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M Helsdon

Swords of Central Genertela

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11 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This might be a bit of an aside, but I used to dabble in military history, and the general gist of it is that before the invention of the stirrups....

I've run into the same. The prevailing theory used to be that no stirrups and raised saddle = no couched lances, but some recent reenactment (Warhorse: Calvary in Ancient Warfare, by Phil Sidnell), on the effectiveness of some historical calvary appears to disprove this. From what I've read it appears the spear was used more cross body, which would reduce the impact force on the rider, and spread it out more evenly across his body. It would also reduce the impact force on the target, but for him it was still concentrated in a small area.

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I know from experience that the overarm thrust with the spear in foot combat is basically futile. I'd expect horsemen to be using underarm thrusts at least as much as overarm. But that's different from the couched lance of the stereotypical charging lancer. The Kontos (Xyston) was, I gather, used two-handed. Seems like an inherently unstable fighting approach even with horned saddles, but Alexander's cavalry dominated many battlefields, so there must've been something to it...

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45 minutes ago, womble said:

I know from experience that the overarm thrust with the spear in foot combat is basically futile. I'd expect horsemen to be using underarm thrusts at least as much as overarm. But that's different from the couched lance of the stereotypical charging lancer. The Kontos (Xyston) was, I gather, used two-handed. Seems like an inherently unstable fighting approach even with horned saddles, but Alexander's cavalry dominated many battlefields, so there must've been something to it...

That's what the Sidnell points out. Hi stoically calvary as effective as shock troops long before the introduction of the stirrup and raised saddle, so there must have been something to it. 

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Latest... reworked. The next one will probably take four or five days...

The small ones are only vaguely to the same scale, as I reduce the originals significantly to get them all on one 'page'.

 

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 12:55 AM, Lord High Munchkin said:

As to the archer, my only criticism is actually the degree of twist you have in his lower leg, his foot should be pointing more downwards. The shin might be a tad too long as well.

The shoulder is fine given the armour is covering the shoulder joint and that it's obscuring our view of it. The elbow might go up and out a bit though.

On a related topic, without looking it up (and off the top of my head), is the wasp rider a bit too big, given that they are pygmies (if they are, that is)?

Came to the conclusion that the leg was too large and wrong, before admitting that the shooting position was suspect, so the entire archer has been redrawn and merged with the horse (I tend to draw rider, mount and reins separately, the latter on tracing paper, so that a disaster with one doesn't result in everything being thrown away). Usually start drawing the face, then the hands, because if those go wrong the image isn't going to improve.

The Wasp Rider doesn't have any reference point for size, though I believe the Giant Wasps are about the size of a small horse. In the book the image appears thus:

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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The arm looks way better; However the shin is still really twisted and the foot too rotated back - a suggestion bight be to try getting in a similar position and looking in a mirror. The upper leg is probably too short, or more correctly, thin now....

I do realise that these things are hard, and you likely don't have a model handy, and my comments are "smart-arsed" given I paint portraits for a living. I should say that personally I have only once painted a rider (dismounted) and horse (the horse was almost all right thigh and buttock), but it was an 11'x8½' life-size.

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:06 PM, Lord High Munchkin said:

The arm looks way better; However the shin is still really twisted and the foot too rotated back - a suggestion bight be to try getting in a similar position and looking in a mirror. The upper leg is probably too short, or more correctly, thin now....

I see what you mean - a reworked version below. The upper leg is, I hope, truncated by the seating position, and partially covered by the robe. Deliberating if I can make that more obvious with shading...

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:06 PM, Lord High Munchkin said:

I do realise that these things are hard, and you likely don't have a model handy, and my comments are "smart-arsed" given I paint portraits for a living. I should say that personally I have only once painted a rider (dismounted) and horse (the horse was almost all right thigh and buttock), but it was an 11'x8½' life-size.

Not at all. Drawing someone mounted brings its own set of problems, which is why, until recently, I've avoided drawing them. As you are only having to draw one leg (in this position) it ought to be easier, but of course there's added perspective, and the issue of a seat which isn't level. This horse archer is riding in the ancient Hyaloring style - no saddle or pad, just a woven leather saddle 'cloth'. A saddle might ease the drawing, as it would be more level, but wouldn't match what I was attempting to illustrate. [Not all Hyaloring saddle cloths are woven leather - it's just what I decided to draw.]

Just noticed that the two tassels should be of a size... Corrected, but not shown here.

 

Edited by M Helsdon
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10 minutes ago, Lord High Munchkin said:

I have done a small bit of dirty alteration to show what I meant about the leg (and lowered the torso). It's very subtle, but alters the angle of the leg.

 

Rider.jpg

Yes, concur regarding the leg; not so sure about the torso? Will see what I can do tomorrow.

Started sketching out the next one, which will the largest yet, but not, initially, involving any human anatomy.

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I think part of the problem people are having with the leg is that the pattern on the trews makes it look a lot spindlier than it is.At this zoom level, it's more apparent that there's a hamstring.

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2 minutes ago, womble said:

I think part of the problem people are having with the leg is that the pattern on the trews makes it look a lot spindlier than it is.At this zoom level, it's more apparent that there's a hamstring.

Possible, though this is a little larger than it appears in the 'book'. Now working on the next sketch, which is very... different.

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Would it be reasonable to change the 'shady' underside of the thigh so the textile pattern doesn't 'blend' it into the saddlecloth background? Make the pattern just a narrow band down the outside of the leg, kind of thing? That increased contrast level might help the leg stand out on smaller renditions.

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On ‎12‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 11:16 PM, womble said:

Would it be reasonable to change the 'shady' underside of the thigh so the textile pattern doesn't 'blend' it into the saddlecloth background? Make the pattern just a narrow band down the outside of the leg, kind of thing? That increased contrast level might help the leg stand out on smaller renditions.

I've altered it a little. [Note the mini version just posted doesn't include the latest modifications to the horse archer.]

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2 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

Still a few more crew to add to the latest...

thirty smaller.png

That's quite a high tower rather than a howda, and even with those chains to the throat and under the tail I don't think that it will be very stable. More a mobile siege tower than an armored skirmisher platform, with the Thunderbeast serving as the ram against non-stone fortifications.

I  think that the ancient Dara Happan version (possibly on a different type of saurian, e.g. Stegosaurus?) had a lower outer gallery for archers and a high central podium for the sun priests, a mobile ziggurat.

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23 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's quite a high tower rather than a howda, and even with those chains to the throat and under the tail I don't think that it will be very stable. More a mobile siege tower than an armored skirmisher platform, with the Thunderbeast serving as the ram against non-stone fortifications.

I  think that the ancient Dara Happan version (possibly on a different type of saurian, e.g. Stegosaurus?) had a lower outer gallery for archers and a high central podium for the sun priests, a mobile ziggurat.

Yes, you're right Joerg. I should just give up. [This was actually an illustration for the Fortifications chapter, as darvan are mentioned as being used as mobile siege engines.]

Sorry folks, no more sketches will appear here.

Edited by M Helsdon
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I hope the feedback isn't frustrating you, Helsdon. I've been watching some of the comments, and to me some of the issues mentioned seem quite negligible, but it's one of those things were nitpicks can get really finicky because it feels so close to just right. Putting up resketch after resketch might not feel that rewarding, artistically, but I hope it's not discouraging you from the project itself.

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2 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

I hope the feedback isn't frustrating you, Helsdon. I've been watching some of the comments, and to me some of the issues mentioned seem quite negligible, but it's one of those things were nitpicks can get really finicky because it feels so close to just right. Putting up resketch after resketch might not feel that rewarding, artistically, but I hope it's not discouraging you from the project itself.

@M Helsdon Yes, don't let this drag you down Martin! It is a wonderful work you've done and I do hope it will be published, as I look forward to buying and reading it. I'm sure the publishing process is frustrating for an author, but I'm also positive that it isn't as frustrating as facing the fan base! :) 

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@M Helsdon Your work has been great; it all helps so much with the immersion of Glorantha. I love the creativity we see at times within this forum, and appreciate anything that makes this setting come alive 😁

Edited by Mankcam

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Sorry people: the last few days have not been good with major real world issues, compounded, I now know, by my arthritis resuming after being in remission for more than a year, possibly triggered by colder and wet weather.

No drawing likely today: instead some notes on Pentan herds and kerts, neither of which might seem relevant to warfare, but different herds will require different migration patterns as many of the herd animals are not well suited to Pentan winters. Horses are far better adapted than cattle and sheep...

Here's the latest with annotation. There's a smaller battlefield version as an illustration for the Army Lists, with an unmanned howdah.

Chapter

Number of sketches

Additional sketches

required

Introduction

0

0

Fundamentals of Warfare

0

6-8

Arms and Armor

10

0

Regional Warfare

18

1-2

The Battlefield

16

0

Transport and Mobility

0

0

Fortifications and Siege Warfare

1

0

Arcane Warfare  

3

0

Gods of War

0

0

Armies of Central Genertela

0

0-2

Hero Wars Army Lists

41 miniatures

 

Appendices

0

0

Darvan siege tower.png

Edited by M Helsdon
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