runes that PCs once sought out in RQ? That is, do the PCs start with what they once had to work to get? Am I understanding this correctly?

2. If so, why was it changed?

3. How does this play out for people? What are the advantages and disadvantages for each method?

4. Does anyone using the HeroQuest rules and new source books utilize the rune quest logic of earlier editions?

Thanks!

[soltakss]

RuneQuest 2 said that Rune Priests tried to master the Magic Rune and Rune Lords the Mastery Rune, but that is as far as it went.

RuneQuest 3 pretty much ignored Runes, except where they concerned cults.

RuneQuest 4 (Mongoose RQI) had a Rune Chase that was a nice idea but didn't really work.

RuneQuest 5 (Mongoose RQII) ignored Runes.

RuneQuest 6 ignored Runes, I think.

The runes in HQ:G are new and very different from how Runes used to work.

In previous versions of RQ, you joined a cult and became loosely associated with the runes of the cult. They didn't really give you any benefits.

In HQ:G, there are fairly rigid rules about what runes you can have. I would be far more flexible as a GM.

However, all this is from a faded memory and is all in my opinion, so is most likely wrong.

[M Helsdon]

4 hours ago, creativehum said:

1. Are the runes PCs start with in HQ:G the same runes that PCs once sought out in RQ?

No, because runes weren't part of the character generation or development process in RQ1, RQ2 or RQ3.

4 hours ago, creativehum said:

That is, do the PCs start with what they once had to work to get? Am I understanding this correctly?

Two very different systems with very different mechanics.

Edited May 5, 2016 by M Helsdon

[creativehum]

Hi! And thanks for the replies.

i'm not sure of the above statements are true -- at least as they regard RuneQuest 2nd ed

In RQ 2nd once one becomes initiated one has access to runes and those runes give you access to specific magic. (At least that's what I saw when I read the rules this morning.)

I think Hero Wars stayed somewhat in line with this thinking. And it was with HQ 2 and the more recent sourcebooks that things changed to give the pcs the rune powers right out of the gate.

But I think I'm on track now to building what I want. (A mix of RQ2 and HW where pcs have to gain runes through work and initiation)

thank you for the replies!

[kaydet]

Have you looked at the design blogs for the new edition of Runequest?

If your goal is to create a version of RQ2 that incorporates the runes from the ground up, I would suggest reading through them to see if the new edition might interest you. It might, in fact, be exactly what you're looking for, as one of the major design goals is to include the runes as a more integral part of characters and gameplay.

I'm not saying you should give up on your homebrew, but the new stuff sounds like it might be exactly what you're looking for.

[creativehum]

Cool!

Can you point me toward the design blogs?

(And sadly I was busy with other matters last year (hit by a truck -- really) and completely missed the RQ Kickstarter)

[kaydet]

There are six in total so far, but here is a link to the first: Designing the New Runequest Part 1

The other five are all in the same place, and should be easy to find.

[lawrence.whitaker]

Quote

RuneQuest 5 (Mongoose RQII) ignored Runes.

No it didn't. Whole section on Runic Affinities and cults defined by their runes.

Quote

RuneQuest 6 ignored Runes, I think.

No it didn't; see above.

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, creativehum said:

1. Are the runes PCs start with in HQ:G the same runes that PCs once sought out in RQ? That is, do the PCs start with what they once had to work to get? Am I understanding this correctly?

2. If so, why was it changed?

3. How does this play out for people? What are the advantages and disadvantages for each method?

4. Does anyone using the HeroQuest rules and new source books utilize the rune quest logic of earlier editions?

1. The Runes themselves have not changed - they are the building blocks of Glorantha.  RQ (whether 2 or 3) really did not explore use of, or even getting runes (and it's important to understand that runes are not like magic objects or weapons - they are what compose everything much like everything in our world is built off of atoms and molecules).  PC's did join rune cults and the cults had runic associations, but there was nothing that truly utilized the runes.  HQ2/HQG incorporated the idea that you inherently have certain runes as part of your self, though from a Gloranthan perspective the concept has been around for a long time.

2. All current efforts, whether HQG, 13th Age, or RQ are incorporating the runes in ways that really make them part of the world and game experience - fulfilling the promise suggested in classic RQ, but never implemented then.

3. HQG provides the runes as keywords to shape your PC's character, personality, magics, and affinity to join certain cults.  They work very well in this regard.  I haven't really explored the use in 13th Age Glorantha yet.  As the Design Notes for the new RQ version indicate, runes finally play a role, both upfront in character design and in play as related to your cult associations, magics, etc.  It's a different style of play, but again offers ways to utilize runes.

4. There never was any content for classic RQ that centered on questing for runes.  They primarily served to define cults and cult affinities and that was about it.  I run a couple HQG campaigns and while we've never had a quest to specifically gain a rune (quite feasible, but no reason to do so yet), I've had two players/PCs who have had runes change in the midst of play based on in-game events. 

 

[creativehum]

A note:

On page 67 of RQ 2nd a section begins called Sample Cults. The examples are limited but the first is Orlanth. The description includes divine aid and magic gained from runes ruled by Orlanth. So I think at least RQ 2nd covered this subject to some degree.

While it is true the PCs didn't go hunting runes, the point of the game was to gather resources and power so they could join a cult and get access to the magic gained through the runes associated with that cult.

it's set up very much like Hero Wars -- though HW is much more thorough in the list of cults.

 

 

[creativehum]

By the way...

I understand that Glorantha is a place rich in magic--even made of magic. And that everyone having magic is just par for the course. However, after mulling all the material for some years now (and working backward from Hero Wars when I first picked it up), I think I want to slow down the magic and mix some mundane with it. I was just beginning to grok the world when all the more recent Glorantha stuff came out and blew up my growing understanding of the setting. But what I've realized is I really like my original understanding of the setting.

Here is my thinking on this:

1. Jumping into the deep waters of the current Runes Come with Character Creation seems to be deep waters indeed for players new to Glorantha. I'd rather they have some time to acclimate themselves to all the in-setting culture, myths, and more before they're worrying about committing to Gods and affinities and such.

2. I like the idea (per what I've read in RQ 2nd and Hero Wars) that the initiation into the cults is a Big Deal that the PCs earn. Yes, there are priests who know this stuff. That it is something to be earned helps with that. It also gives the Players time to sort out what sort of God they want to initiate into after they get a sense of both the world and their character.

3. I like the tension between the mundane and the magical. My instincts tell me that if everyone has this stuff (especially without effort) then it seems less magical. I like the idea of the Gods and the Runes and the Rites being a bit of a mystery and the Players (via their characters) coming to terms with understanding these thing, moving toward them, becoming part of the tales and myth as they come to understand the world through their adventures. The tension makes mundane life matter because it is mundane, and the mythical life matter because it is larger than life.

4. As a Referee I read the chapters on character creation and the use of magic and honestly, perhaps because I haven't been thinking about Glorantha for decades, it makes my head spin. Not because of the great sums of mythical material (that I can handle). But because it seems so chaotic and flying all over the place, with everyone casting so many spells in so many ways. I, too, need some time to get my feet wet. And I think something with a few more rules and limitations will allow me to find my way with both the game and the setting as I introduce both to the players.

I understans YGWV, so I'm not sweating any of this stuff. Nor am I trying to convince anyone of anything. Just explaining where this thread came from.

 

 

 

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

On page 67 of RQ 2nd a section begins called Sample Cults. The examples are limited but the first is Orlanth. The description includes divine aid and magic gained from runes ruled by Orlanth. So I think at least RQ 2nd covered this subject to some degree.

You'll find a generic "Runepower" as a placeholder in the list of rune spells (Classic version p. 65, original RQ2 p. 63) but it was never really developed in print beyond elemental summoning spells. Pity! Still, that may be corrected soon.

Edited May 6, 2016 by scott-martin
clarity

[SDLeary]

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

A note:

On page 67 of RQ 2nd a section begins called Sample Cults. The examples are limited but the first is Orlanth. The description includes divine aid and magic gained from runes ruled by Orlanth. So I think at least RQ 2nd covered this subject to some degree.

Yes and no. While this is stated, and while the statement is true for Glorantha, RQ2 really had no mechanical link other than the description of the gods and their associate runes. Possession/Knowledge of a rune was not required in the game to possess a gods magic, only an affiliation with the gods organization (initiation). This of course is implied, because there were tests to be accepted, etc.

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

While it is true the PCs didn't go hunting runes, the point of the game was to gather resources and power so they could join a cult and get access to the magic gained through the runes associated with that cult.

it's set up very much like Hero Wars -- though HW is much more thorough in the list of cults.

It was certainly the Meta aspect that was being shot for, but again the game really didn't support that kind of play by default. That level of integration wasn't achieved until HQ:G really, though I imagine that there were many games of HQ1 that did something like that.

SDLeary

[creativehum]

18 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

You'll find a generic "Runepower" as a placeholder in the list of rune spells (Classic version p. 65, original RQ2 p. 63) but it was never really developed in print beyond elemental summoning spells. Pity! Still, that may be corrected soon.

I must have a weird edition of the book. I'm looking at it right now and I see Orlanth Rune spells on page 69, Kyger Litor Rune spells on p. 72, and Black Fang Brotherhood Rune spells on 72. Note that I'm not claiming any kind of comprehensive list of rune magic (clearly not). But it does seem to be there.

18 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Possession/Knowledge of a rune was not required in the game to possess a gods magic, only an affiliation with the gods organization (initiation). This of course is implied, because there were tests to be accepted, etc.

It was certainly the Meta aspect that was being shot for, but again the game really didn't support that kind of play by default. That level of integration wasn't achieved until HQ:G really, though I imagine that there were many games of HQ1 that did something like that.

SDLeary

Can you tell me more about this? I ask because Hero Wars certainly seemed to go into great detail about what Affinities and Feats were available to initiates. I had assumed that to become an initiate of a God was to learn a rune... but perhaps I was wrong about that. 

Not challenging you. Honestly curious. (Again, each edition lays out different bits of knowledge and ways of expression all things rune!)

[SDLeary]

43 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I must have a weird edition of the book. I'm looking at it right now and I see Orlanth Rune spells on page 69, Kyger Litor Rune spells on p. 72, and Black Fang Brotherhood Rune spells on 72. Note that I'm not claiming any kind of comprehensive list of rune magic (clearly not). But it does seem to be there.

Can you tell me more about this? I ask because Hero Wars certainly seemed to go into great detail about what Affinities and Feats were available to initiates. I had assumed that to become an initiate of a God was to learn a rune... but perhaps I was wrong about that. 

Not challenging you. Honestly curious. (Again, each edition lays out different bits of knowledge and ways of expression all things rune!)

Lets go back to your RQ2 book and look at the various requirements within the cult; Initiate Membership, RuneLord Membership, RunePriest Membership... None of them mention the need at the game level to understand or possess the power of a particular rune. Going a bit further, if you look at the Special Cult Rune Spells, none of them mention that rune knowledge is required. Again, such knowledge is somewhat implied, but not mechanically supported by the game.

HeroWars did expand on this iirc, but I have the books in storage, so can't check to see how.

Glancing back thru HQ1, everything is still couched in terms of culture and community. Affinities, Feats, magic in general has no runic affiliation other than that presented thru the controlling deity. There is a two page section just before the index that talks about Runes, and what they are associated with, but with no rules tie-in to say how to use them in a game.

HQ:G on the other hand, has runic associations defined for the character during creation, and those define your personality and sources of magical power. 

SDLeary

[creativehum]

I just checked the HW book. Each god is listed separately, and under each god the god's Affinities are separated into groups with the icon of the group's respective Rune icon. (Feats have no Rune associated with them.)

I haven't compared the lists of Feats and Runes in HW:G and no idea if the affinities and runes match the lists in HW:G.

I'll add that there is a solid description of the Runes in the HW book. But it is of course not as detailed as in the later HQ:G books. 

It may be that I'm reading RQ2 with an unfair hindsight. But while you are correct that acts of initiation are not spelled out, the matter isn't obscure. It seems to me to be a matter of a) the player gathering resources to make his best bid for success into the cult; and  the having NPCs offer the opportunity to the PCs.

While I appreciate that HQ:G nails this all down concretely in character creation, for reasons stated above I am intrigued with holding that off and making the learning of the mysteries of the runes being something earned through play. 

[Oracle]

1 hour ago, creativehum said:

...

It may be that I'm reading RQ2 with an unfair hindsight. But while you are correct that acts of initiation are not spelled out, the matter isn't obscure. It seems to me to be a matter of a) the player gathering resources to make his best bid for success into the cult; and  the having NPCs offer the opportunity to the PCs.

While I appreciate that HQ:G nails this all down concretely in character creation, for reasons stated above I am intrigued with holding that off and making the learning of the mysteries of the runes being something earned through play. 

In fact from my point of view HeroQuest:Glorantha is supporting this approach the same way as Runequest does. My understanding is, that a character get his Rune associations (called Rune Affinities) with his initiation as a grown-up, i.e. he learns which God is his patron from now on. This is, what is simulated with the Rune keyword assignments during the Character creation in HeroQuest:Glorantha.

This is similar to catholic or protestant confirmation rituals (using a real world example for clarification). You are now a fully accepted member of your religious community (called a cult in Glorantha). You are now allowed to participate in all the rituals of your religion/cult. You are even able to use some of the magic your God provides (in the form of breakout abilities to your runes).

But you are far from really understanding the mysteries of your Runes and your Cult. You still have to learn a lot before you are able to make the next step of becoming an Initiate of your God. Only now you are able to use all the Power of your Rune(s) freely. And still you have to learn a lot more about the mysteries of your Runes, before you are able to become a Devotee, which is truly able to act like his God by using the Feats provided by his/her Cult.

Granted, the character creation process of HeroQuest:Glorantha allows to skip this process by becoming an Initiate or a Devotee from the beginning. But you don't have to do it that way. Depending on the type of game your Gamemaster wants to play, you could also start your Character on a lower level, which still has to make his way to becoming an Initiate.

And as far as I know and was already mentioned, HeroQuest:Glorantha was the first system using Runes as integral part of the game mechanics.

[Martin]

I would say..think of it more like this....

The World is Made of Everything

Humans are part of the world

Humans are made of Everything

So...

Runes are not something you acquire or collect as "things"....rather they are symbolic of what is inside you as a hero....these are the magics and characteristics you manifest as you adventure and become more like your god....yes you can tattoo them on your body or marked them on objects but it what is inside you that matters.....

this is why people that are strong in a partuclar runes devote themselves to a certain religion or why some are tempestuous or calm or brave or reckless or have blue eyes or are sickly etc etc...it is the various parts of their soul manifesting

Edited May 6, 2016 by Martin

[soltakss]

11 hours ago, creativehum said:

Hi! And thanks for the replies.

i'm not sure of the above statements are true -- at least as they regard RuneQuest 2nd ed

In RQ 2nd once one becomes initiated one has access to runes and those runes give you access to specific magic. (At least that's what I saw when I read the rules this morning.)

 

Are you looking at Mongoose's Second Edition? If so, that is RQ5. If it has Legendary Abilities of Combat Manoeuvres then it is RQ5 not RQ2.

 

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, lawrence.whitaker said:

No it didn't. Whole section on Runic Affinities and cults defined by their runes.

No it didn't; see above.

OK, thanks, it has been a long time since I read RQ5/RQ6.

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, creativehum said:

I must have a weird edition of the book. I'm looking at it right now and I see Orlanth Rune spells on page 69, Kyger Litor Rune spells on p. 72, and Black Fang Brotherhood Rune spells on 72. Note that I'm not claiming any kind of comprehensive list of rune magic (clearly not). But it does seem to be there.

In RQ2, cults have runes and deities grant runemagic, but the magic they grant are not always rune-based.

 

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, creativehum said:

I must have a weird edition of the book. I'm looking at it right now and I see Orlanth Rune spells on page 69, Kyger Litor Rune spells on p. 72, and Black Fang Brotherhood Rune spells on 72. Note that I'm not claiming any kind of comprehensive list of rune magic (clearly not). But it does seem to be there.

Yes, those were specific examples of the generic "Runepower" rune magic spells.  And those were expanded on with Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror in RQ2, and later with Gods of Glorantha in RQ3.  HW/HQ1 continued this, though rather over-splintered/fragmented into lots of little gods.  HQG has returned more to the roots from RQ2.

Reading back through your posts, my sense is that you'd like to play through more of the initial character development and growth as in this comment: 

Quote

While I appreciate that HQ:G nails this all down concretely in character creation, for reasons stated above I am intrigued with holding that off and making the learning of the mysteries of the runes being something earned through play.

So, yes, RQ2 pretty much started you out assuming that you had reached adulthood (in HQG terms, you would have awoken your runes at that point), but not yet joined a cult.  It did little to develop the community you started with - one aspect of the Old School Gaming where you start off as an adventurer out to see the world.

HQG's character generation assumes you've passed initiation into a cult.  It also assumes you're part of the community that you grew up in whether in a Sartar clan, a neighborhood of New Pavis, etc. 

However, there's nothing in HQG to keep you from starting earlier.  HQ2 offered several variants in character generation, only one of which was explicitly used in HQG, that would readily allow you to create less advanced characters.

And if you want to run the coming of age story to define your runes, that's fully possibly in HQG.  Just leave out the Rune keywords!  Begin them with initiation into the community to help them identify at least their Elemental rune.  If you're playing in Sartar (or Pavis), best place to start for that opening quest is here: Prince of Sartar: the Uncles.  Pages 2-6 outline the initiation for boys to become men.  Ernalda's initiation for girls to become women is elsewhere. 

The Elemental affinity will align them to likely cults they then may want to join.  As most cults hold initiations at most once a year, sometimes every other year, your characters may have some time to wait, as well as proving themselves ready.  Perhaps these adventures reveal their final runes?

[creativehum]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Yes, those were specific examples of the generic "Runepower" rune magic spells.  And those were expanded on with Cults of Prax and Cults of Terror in RQ2, and later with Gods of Glorantha in RQ3.  HW/HQ1 continued this, though rather over-splintered/fragmented into lots of little gods.  HQG has returned more to the roots from RQ2.

I find this fascinating. I haven't read any other RQ books but the core rulebook (so I have not ready Cults of Prax an Cults of Terror). And you're saying that the list of gods in the core Hero Wars rulebook (which was the first Glorantha book I ever read) has more gods than were listed in the RQ product line? This makes sense, I guess, as there were many gods! Even more when you add in Thunder Rebels! (That's why, when I cracked open HQG, my reaction was, "Wow, this book is light on gods!")

But one of my concerns is overwhelming players with too many choices and too much to do out of the gate. 

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

However, there's nothing in HQG to keep you from starting earlier...

And if you want to run the coming of age story to define your runes, that's fully possibly in HQG.  Just leave out the Rune keywords!  Begin them with initiation into the community to help them identify at least their Elemental rune.  If you're playing in Sartar (or Pavis), best place to start for that opening quest is here: Prince of Sartar: the Uncles.  Pages 2-6 outline the initiation for boys to become men.  Ernalda's initiation for girls to become women is elsewhere. 

As a big fan of King Arthur Pendragon going years back, I always found that first session of getting knighted on the first adventure a big deal for the Players. It drew them into the world and made them feel as they were part of the culture and events through their own action and experience.

And, as you note, the HQG rules explicitly state that starting before initiation is possible. 

I have found that some players don't know their character right away, and need a session or two to find out who they are and how they relate to the people and the world around them. I'd be inclined to do the "create-as-you-go" for their Rune temperaments through the choice of Rune Keywords as play occurs.

Finally, with the concerns of "too many choices" in mind (my concern, maybe the concern of no one else!), one of the things I liked about HW was the use of lists for the Affinities. While I love (love) HQ's flexible nature to handle any inputs and creative possibilities for conflict and action taken on the part of the Players via their characters, there's something to be said for structure and limits. The lists of affinities in HW are a clear list that say, "Here are the kinds of things that are associated with this god. This god is like this, and grants this kind of magic." Thus, the Players can see clearly the potential of a god's affinities and the nature of the god itself. 

They might be considered training wheels at first, with a looser set of interpretations based on them later. But I do think, for a group new to Glotrantha, such limitations are helpful.

Edited May 6, 2016 by creativehum

[g33k]

As far as the ubiquity of magic goes:  make sure you take note of the sharp difference between "common" or "battle" magic (available to almost anyone and learnable more-or-less at will) versus "Rune" magic (only available via Cults, shamans, etc from the gods and/or greater spirits).  Ordinary housewives might know "common" spells (e.g. mending, fire-starting, cleaning, etc); shepherds or hunters might know a bit of tracking magic and/or beast-speech spells; soldiers may know "Befuddle" and "Bladesharp" and similar combat spells.  But the greater magics (that can change the course of a battle, shape the world, cross from this world into the Spirit realms, etc) are strictly Rune magic... and the simpler spells do not just progress upward to Rune Spells!

While there was the idea (in RQ2) that adventuring as an Initiate (and higher) would include (increasing amounts of) Heroquesting and Runequesting, and that this could gain one Runic "affinities" and even eventually let one "possess" a Rune, I don't recall any RULES for this.  I think GM's were expected to "wing it" if that happened in their games...  I have heard that Greg Stafford worked on the problem of "Rune" rules for quite a while, without getting anything he was happy with.

 

Edited May 6, 2016 by g33k
clarified version

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, creativehum said:

HW was the use of lists for the Affinities

They're really still there in HQG, just not in a table format.

The affinity is simply the rune used to approach the god.  E.g. Argan Argar in HQ1 had 3 affinities (Exchange with Others, Son of Darkness, Husband-Protector), the first being the Issaries/Exchange rune and the other two being Darkness rune.  In HQ2/HQG, if you place your Initiate of Argan Argar under your Issaries/Exchange rune, you effectively have the first affinity; if under your Darkness rune, you effectively have the latter two (or could state more explicitly if desired).  In SKoH or Sartar Companion, they are still noted as affinities.  In HQG, they are just listed as the god's Runes but Rune or (Rune) Affinity are effectively the same.

The magics you can easily get are based on that choice.  In HQ1, Husband-Protector lists these feats: Befriend Uz, Hide Wealth, Overcome Rival, Protect Earth, Sheltering Shade.

In SartarCompanion, you get "An incomplete list of the abilities his cultists have been known to use the Darkness Rune for includes: halt trolls; placate trolls; dismiss dehori; stop anything born of the Underworld; take Darkness form; walk unseen and unheard in darkness and shadows; create pools of shadows; extinguish light; command and summon beings of Darkness;"...

If you want to keep player choices minimized or channeled, it's easier to go with the short list.  But if you really want to reflect some aspects of what the god can really do (and by reflection what the character could do), then the incomplete list gives you a lot more room for development.