Borderlands and Beyond: You want me to work for a Lunar?

[Corvantir]

I want to introduce a bunch of experienced players to Glorantha. Most of them are new to the setting and a few of them only have some vague reminiscences of some RQ3 sessions with another GM a long time ago.

I want a community to be involved as there will be two or three core players while the other places at the table will be filled by whoever is available and interested at the moment. The campaign thus needs to be episodic so that a player can eventually come out at the end of a session and be replaced by another the next one.

The Colymar campaign, Sartar Rising or Borderlands & Beyond, with its band of mercenaries, seem to be the best options. I am not thrilled by the Griffin Mountain area, may be later...

But though I must admit I have a soft spot for the River of Cradles area, I also have a problem with the Borderlands and Beyond campaign. There are a lot of chances that most of the characters will worship deities or be from cultural backgrounds that consider the Lunars as being evil because they consort with Chaos or have invaded their homeland, if not both. Though he has been disgraced and though he does not worship the Seven Mothers, Duke Raus of Rone remains a Lunar trying to take a foothold in the Lunar Grantlands. If I were playing a Sartarite exile or a Praxian, I would refuse to work for a Lunar and help building a Lunar settlement. Why would my character work for a Lunar?

Are some of you also considering this as a problem? Or on the contrary do you consider this isn't a problem at all? Did you need to convince some of your players that it was acceptable to work for a Lunar? I am interested in your opinions and experiences.  

Edited June 26, 2016 by Corvantir

[rust]

Mercenaries usually go where the money is, they rarely are too much influenced by their religious or national roots to take a good job offer. 

A non-Gloranthan example could perhaps be the Thirty Years War, a war fought over religion as well as over national interests. However, the mercenaries almost always joined the force which currently paid best, no matter which religion or nation that force fought for, and they did not hesitate to change their allegiance when a better opportunity presented itself, fighting one day for the catholic Spaniards and a month later for the protestant Swedes.

Edited June 26, 2016 by rust

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, Corvantir said:

Why would my character work for a Lunar?

Life is hard in exile in Pavis even for those from Sartar.  Old clan feuds live on and who says your clan had good relations with those who've previously come east.  You've got family to support and no connections.  Duke Raus is also an exile and is offering good plots of land for those who work for him - hard life, yes, but a chance for your family and it beats starving or seeing your children starve.

Or perhaps you're from one of the Elmali clans of the Far Point, largely destroyed from Harvar Ironfist seized control of Alda-Chur with his Yelmalions.  Now your in Pavis and the Yelmalions here give you a hard time too.  Life under Duke Raus may not be so bad after all.

[Noita]

He's hardly a Lunar poster boy, having been exiled and worships an ancestor cult. 

You could even make him an Orlanthi chieftain from the empire, to important to martyr and exiled instead.

Or

Your players could go there intent on taking over the grant from within.

Sometimes exiles (Sartarites) just need to work to survive. Pay is Pay.

Where better to hide when plotting the Empire's demise...

[Zit]

They can be slaves as well, and earn their liberty. Slave elite warriors have been common in the history, as well as ministers and conceilors. Earning their freeing can be a good motivation. I had my player start in Sartar and been sentenced to slavery for a few years only (after a well targetted bribery from one of the players) and bought at Pimper's block by Daine. They worked for the Duke as warriors or administrators, some managed to shorten their slavery time. When again free, they already had made their life in the Raus county.

[Khedrac]

Point out to them that he has been exiled and dishonoured by the Lunars.  Perhaps they can show him the superiority of Orlanthi ways - and get him to convert!

[soltakss]

10 hours ago, Corvantir said:

But though I must admit I have a soft spot for the River of Cradles area, I also have a problem with the Borderlands and Beyond campaign. There are a lot of chances that most of the characters will worship deities or be from cultural backgrounds that consider the Lunars as being evil because they consort with Chaos or have invaded their homeland, if not both. Though he has been disgraced and though he does not worship the Seven Mothers, Duke Raus of Rone remains a Lunar trying to take a foothold in the Lunar Grantlands. If I were playing a Sartarite exile or a Praxian, I would refuse to work for a Lunar and help building a Lunar settlement. Why would my character work for a Lunar?

Are some of you also considering this as a problem? Or on the contrary do you consider this isn't a problem at all? Did you need to convince some of your players that it was acceptable to work for a Lunar? I am interested in your opinions and experiences.  

 

That is the whole point of the original Borderlands Campaign - Working for someone you don't like.

Admittedly, Duke Raus is a pretty odd Lunar, he worships his ancestors and doesn't really have any strong Lunar opinions. His head of guards is a Humakti not a Yanafali and the Seven Mothers don't really play an important part.

Some of the conflict inherent in the campaign is working for Lunars, other conflict includes deciding which side to back in the diplomatic scenarios.

[Corvantir]

 

Thank you very much for your answers, they are good food for thought.

The point is I would prefer my character to die rather than work for a Lunar if I were playing a Sartarite exile or a Praxian... Money would not be a good incentive for me, but my reaction is only mine and does not mean my players would react the same way.

The analogy of the Thirty years war is interesting, thank you for reminding me of that. But isn't the Lunar/Chaos association supposed to be the big scarecrow? I know that the Duke isn't a typical Lunar character, but he is a still a Lunar for many.

I thought about young yelmalions, perhaps from the Sun County, but not about Elmali. At first glance I would say they would react like Orlanthi but it deserves a second thought.

I must admit that the underground or spying mission is something I haven't considered before. Sent there to watch what the Lunar are up to in the area... and working for someone you don't like.  

Food for thought I told you, thank you.

 

14 hours ago, Zit said:

They can be slaves as well, and earn their liberty. Slave elite warriors have been common in the history, as well as ministers and conceilors. Earning their freeing can be a good motivation. I had my player start in Sartar and been sentenced to slavery for a few years only (after a well targetted bribery from one of the players) and bought at Pimper's block by Daine. They worked for the Duke as warriors or administrators, some managed to shorten their slavery time. When again free, they already had made their life in the Raus county.

 

I already thought they could be slaves, some rebels or bandits just captured by a patrol and waiting for the next convoy to bring them to Pavis and then to Dorastor. A Humakti among the players should attract Daine's attention. If they refuse Duke Raus' proposal, there are on for a one way trip to the Land of Doom where they will be punished for having refused a campaign plot hook and reduced weeks of prep to nothing.

I like your alternate start, though.  

[Byll]

You could give your Duke Raus a redeeming feature such as being a philanthropist robber-baron who has earned the respect the Horn Gate Healers. One of the Chalana Arroys can Lightbringer Summons the party for the first installment, and them you could show them what a tough time the poor guy has with his wild motherless daughter.

[rust]

55 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

The point is I would prefer my character to die rather than work for a Lunar if I were playing a Sartarite exile or a Praxian... 

Well, but what would your character prefer ? 

Looking at our world's history, collaboration with a powerful conqueror was far more common than resistance to the death. Besides, collaboration can be the best way to prepare for resistance. I am thinking of people like Arminius, a Germanic noble who was sent to Rome as one of his tribe's hostages, became a decorated Roman army officer, returned to Germania as the aide and friend of the Roman governor - and lured three Roman legions into an ambush were they were utterly destroyed, the worst defeat the Romans ever suffered. Sure, he could have been "heroic" and preferred to die rather than work for the Romans ... 

[Questbird]

My characters' first exposure to the Zola Fel region was through the 'Troubled Waters' campaign in the River of Cradles supplement for RQ3, which was an excellent, if linear introduction to the people of Prax (which region I plucked from Glorantha and pasted into southern Nehwon, but that's by-the-by). There's even a introduction to Duke Raus along the way. After that campaign, and another set in the Dreamlands, and even an expedition to the Dyskund Caverns which set out from Raus' fort I tried to start the Borderlands campaign with them. However, whether because they were more experienced, or wealthier or had already had negative encounters with Lunars or whatever, Duke Raus (or perhaps more likely, his head honcho) rubbed them up the wrong way this time. We played the first adventure and patrolled as far as Horn Gate, then they parted ways with Duke Raus. I couldn't see the point in compelling them, so our adventures moved on (there were mysteries to explore in Horn Gate itself). 

Maybe Borderlands is better played as a first scenario, as you intended. Either the Borderlands or Troubled Waters campaigns are good introductions to the region and each provide new players with potential allies and enemies. Borderlands focuses on relationships between the nomads and Lunars, where Troubled Waters is more about the river folk themselves. Troubled Waters does expose the players sympathetically to some of the weirder non-humans such as newtlings, talking animals and agimori -- all of which are distrusted by Raus and his men. I will probably recycle the individual Borderlands scenarios for later use, or maybe run the campaign again with different characters in the future.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Questbird

[soltakss]

In our current campaign, I was planning on using Borderlands then using Troubled Waters to link with the River Voices. What we actually did was some of the Borderlands scenarios as part of a Sun County theme, then Troubled Waters, then Five Eyes Caverns to link with the River Voices.

They work well together, I think.

[Numtini]

Way back in the day, Borderlands came out when my characters were already rather hostile to the Lunars to say the least, so I had it set up that a Runelord in the exile underground requested they sign on with Raus and report back whatever they could about why he was exiled and if he was truly loyal to the Lunars or might sit out a rebellion.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Numtini

[Corvantir]

Thank you for all these new answers. More food for thought...

 

23 hours ago, rust said:

Well, but what would your character prefer ? 

Looking at our world's history, collaboration with a powerful conqueror was far more common than resistance to the death. Besides, collaboration can be the best way to prepare for resistance. I am thinking of people like Arminius, a Germanic noble who was sent to Rome as one of his tribe's hostages, became a decorated Roman army officer, returned to Germania as the aide and friend of the Roman governor - and lured three Roman legions into an ambush were they were utterly destroyed, the worst defeat the Romans ever suffered. Sure, he could have been "heroic" and preferred to die rather than work for the Romans ... 

When I say I would rather die, I try to put myself into the Praxian or Sartarite mindset. But I agree, I am too uncompromising and it tends to color the way I am playing my characters.

And another lesson from history that proves things are always a lot more complicated than what they seem to be at first sight.  

 

I have read good things about Troubled waters but I haven't read it so far. I think I should. I have not yet thought about the way I can insert these adventures into an ongoing campaign and I appreciate the tips.

As far as the Borderlands campaign is concerned I must admit that I am more comfortable with characters being given an underground mission or being slaves buying back their freedom rather than with characters deliberately working for Duke Raus for money.

I can also imagine characters fleeing something and taking this contract as a way to escape from an immediate threat.

Another solution could be to mix a few things: one character as a slave, another as a spy, one fugitive...

Edited June 28, 2016 by Corvantir

[rust]

13 minutes ago, Corvantir said:

Another solution could be to mix a few things: one character as a slave, another as a spy, one fugitive...

Looks like a good idea to me, because each of the characters would be unique, for example with unique skills, and so have his own "niche" in the campaign. 

[TRose]

Players could also be Yelmalio or other Sun Country types s Sun country is right next door. Zola Fel river worshippers also would have no problem working for him, same with Foundchild worshippers   or Basmoli, Zebra riders, or Yelornan types. So even Orlanthi wont work for him, there plenty of options.

[Aelwyn]

Maybe they don't know they're working for a Lunar. Duke Raus could hire them to perform a task through an intermediary, and they could find out later who their employer is. That might make for an interesting reveal. What do the characters do--go back on their word and betray the one who has already paid them, or swallow their pride and take the money? Or if things go south during the task, maybe they get rescued by Duke Raus, who reveals he was their employer--now they're doubly in his debt. If the players are curious about the person who has hired them, finding out who their employer is could be an adventure in itself.

[Sean_RDP]

Is it possible some of them could be Lunars, the characters I mean? Or is it a forgone conclusion or not an option? I admit my first blush with RQ and Glorantha was as a Lunar character and my POV differed from my companions quite a bit. And I get it; the Lunar Empire is supposed to be the big bad, but the most enjoyable campaigns for me have always been nuanced. 

I suppose my gut reaction is "Why wouldn't you want to work for a Lunar?" lol

[Corvantir]

17 hours ago, TRose said:

Players could also be Yelmalio or other Sun Country types s Sun country is right next door. Zola Fel river worshippers also would have no problem working for him, same with Foundchild worshippers   or Basmoli, Zebra riders, or Yelornan types. So even Orlanthi wont work for him, there plenty of options.

I already thought about Yelmalions, sold as mercenaries to the Duke, perhaps as a punishment for a wrong behavior... that would sound trivial to an Orlanthi.

At first I would say it is better to play a Sun Domer when you know the setting better. But I must admit that Sun County could be a very good starting point. It is a small start and there would be a rather limited amount of background to digest. It can even be linked to Shadows on the Borderland. Hmm...

For the rest, I know most Sable riders would have no problem with it, but as far as Lunars are concerned I would have bet the Zebra riders were like the other Praxians.

I should have a look at the Basmoli and the other cults you mentioned, I don't know them well enough it seems. Thanks for the tips.  

[Corvantir]

16 hours ago, ReignDragonSMH said:

Is it possible some of them could be Lunars, the characters I mean? Or is it a forgone conclusion or not an option? I admit my first blush with RQ and Glorantha was as a Lunar character and my POV differed from my companions quite a bit. And I get it; the Lunar Empire is supposed to be the big bad, but the most enjoyable campaigns for me have always been nuanced. 

I suppose my gut reaction is "Why wouldn't you want to work for a Lunar?" lol

I know that I will one day run a Lunar campaign as I am sure it can be a blast. But at this time, it would require a lot more work than using a ready made campaign. 

[Noita]

Players could be fellow exiles from the empire, Orlanthi from Saird for example.

[Corvantir]

12 hours ago, Iskallor said:

Players could be fellow exiles from the empire, Orlanthi from Saird for example.

I must admit I have very few knowledge of this area of Glorantha, as a whole my knowledge of the Lunar lands is rather limited. Saird is among the numerous areas I should have a better look at.

Thank you everyone for all your helpful and interesting suggestions. I will take some notes this weekend for a later brainstorm over that. Borderlands and beyond is becoming a valid option.   

Now comes the tougher part, choosing between the Colymar campaign and Borderlands and Beyond...  

[Mankcam]

What was the nominal date for the Borderlands campaign? I remember that RQ3 used 1621, although I think RQ2 may have used 1623.

I am hazy and dont have my books handy, but would this campaign be much different if played in  CRQ4's nominal date of 1627?

Sartar will have been liberated by Agrarth, and doesnt he liberate Pavis & Prax as well?

 

[metcalph]

The Borderlands is dated 1615 (Pavis:Gateway to Adventure p45) as Raus has just arrived.  

[Corvantir]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Borderlands is dated 1615 (Pavis:Gateway to Adventure p45) as Raus has just arrived.  

The year of the Borderlands and Beyond adventures is the main reason why I am interested in this campaign. I think it would be easier to introduce my players to Glorantha with the Colymar campaign, because it is designed for that. But starting earlier would be a good way to introduce the setting without spoiling too many things. If I run Borderlands and Beyond after the Colymar campaign, the players will know a lot of things that have not yet happen. It would not be dramatic neither, but I think they and I will appreciate the surprises...  

Edited July 1, 2016 by Corvantir