Designing RuneQuest, part 10

[Mankcam]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

Morokanth are one of the Five Great Tribes of Prax and can be found anywhere Praxians can be found. And since Argrath has a large Praxian army, that means that they can be found in Dragon Pass. The Morokanth are non-human, but of Praxian culture, making them eminently playable (different but approachable).

Normal Mostali make about as good of player characters as dragonewts, which is to say, they make lousy player characters. Mostali culture is very alien to human cultures, individual mostali are immortal, xenophobic in the extreme, atheistic, and pretty much never leave their mines (except Iron Dwarves). There's enough information in there that if someone really really wants to play a broken mostali, they can, but I'd rather focus on the more broadly playable species.

I agree that Mostali certainly make difficult player-characters; indeed Aldryami and most of the Elder Races are quite alien in Glorantha, and in my experience they all tend to be better used as NPCs unless the players are well versed in Gloranthan lore. 

However we did have fun playing Uz when Trollpak came out

I was just surprised as I thought that the core book may have mirrored the same Races that were presented in the G2G Book 1.

[Jeff]

Trolls are definitely playable. I got "Creating a Dark Troll Adventurer", "Creating a Great Troll Adventurer", and "Creating a Trollkin Adventurer" materials.

[jongjom]

In all the design of RuneQuest sounds very good. 

A concern is the large number of short cult write ups (17) and homelands (6) might create a wall of information for new players. Does it risk the RQ3 Gods Of Glorantha problem (e.g. the loss of depth that made CoP & CoT so much fun - each had fewer cults and each was set in one 'homeland')?

Having a slimmer rule book might be less intimidating. Especially when you're asking the reader to take two very different concepts on board: a quantitative rule system and qualitative mythical bronze age world.

It would be good to know what 'novice' players think of the completed book.

 

[Jeff]

Keep in mind, there will be a Cults of Dragon Pass book, with the long writeups as done in CoP & CoT, but for 40+ cults. But that is a later project.

[g33k]

56 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Keep in mind, there will be a Cults of Dragon Pass book, with the long writeups as done in CoP & CoT, but for 40+ cults. But that is a later project.

So, in addition to "KoDP" there will later be "CoDP" ...  <heh>

I've gotta say:  this may not be a 100% "made to my personal order" RPG, but (based on what I've seen) it's so close to that as makes no never mind.  SO PSYCHED.

 

[styopa]

Agree with omitting Mostali generally as a easily-played race, sorry.

While they're sort of the expected-fantasy-canon (if we have elves, we have to have dwarves, right? TOLKIEN SAID SO!)  their worldview is/should be perhaps the most alien of the elder races.

The unfortunate fact is that when you have a game with actually well-realized sapient races, the hurdle to playing them authentically gets that much higher.  Then again, who hasn't had the party where it's "a dwarf, an elf, a dragonewt, a troll, and a human all walk into the tavern...." where some of the fancy-pants authenticity is just simply ignored for MGF?

[smiorgan]

9 hours ago, Jeff said:

Morokanth are one of the Five Great Tribes of Prax and can be found anywhere Praxians can be found. And since Argrath has a large Praxian army, that means that they can be found in Dragon Pass. The Morokanth are non-human, but of Praxian culture, making them eminently playable (different but approachable).

Normal Mostali make about as good of player characters as dragonewts, which is to say, they make lousy player characters. Mostali culture is very alien to human cultures, individual mostali are immortal, xenophobic in the extreme, atheistic, and pretty much never leave their mines (except Iron Dwarves). There's enough information in there that if someone really really wants to play a broken mostali, they can, but I'd rather focus on the more broadly playable species.

There was a time when you were content. Attending to your duties, repairing the World's Machine. You knew what had to be done. And what had to be avoided: mistakes above all! But something happened. Suddenly, something was wrong with you. You were an Error. You were Broken. You wanted to know who you were. You weren't happy being a gear in the World's Machine. You wanted to be you, to be alive. You wanted to feel alive.  Now you are out in the big scary alive world out there. There is no place were you fit. You are a square peg in a round hole.

I'd play such a character right now! Challenging because he/she has no community were he belongs. But surely has a reason for adventuring. Become someone!

As for the Morokanth, dunno... You are an intelligent overweight tapir who regards humans as cattle (or more correctly herds quasi-humans from the Planet of the Apes) and would like to have an opposable thumb... Sounds cool. But I don't find it inherently more approachable than the misfit dwarf.

 

  

[Mankcam]

Well I probably would have preferred a focus on a wider range of human cultures in the core book, and would have expected Elder Races player backgrounds to be covered in other supplements down the track.

Not that I am unhappy at all, but that would of been how I would have approached the core book.

I do like the three book format, especially in a slipcase. There is something appealing about not referring to a large tome at the gaming table.

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by Mankcam

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, smiorgan said:

You weren't happy being a gear in the World's Machine. You wanted to be you, to be alive. You wanted to feel alive.  Now you are out in the big scary alive world out there. There is no place were you fit. You are a square peg in a round hole.

And now you realize that the uz want to eat you, the humans want to steal what you know, and the mostali are coming for you for you are broken and must be repaired or recycled.  And worst of all, the chaos of growth is everywhere around you.  There is chaos in every single part of the World Machine!  And you are very, very alone.

Edited July 28, 2016 by jajagappa

[Falconer]

10 hours ago, styopa said:

(if we have elves, we have to have dwarves, right? TOLKIEN SAID SO!)

The flip side of this is when a player in your Apple Lane game asks you if he can play a dwarf, and you say no, because CHAOSIUM SAID SO.

RQ1/RQ2 actually are very explicit about allowing dwarf characters, that they often travel on the surface to gain experience and treasure, that parties of them can be encountered, that they raid elf woods and troll areas, that they pawn items to Gringle and detect slopes in the Rainbow Mounds. They hate elves and trolls, and they are avaricious, and they are artificers who invented iron and stuff, but these characteristics are hardly alien (they are straight out of Tolkien). I presume deeper Gloranthan lore doesn’t exactly contradict all this so much as add more facts about them that make them stranger. I get that RQ = BRP Glorantha, but, I would sort of assume the core book would still be pretty lite on Gloranthan lore.

If not, that’s cool, that’s what RQ Classic is for, I guess!

[g33k]

8 minutes ago, Falconer said:

The flip side of this is when a player in your Apple Lane game asks you if he can play a dwarf, and you say no, because CHAOSIUM SAID SO.

RQ1/RQ2 actually are very explicit about allowing dwarf characters, that they often travel on the surface to gain experience and treasure, that parties of them can be encountered, that they raid elf woods and troll areas, that they pawn items to Gringle and detect slopes in the Rainbow Mounds. They hate elves and trolls, and they are avaricious, and they are artificers who invented iron and stuff, but these characteristics are hardly alien (they are straight out of Tolkien). I presume deeper Gloranthan lore doesn’t exactly contradict all this so much as add more facts about them that make them stranger. I get that RQ = BRP Glorantha, but, I would sort of assume the core book would still be pretty lite on Gloranthan lore.

If not, that’s cool, that’s what RQ Classic is for, I guess!

It comes down to this, I think:  does a player who wants "a Dwarf PC" want to play a Gloranthan Dwarf?  Or do they want one from Middle Earth, or the Forgotten Realms?  The ME/FR "Dwarf" kind of doesn't exist in Glorantha (afaik).  YGMV of course!  But the "not a generic Euro-Medieval Pastiche" vibe of Glorantha is part of why I like it, and adding the Germano-Nordic/Tolkienesque style of "Dwarf" veers radically away from (my) Glorantha, back toward... that other stuff.

Don't get me wrong!  I actually *LIKE* that generic Euro-Medieval Pastiche stuff (and LOTR holds pride of place as my most-read story).  I regard Greenwood's Realms to be a creation of similar scope and magnificence as Stafford's Glorantha.  But I like 'em separate... First, my steak & mushrooms with garlic & peppercorns; then my chocolate malt shake.  If you offered me the same meal all puree'd as a single smoothie in a blender... I rather expect that I would be already full, ThankYouVeryMuch!

This discussion leads me to realize that my upcoming "Apple Date Palm Lane --> Borderlands" campaign needs some side-adventures ready-to roll, that highlight the alien-ness of most of the Elder Races, to help my players understand that -- in Glorantha -- they probably don't want to play Dwarves / Elves / Dragonewts.  In keeping with the "yes, and..." philosophy of GM'ing, I think that if one of my players asks for an Elder Race PC, my answer will be "Yes, and I've got an adventure coming up where <desired Elder Race> features prominently, so you can see the Gloranthan take on them; if that race is what you want, you can bring in your new PC as we wrap up that adventure."

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Mankcam said:

I do like the three book format, especially in a slipcase. There is something appealing about not referring to a large tome at the gaming table.

Emphatically agreed!  I regularly have different people simultaneously wanting two or more of those different books (in the D&D context); or when it's all in a single-volume core book, more people simultaneously wanting to look at something in the rules than there are copies at the table.

Having them AS different books at the table is a major asset!

[Mankcam]

57 minutes ago, Falconer said:

The flip side of this is when a player in your Apple Lane game asks you if he can play a dwarf, and you say no, because CHAOSIUM SAID SO.

RQ1/RQ2 actually are very explicit about allowing dwarf characters, that they often travel on the surface to gain experience and treasure, that parties of them can be encountered, that they raid elf woods and troll areas, that they pawn items to Gringle and detect slopes in the Rainbow Mounds. They hate elves and trolls, and they are avaricious, and they are artificers who invented iron and stuff, but these characteristics are hardly alien (they are straight out of Tolkien). I presume deeper Gloranthan lore doesn’t exactly contradict all this so much as add more facts about them that make them stranger. I get that RQ = BRP Glorantha, but, I would sort of assume the core book would still be pretty lite on Gloranthan lore.

If not, that’s cool, that’s what RQ Classic is for, I guess!

Elder Races have been significantly different since RQ2. Back then the actual RQ2 Core Book included pictures of Tolkienesque Elves and very goblinoid looking Trolls.

The Dwarves were alsl very Tolkienesque, considering the artwork in Griffin Mountain.

I think I remember the troll depictions changing first with the Big Rubble and Trollpak boxes. Then in RQ3 the Elves started being depicted more as 'plant people'.

Mostali have been pretty much depicted as Tolkienesque Dwarves, although by RQ3 we were aware of how different they think compared to humans.

However the most recent depictions of Mostali are in the G2G, and there isnt any trace of Tolkien's influence there, they look more like Brian Froud's creations.

So the portrayal of Elder Races has changed dramatically since RQ2

[Jeff]

Well since the RQ2 rulebook. Greg's big Mostali piece in Different Worlds 24 (including his "Why I dislike Mostali" article) dates to 1982, so it is not like any of this is new.

[Mankcam]

I was just referencing how the Dwarves were presented in the RQ2 corebook and Griffin Mountain. After that Greg must have sured up his thoughts on them and presented such through fanzines etc but it was the RQ3 Elder Races box and RQ3 Gods of Glorantha where I first came across the real concept of Mostali.

Even though the cultural descriptions have been in place for some time, they have always looked like Tolkienesque Dwarves until recently. The G2G artwork is a big departure from many previous visual depictions.

I greatly prefer the contemporary visuals, as this stops drawing comparisons to standard high fantasy dwarves, and makes the Mostali uniquely Gloranthan.

If I want Tolkien's dwarves then I'll play The One Ring rpg instead

Not that I actually want to play Mostali, but they make great background NPCs, very weird little things

 

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Mankcam said:

Not that I actually want to play Mostali, but they make great background NPCs, very weird little things

Yes. As do dragonewts. Neither make good PCs without a fair amount of work from the GM (which is why no "Creating Dragonewt Adventurers" or "Creating Mostali Adventurers" sections are in the Bestiary. The Elder Races aren't just "us" in different shapes - they are fundamentally non-human in a way that none of the Tolkien "races" are. 

[g33k]

And speaking of (by way of "the images in") GtG ...  I know that a reprint has been announced, but I believe that the plan is to print all the StretchGoals for the RQClassic Kickstarter, before reprinting GtG.  Is that correct?  Does that push the "probable GrG reprint timeframe" off to very-late 2016, then?  Might I hope for a bulky, angular lump in my Xmas stocking?

 

[Rick Meints]

10 hours ago, g33k said:

And speaking of (by way of "the images in") GtG ...  I know that a reprint has been announced, but I believe that the plan is to print all the StretchGoals for the RQClassic Kickstarter, before reprinting GtG.  Is that correct?  Does that push the "probable GrG reprint timeframe" off to very-late 2016, then?  Might I hope for a bulky, angular lump in my Xmas stocking?

 

The Guide to Glorantha is currently being reprinted. It will be available this year. I do not give a specific month on purpose, so please don't ask for one. 

[styopa]

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

Well since the RQ2 rulebook. Greg's big Mostali piece in Different Worlds 24 (including his "Why I dislike Mostali" article) dates to 1982, so it is not like any of this is new.

No, just sort of contradicted cf. Elder Secrets box set book 2: the text certainly discussed a lot of the conceptual details of Mostali as later conceived by Greg, but the (Dobyski) pictures were still a bearded guy with a blunderbuss.  Picture > 1000 words.

I'd suspect that Elder Secrets was far more widely read/absorbed than a single issue of Different Worlds.

FWIW, it seems that article "Why I dislike Mostali" may have once been up at Glorantha.com (http://www.glorantha.com/library/elder/dwarfs-dislike.html), I can't seem to find it now.

But thankfully, the internet never forgets: https://web.archive.org/web/20090808104838/http://www.glorantha.com/library/elder/dwarfs-dislike.html (full article available)

...

Everything which the dwarfs do is rigid and mechanical, unwilling to bend even in the face of necessity. This sort of action would make any normal human into a twisted psychological wreck, but for dwarfs it is their very inner nature. I cannot find it easy to begrudge an entire race of intelligent beings simply because their inner nature makes them disagreeable, so I do it with difficulty. I find their obsession with the mundane world to be pathetic, as if they are more interested in the rules of the game than the roles of the world. Their iron-bound attitudes make them all act like NPCs, even if they seem to have the chance to do otherwise. ...

...which essentially boils down to Greg being a complete free spirit, and Dwarves are "a drag, man".  I'd argue his later comment that " The few real Mostali who seem happy and free are called 'outlaws' ..." is astonishingly (surprisingly, for Greg) solipsist in its definition of "happy".

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

The Guide to Glorantha is currently being reprinted. It will be available this year. I do not give a specific month on purpose, so please don't ask for one. 

Hey, COOL!  I hadn't realized it was actually being worked-on, instead of just "on the map, down the road a bit."

Yeah, I totally understand not being willing/able to set a specific time; too many variables outside your control, got it.  I'm just thrilled to learn that it has reached the "actively working on" stage!

How do we get enqueued for notification when it gets close?  I bumped up my RQ:Classic KS pledge to the AAA/GtG bundle ... does that automatically get me notified?  Or ... ?

 

[Rick Meints]

To leave no doubt in anyone's mind, the Guide isn't being "worked on". It is at the printers going through its file reviews and then the printing presses roll. I want to state this to avoid ANY confusion over whether this is a revised book, or a straight reprint. This is a reprint. We fixed a name in the credits, added a name to the credits, updated the copyright date, and that's about it. Thus, this is basically a reprint. We are not revising any gloranthan content. This is not a revised edition, or a second edition, etc.

Since it is being printed in China, we will let people know when it is on the cargo ship and headed towards our various fulfillment warehouses. We MAY take pre-orders when we feel the time is right. Since it will be shipped to customers from our warehouses in the US, the UK, Australia, and Canada, many overseas customers will be paying less for shipping. We have not decided on the retail price yet. The price may very well be higher because of inflation, etc. We do not know if it will be sold in game stores because most game stores are hesitant to stock RPG related books that are HUGE and relatively expensive. If you are planning on buying the Guide this time around, we suggest you plan on buying it direct from Chaosium. That will be the way to get it the fastest.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Rick Meints
typo

[g33k]

Thank you for the clarification, Rick!  Sorry for the way I phrased it -- when I said "worked-on," I literally meant WORK, as in "has received / is receiving man-hours of effort to get the reprint done."  I (very much) DO realize that it's not a 10-minute "call the printer and tell them it's a go" project, even if it's "merely" a reprint...  it still needs "work."  I hadn't thought (and apologize for my phrasing!) that you were in ANY way "revising" it.

Nevertheless, I am selfishly glad that my oops has prompted this additional detail... it's WONDERFUL news, and alongside my deep (and genuinely heartfelt) apologies, I offer even-deeper thanks!

 

[styopa]

6 hours ago, Rick Meints said:

If you are planning on buying the Guide this time around, we suggest you plan on buying it direct from Chaosium. That will be the way to get it the fastest.

I can only say, it's a magnificent work of fantasy worldbuilding, whether you use it to play in Glorantha or not.  The art is some of the best fantasy art I've *ever* seen, and the fact that it's not just some 'crap the artist made up' but in fact is (in every case) instructional, illustrating some facet of Gloranthan life, myth, or culture is just pure bonus.  I think every time I brows through the book I find new stuff that's fascinating.

 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

I can only say, it's a magnificent work of fantasy worldbuilding, whether you use it to play in Glorantha or not.  The art is some of the best fantasy art I've *ever* seen, and the fact that it's not just some 'crap the artist made up' but in fact is (in every case) instructional, illustrating some facet of Gloranthan life, myth, or culture is just pure bonus.  I think every time I brows through the book I find new stuff that's fascinating.

 

<drools some more>

DAMMITALL, STYOPA!  I've already killed 2 keyboards drooling over GtG !  Don't you make me kill another one!  

[Nick J.]

As somebody who is a very late comer to Runequest, I'm glad to hear Guide to Glorantha is getting a reprint. My wallet on the other hand? ...